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Re: [bolger] Gypsy won't track

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  • Paul Thober
    I had the same problem with my Nymph - if I stopped rowing with the oars out of the water it would spin right around. I added the skeg shown in the plans and
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 6, 2006
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      I had the same problem with my Nymph - if I stopped rowing with the oars out of the water it would spin right around. I added the skeg shown in the plans and this greatly improved the tracking.

      That having been said, I have also built a Gypsy and found it very easy to row, it does not need a skeg, IMHO. I would guess the problem is your rowing technique and/or the trim of the boat.

      Paul

      Mike <skiffsalor2000@...> wrote: I took my Gypsy out today for a couple of hours after work. The
      wind didn't cooperate but I had a few moments (never enough).
      Coming back to the dock I had to row it. I guess it is the river
      current or wind or both but that boat will not go in a straight
      line. I dug one oar in and then another trying to make it track.

      I have read other posts that say you need a skeg to make it track.
      I really don't see how a 4" - 5" skeg is going to keep this boat on
      line. It spins in a 360 if you let it. The only way to stop it -
      dig one oar in. Adding a skeg will mean putting a small false keel
      behind the last bulkhead. I don't think that will look too good but
      I know I can screw in a skeg to 1/4" plywood either.

      I remember reading Payson's book that one of his buddies rowed a
      Gypsy 100 miles in Maine. I wondered about that feat today when I
      was trying to make 1/2 mile or less back to the boat dock - what a
      struggle. Any ideas for an easy skeg for this boat will likely be
      used.

      Mike





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    • Waldo F. Odonahue
      1) Anyone here build a Windermere? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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        1) Anyone here build a Windermere?



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bryant Owen
        Peter Lenihan is as close to launching his Windermere as $($*& is to swearing. Peter? Bryant - sometimes envious not being on the shores of the St Lawrence.
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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          Peter Lenihan is as close to launching his Windermere as $($*& is to
          swearing. Peter?

          Bryant - sometimes envious not being on the shores of the St Lawrence.

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...> wrote:
          >
          > 1) Anyone here build a Windermere?
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • john h wright
          Robert, Got to jump in here. May I suggest that you may be trying to fix something that may not need it. Before you start changing things just shift some of
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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            Robert,
            Got to jump in here. May I suggest that you may be trying to fix
            something that may not need it. Before you start changing things just
            shift some of the weight aft. If you don't have anything in the boat
            find something like a 10 year old kid that needs a ride and put him at
            the stern. He will have fun and you might have an easy fix. I have a
            little 8' FG dingy that I rescued from a junk yard for $10 and rebuilt a
            few year ago. Nice looking boat but short. I rowed 8 miles down the
            river last week end. I put my grand son in the stern and it sat too low
            but tracked well so I moved him just in front of me and the boat did not
            track as well but was a faster. Should have taken a bigger cooler or a
            small dog. More fun than fixin.

            John
          • gbship
            ... Hear, hear! That little skeg does make a huge difference in the ability to control a boat like Gypsy under oars -- it keeps the stern from swinging all
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
              >
              > I guess that I have a contrary view about this. In my experience,
              > (Which is considerable; I have lost track of how many Bolger boats I
              > have built, around ten): every time I have deviated from his design,
              > trying to 'improve it', I have regretted the change, often for
              > surprising reasons. This would be especially true for something as
              > major as changing the lateral plane, or 'improving' the rowing
              > capability. Remember that Phil Bolger had several decades of
              > experience designing and using row boats when he designed Gypsy and it
              > is safe to say that he knew what he was doing when he designed her the
              > way he did.
              >
              Hear, hear! That little skeg does make a huge difference in the ability
              to control a boat like Gypsy under oars -- it keeps the stern from
              swinging all over the place. In BWAOM Bolger writes about one of his
              powerboats with this general shape (but larger) and notes that it will
              blow sideways in the slightest puff because of the lack of lateral
              resistance (I think he equipped it with a smallc enterboard for that
              reason). Jim Michalak has written that his small sailboats are designed
              not only with a skeg but so that the leeboard is immersed a couple
              inches when rowing to improve tracking. If you don't want a skeg,
              you'll have to rig a way to center the tiller with the rudder a few
              inches in the water, and maybe also the daggerboard down a few inches.
              She ain't going to be a worthwile rower without some form of lateral
              resistance. FWIW, I suspect the skep also improves handling when broad
              reaching or running, especially in strong winds, when you have the
              daggerboard mostly or entirely out of the water.

