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Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe

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  • BllFs6@aol.com
    In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time, bagacayboatworks@gmail.com writes: Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 2 8:28 AM
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      In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
      bagacayboatworks@... writes:

      Hi Bill,

      The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
      boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
      without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
      the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
      really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

      By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
      than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
      boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

      Kenneth Grome
      Bagacay Boatworks



      Hi Kenneth....

      Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
      However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
      you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
      advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
      so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
      disadvantages.

      thanks for the input!

      take care

      Blll


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John and Kathy Trussell
      An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB s Super Mouse found in BWAOM. John T ... From: BllFs6@aol.com To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 2 2:58 PM
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        An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse found in BWAOM.

        John T
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: BllFs6@...
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:28 AM
        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe



        In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
        bagacayboatworks@... writes:

        Hi Bill,

        The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
        boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
        without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
        the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
        really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

        http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

        By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
        than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
        boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

        Kenneth Grome
        Bagacay Boatworks



        Hi Kenneth....

        Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
        However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
        you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
        advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
        so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
        disadvantages.

        thanks for the input!

        take care

        Blll


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Nels
        ... found in BWAOM. ... Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe. The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 2 5:46 PM
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
          <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
          >
          > An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse
          found in BWAOM.
          >

          Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe.

          "The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
          removeable one to use in appropriate weather. That would make one
          heavy-weather capable indeed, they're stiff as designed, with the
          200lb of outside ballast giving a reassuring range of stability."

          Nels
        • graeme19121984
          ... Kenneth, This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of flooding
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 2 7:31 PM
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
            wrote:
            >If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin
            >is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a
            >locker for secure/dry storage:
            >
            > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

            Kenneth,

            This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a
            downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of
            flooding through the hatchway they might like to stay in there :-)

            Alternativeley, if the hatch acccess were not through the bulkhead
            as pictured, but was a hatch in the raised deck shown, then there
            might be just sufficient privacy for porta-potti use within. I guess
            the hatch coaming might be chest high when sitting within. PCB has
            drawn a few heads in the bow with the occupiers head and shoulders
            protruding above deck. It would require a bit of agility in stepping
            from the cockpit seat, up, over, and down into the hatch, but the
            concession to some privacy might remove a bigger obstacle to some
            peoples' crewing.

            Cheers
            Graeme
          • graeme19121984
            ... No not really. I don t know that it would look bad. Just that it does t have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a boat is supposed to look
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 2 9:03 PM
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
              >, but I think it may meet all Common Sense Criteria including
              >#5: "...They don't exist because they are fashionable or
              >character boats."
              >
              > So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form
              >follows function then my design would be amazingly functional given
              >its amazingly bad looks :)

              No not really. I don't know that it would look bad. Just that it
              does't have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a
              boat is supposed to look to be a good boat.



              > My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe.

              My mistake. I eyeballed it again - and counted grid squares ;-) and
              your sketch seems ok .


              >I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would
              >be different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I.

              Some of those things might be serving more than one function. PCB
              can be quite suttle in this. PCB assigns a number to a design after
              the offsets are calculated. Old Shoe is #449. PCB&F would probably
              supply the offsets so you could completely change the internals and
              keep exactly the same hull form, however the replacement internals
              would need to satisfy the structural and other demands. I'm sure you
              know more about that engineering stuff than I - just thought I'd
              better mention it though :)

              > SOLAS...
              >Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the
              >hull is a curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in
              >the center in relation to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor
              >needs to be flat, and I would prefer that the footwell be flat and
              >above the external water as well because I want it to seriously
              >self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat plywood panels,
              >you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
              >feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I
              >dont recall the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at
              >least decent IIRC. Now this DOES eat into cabin height and
              >footwell depth, but how badly and at what costs to other
              >considerations I do not know.

              There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
              but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
              righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
              something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
              may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
              brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
              superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
              contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
              flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
              shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
              self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
              position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
              some effort.

              Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
              can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
              doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
              then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
              floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
              orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
              be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
              put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
              things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.

              >calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously
              >flooded under different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then
              >again it certainly isnt something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it
              >and hope for the best either.
              >...time for more boxes, rulers, and sketches me thinks....

              It's doable. Just gotta get out all the wrinkles.

              > I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel
              >idea. I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen
              >young man....form may follow function but one must learn to
              >control oneself" :) I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a
              >Micro.....might be able to get a...

              I'm sure Mr Bolger would have no trouble with assymetry per se.
              You'd know you were going too far here though, if he mentioned
              zealotry. ;-)

              Cheers
              Graeme
            • BllFs6@aol.com
              Hi Graeme Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 2 9:25 PM
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                Hi Graeme


                Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the
                longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for sure.


                Fortunately, when push comes to shove, the WAY I would use such a beast, I
                would be pretty safe as long as the darn thing stayed together and
                floated.....upright but low in the water or on its side or even up side down....any of
                those would be tolerable for me....so my requirements are not as demanding as
                some...

                Now, if your cruising is more "serious" then yeah, get the stability and
                orientation issues worked out much better....

                Something did occur to me today thinking about such things.....if your cabin
                is fairly assymetric and depending on how much air it holds or how intact it
                is or how much foam you have in the walls/ceiling of the cabin and where it
                is and how much flotation
                you have on the "non-cabin" side, the assymetric cabin may offer another
                advantage. It may ONLY be stable upright....or in other words you turn it upside
                down and the cabin flotation flips it upright again...and even if it doesn't,
                it may provide enough "help" to make using your own body weight to "un
                turtle" the beast easier ....

                So, such a cabin may make a rollover just that....always a rollover and
                never a turtle situation....of course the cabin would probably make a rollover
                more probable.....but if it meant it could never turtle......thats a trade off
                I'd happily live with.


                take care


                Blll


                In a message dated 6/2/2006 11:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
                graeme19121984@... writes:

                There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                some effort.

                Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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