              Gary Blankenship
            • Mike
              ... experience, ... boats I ... design, ... as ... and it ... her the ... ability ... his ... will ... that ... designed Boaters: I appreciate your
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" <gbship@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I guess that I have a contrary view about this. In my
                experience,
                > > (Which is considerable; I have lost track of how many Bolger
                boats I
                > > have built, around ten): every time I have deviated from his
                design,
                > > trying to 'improve it', I have regretted the change, often for
                > > surprising reasons. This would be especially true for something
                as
                > > major as changing the lateral plane, or 'improving' the rowing
                > > capability. Remember that Phil Bolger had several decades of
                > > experience designing and using row boats when he designed Gypsy
                and it
                > > is safe to say that he knew what he was doing when he designed
                her the
                > > way he did.
                > >
                > Hear, hear! That little skeg does make a huge difference in the
                ability
                > to control a boat like Gypsy under oars -- it keeps the stern from
                > swinging all over the place. In BWAOM Bolger writes about one of
                his
                > powerboats with this general shape (but larger) and notes that it
                will
                > blow sideways in the slightest puff because of the lack of lateral
                > resistance (I think he equipped it with a smallc enterboard for
                that
                > reason). Jim Michalak has written that his small sailboats are
                designed

                Boaters:

                I appreciate your considerable experience and will try to put the
                centerboard down or rig the rudder amidships before I try to add a
                skeg. I have another boat, a little plywood pram, 9'6" and beamy.
                A slow sailer but it must really bite the water because it is
                heavy. It also has a semi-vee bottom and a skeg. I have taken that
                boat up and down the river in all kinds of current and wind
                conditions with no problems whatsoever. I remember the little
                kicker dying on me once. The DNR man asked me how I was going to
                get back to the dock with no motor. I said - no problem, all I need
                are the oars and this was in about a 10 knot current in early
                spring. He was concerned, I was not.

                I think after reading your comments, Gypsy is light for the lenght
                and has that flat bottom. I was in a flat bottom Coleman canoe once
                in Canada during a windy day and I was going sideways with no chance
                of making it back to my cabin. I guess it is the same thing.

                Gypsy is not weaving a little hear and there - it is fishtailing all
                over the place. Thanks for the suggestions.

                Mike
              • Christopher C. Wetherill
                Gypsy is not weaving a little hear and there - it is fishtailing all over the place. This points me to the boat being trimmed by the bow If the bow is
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                  "Gypsy is not weaving a little hear and there - it is fishtailing all
                  over the place."


                  This points me to the boat being trimmed "by the bow" If the bow is deeper
                  than the stern, the boat will be directionally unstable and seek to yaw
                  around and go stern first. When I was young I had a poorly designed dinghy
                  that would not track because the stern was higher than the bow. It would
                  only work if I rowed it backwards, sitting normally and pushing the oars
                  rather than pulling them. Before you do any physical mods try rowing stern
                  first and see if the boat can be controlled that way. If so, check out
                  changing the weight distribution as recommended in a previous post.

                  In his book Build the New Instant Boats, Harold Payson credits Gypsy as "an
                  excellent rower that tracked well, even without a skeg"

                  V/R
                  Chris





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                • Waldo F. Odonahue
                  Is Peter building the trawler version? Actually trying to find an affordable source for quality 2V industrial batteries - I would need 12 for the trawler
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
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                    Is Peter building the trawler version? Actually trying to find an affordable source for quality 2V industrial batteries - I would need 12 for the trawler version.

                    As well I need to find a source for affordable prices on Yamaha outboards. Has anyone ever used a formal tendering process to buy an outboard?



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Peter Lenihan
                    ... Yes.....but not yet finished. Are you interested in building one too? Fire away with the questions,if you please :-) Sincerely, Peter Lenihan
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 17, 2006
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > 1) Anyone here build a Windermere?


                      Yes.....but not yet finished.
                      Are you interested in building one too?
                      Fire away with the questions,if you please :-)


                      Sincerely,

                      Peter Lenihan
                    • Peter Lenihan
                      ... No.Peter is just about finished building the live-a-board sedan version. He did not know that the trawler version was available yet. Actually trying to
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 17, 2006
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Is Peter building the trawler version?

                        No.Peter is just about finished building the live-a-board sedan
                        version. He did not know that the "trawler version" was available yet.



                        Actually trying to find an affordable source for quality 2V
                        industrial batteries - I would need 12 for the trawler version.

                        Peter has 12 batteries also,per plan, but may be replacing their
                        weight with lead and going with a smaller battery bank combined with
                        solar panels after a nice long conversation with Jean Gauthier of soon-
                        to-be-launched AS-39 Le Cabotin fame. He has no source
                        for"affordable,quality" batteries.....hence his inclination to change
                        the set up.Mind you,it is important to replace the removed batteries
                        with the equivalent weight in ballast as these considerable battery
                        banks serve as de facto ballast for Windermere.


                        >
                        > As well I need to find a source for affordable prices on Yamaha
                        outboards. Has anyone ever used a formal tendering process to buy an
                        outboard?


                        Let me know when you find a source close to me :-)
                        Sorry,not familiar with process called"formal tendering"


                        Sincerely,

                        Peter Lenihan
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Mike
                        Trawler version? Can someone please point me to this one. thanks. Mike
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 17, 2006
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                          Trawler version? Can someone please point me to this one.

                          thanks.

                          Mike


                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Is Peter building the trawler version?
                        • Waldo F. Odonahue
                          Bolger Trawler version? Can someone please point me to this one. ng dead horses - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no Ed, thanks, Fred posts - Pls
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 17, 2006
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                            Bolger

                            Trawler version? Can someone please point me to this one.



                            ng dead horses
                            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          • Waldo F. Odonahue
                            Sorry,not familiar with process called formal tendering ,___ tender 2 verb [ trans. ] offer or present (something) formally : he tendered his resignation as
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 17, 2006
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                              Sorry,not familiar with process called"formal tendering"





                              ,___


                              "tender 2 verb [ trans. ] offer or present (something) formally : he tendered his resignation as leader. • offer (money) as payment : she tendered her fare. • [ intrans. ] make a formal written offer to carry out work, supply goods, or buy land, shares, or another asset for a stated fixed price : firms of interior decorators have been tendering for the work. • [ trans. ] make such an offer giving (a stated fixed price) : what price should we tender for a contract? noun an offer to carry out work, supply goods, or buy land, shares, or another asset at a stated fixed price. PHRASES put something out to tender seek offers to carry out work or supply goods at a stated fixed price."


                              Example, government procure goods and services by allowing suppliers to compete with each other by "bidding" on a material or service contract. It like an auction - where you ask retailers, wholesalers, manufacturers to bid [quote] against each other.

                              This is how retailers, manufacturers buy their supplies and services - if they want to stay in business. Anyone in the house building business will be out of business if they don't use a formal tendering process.

                              One example, I needed 30 windows for a house I was building. 7 window manufactuers were contacted to see if they wanted to "bid" (quote) on my contract. I then sent out a quotation request form detailing size, style, number of windows etc.. The manufacturers must return firm quotations in designated number of days. Then the game begins. Each supplier is contacted - except the supplier with lowest price - given the lowest price. It's time to sharpen perncil! In my case the highest price supplier - reduced price by 30% to become the lowest price... and so on.

                              By the way - "list price" or "retail price" are meaningless terms. When I first started out in renovations - I thought I was getting a good deal at a electrical wholesalers for house building (panels, cable etc.) by getting 15% off "list price". Later on I found out that others were getting 60% off list price! The only real price - is the quote obtained through a formal tender.


                              Go to Stapes and get a package of quotation forms. By a book to get details or check out various web sites:
                              http://www.uregina.ca/presoff/vpadmin/policymanual/purchasing/4005.html






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Peter Lenihan
                              ... he tendered his resignation as leader. • offer (money) as payment : she tendered her fare. • [ intrans. ] make a formal written offer to carry out
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 18, 2006
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...>
                                wrote:
                                > "tender 2 verb [ trans. ] offer or present (something) formally :
                                he tendered his resignation as leader. • offer (money) as
                                payment : she tendered her fare. • [ intrans. ] make a formal
                                written offer to carry out work, supply goods, or buy land, shares,
                                or another asset for a stated fixed price : firms of interior
                                decorators have been tendering for the work. • [ trans. ] make
                                such an offer giving (a stated fixed price) : what price should we
                                tender for a contract? noun an offer to carry out work, supply
                                goods, or buy land, shares, or another asset at a stated fixed
                                price. PHRASES put something out to tender seek offers to carry out
                                work or supply goods at a stated fixed price."
                                >
                                >
                                > Example, government procure goods and services by allowing
                                suppliers to compete with each other by "bidding" on a material or
                                service contract. It like an auction - where you ask retailers,
                                wholesalers, manufacturers to bid [quote] against each other.
                                >
                                > This is how retailers, manufacturers buy their supplies and
                                services - if they want to stay in business. Anyone in the house
                                building business will be out of business if they don't use a formal
                                tendering process.
                                >
                                > One example, I needed 30 windows for a house I was building. 7
                                window manufactuers were contacted to see if they wanted to "bid"
                                (quote) on my contract. I then sent out a quotation request form
                                detailing size, style, number of windows etc.. The manufacturers
                                must return firm quotations in designated number of days. Then the
                                game begins. Each supplier is contacted - except the supplier with
                                lowest price - given the lowest price. It's time to sharpen
                                perncil! In my case the highest price supplier - reduced price by
                                30% to become the lowest price... and so on.
                                >
                                > By the way - "list price" or "retail price" are meaningless terms.
                                When I first started out in renovations - I thought I was getting a
                                good deal at a electrical wholesalers for house building (panels,
                                cable etc.) by getting 15% off "list price". Later on I found out
                                that others were getting 60% off list price! The only real price -
                                is the quote obtained through a formal tender.
                                >
                                >
                                > Go to Stapes and get a package of quotation forms. By a book to
                                get details or check out various web sites:
                                >
                                http://www.uregina.ca/presoff/vpadmin/policymanual/purchasing/4005.ht
                                ml
                                >


                                Hi Waldo,

                                Thanks for the explaination. I only have one dealer nearby for
                                the brand of outboard I am looking for. I checked out a few on the
                                internet and found a dealership in Ontario that sold for less.Went
                                to local dealer and asked if he could at least match their price.
                                Short answer: no.
                                Longer answer:No and we are already giving you a very good price and
                                extended warranty.If this isn't good enough,then go buy it in
                                Ontario.

                                I suppose being a single consumer,looking for a single one time
                                engine purchase doesn't give me much clout.On the other hand,were I
                                an outfitter at some fishing camp looking to re-fresh the engines in
                                my fleet of boats.....:-)

                                Good luck with you quest!


                                Sincerely,

                                Peter Lenihan,Windermere builder.........
                              • eric green
                                Yes, I am fascinated with the Windermere, but have never heard of a trawler version. Sounds like something Phil is working on. Has he provided a description?
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 18, 2006
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                                  Yes, I am fascinated with the Windermere, but have never heard of a trawler
                                  version. Sounds like something Phil is working on. Has he provided a
                                  description? Thanks,



                                  Eric



                                  BTW, does anyone know the loaded weight of a Windermere (Peter?).



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  Mike
                                  Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Anyone Here Build A Windermere?



                                  Trawler version? Can someone please point me to this one.

                                  thanks.

                                  Mike

                                  --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com"bolger@yahoogroups.-com,
                                  "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@-...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In HYPERLINK "mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com"bolger@yahoogroups.-com,
                                  "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Is Peter building the trawler version?




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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Waldo F. Odonahue
                                  Yes, I am fascinated with the Windermere, but have never heard of a trawler version. Sounds like something Phil is working on. Has he provided a description?
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 22, 2006
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                                    Yes, I am fascinated with the Windermere, but have never heard of a trawler
                                    version. Sounds like something Phil is working on. Has he provided a
                                    description? Thanks,




                                    Bolger faxed me the cartoons.









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