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Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe

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  • BllFs6@aol.com
    In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
      In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
      graeme19121984@... writes:

      Hi Bill,

      your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
      only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
      Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
      they are fashionable or character boats."


      So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form follows
      function then my design would be amazingly functional given its amazingly bad looks
      :) Hey, in a millionaire marina when you have a tiny boat....any publicity
      is good publicity! My other dream project is still to build John Welsfords?
      Nano Shanty, making it look as much like a floating run down poor white trash
      trialer with a few chickens on top and anchoring next a fancy marina for a
      weekend. I'd also have to get up speed on how to properly chew and spit chewing
      tobaccee for this to have maximum effect. And I think I could manage to
      strap a mini keg and a tire rim on there somewhere as well.


      You have really approached this design problem of having a small
      sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
      more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
      Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
      sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
      consider.


      Thank you very much for the compliment, though I had my inspirations. First,
      obviously Bolgers trend of thinking outa the box and letting form follow
      function, as well as the Oldshoe design itself. Also, all these designs on the
      internet of micro cruisers gets one to thinking of what you need cabin wise if
      all it is to be used for is sleeping. And other designers out there with
      design features not found on your common commerical boats.




      Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
      l ines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
      may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
      may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
      bodies.


      My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe. I drew it with a 5 foot
      beam, a 1.5 foot bow, and a 3 foot wide transom. Does anybody have the real
      measurements for the bow and transom? And perhaps a few more measurements across
      the hull so I could get the plan view shape of the hull correct? Dont worry,
      not trying to backwards engineer Old Shoe, when and if this project ever goes
      forward I will be buying a set of Oldshoe plans.


      Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
      plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
      component will have to be made.

      Yes, I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would be
      different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I. We dont mind that at
      all, but then again it could get ugly and we might never speak to ourselves
      again.



      SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
      hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
      compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
      float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
      scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
      top of the footwell will be higher than the external water.


      Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the hull is a
      curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in the center in relation
      to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor needs to be flat, and I would
      prefer that the footwell be flat and above the external water as well because I
      want it to seriously self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat
      plywood panels, you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
      feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I dont recall
      the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at least decent IIRC. Now
      this DOES eat into cabin height and footwell depth, but how badly and at what
      costs to other considerations I do not know.


      That is 200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could
      arise
      without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
      under you.

      No doubt about that.....at the very least the design will have to float the
      lead, any attached heavy stuff like the anchor, motor, battery, and a certain
      amount of the structure itself above water. I think that is doable. Now HOW
      high, dry, and stable this can be after after things have obviously gone bad
      is the question. In my neck of the woods, with the geography, warm water,
      sandy beachs, and the type of sailing I am likely to do, if you can keep a good
      fraction of your body outa the water things probably wont turn out too bad.

      In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
      hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
      save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
      you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed.

      I agree with you there too. Any stuff stored in the cabin like the sleeping
      bag, padding extra clothing etc etc would be stored in "waterproof"
      containers/bags and secured if at all possible. This keeps stuff dry (duh), may
      provide helpful floation, and at least doesnt ADD unwanted "sinking forces" if
      large amounts of water end up in the cabin due to hulling or add weight should
      alot of water enter, then leave the cabin, thereby leaving lots of soggy heavy
      wet stuff behind.

      The storage
      compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
      seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
      Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ).


      True. I wound do my best to make under the seat storage relatively water
      tight. I would also try to insure that they are least unlikely to accidently
      open up. Then also store everything in containers (say tupperware of different
      sizes and shapes). And also even if not much is stored in there, the storage
      area is still filled with empty watertight containers.That way if storage
      area itself is not watertight for prolonged emmersion, you are still getting a
      decent fraction of the bouyancy you would get if the whole thing was just
      filled with foam.

      If they are dedicated to
      flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
      spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
      in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
      where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
      for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
      inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
      sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
      the offset footwell is flooded?

      The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
      difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
      creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
      arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
      rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
      mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
      as....


      Yes, at some point I'd have to stop hand waving and do some serious
      calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously flooded under
      different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then again it certainly isnt
      something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it and hope for the best either.




      " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
      may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
      claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
      claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
      and dry.


      Well, if you are claustrophobic you are outa luck for sure. Not a problem
      for me. The main measure for me is can I turn over, lay on my side, lay in a
      fetal position without knee's hitting the wall and hopefully at least mostly
      sit up somewhere? From my "floor plan" and some laying in closets recently, its
      looks like the answer is a conditional yes.

      I'd say the that my design still might not be bad for someone who doesnt
      like cramped spaces. As drawn you still have as much if not more "floorspace"
      outside the cabin as inside. That person just has to set up a tent to sleep in.
      So the boat can still sleep 2, just that its gotta be a snug as a bug in a
      rug type and a wide open spaces type. It just cant accomodate 2 wide open
      spaces types. And if sailed by a wide open spaces type the cabin still provides a
      few advantages. Quick place to duck in short term for say the pop up
      thunderstorm or a quick bit of shade, or a place to warm up/change clothes if its
      cold/windy/wet....The cabin is also a better storage space for bulky though
      preferably not too heavy stuff. And finally, should things get really bad, its a
      much better place to batten down the hatches and hold on for dear life than
      in an open cockpit or tent!


      Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
      markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
      back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
      may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
      uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
      concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


      Yes, that would certainly need some looking into. You might be able to put
      in some railing (since you would need very little) instead of raising the hull
      sides if it turned out you had to raise the seat hieght to maintain decent
      footwell depth and still wanted that not gonna fall backwards outa the boat
      feeling. But I "think" you could give up a bit on footwell depth and a bit on
      backrest height and still have a workable solution...time for more boxes,
      rulers, and sketches me thinks....



      To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
      sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
      SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
      an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
      (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
      once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
      function very "Bolger"}).


      Fair synopsis there. Don't get me wrong here. I dont think this is better
      than Oldshoe in every respect. You do give up alot. Simplity of
      design/construction. Costs. Proven track record. Probably some load carrying ability.
      Probably some flooded stability. The ability to easily carry 4 or more folks. And
      probably some other stuff that isnt obvious either at the moment or until you
      try both versions out.

      But I do think it you mostly gonna camp/cruise by your self or just daysail
      with 3 total adults (and maybe one little kid) or 2 adults and and 2 possibly
      3 little kids that the cabin does offer advantages that could be worth the
      loss of some of the attributes of the orginal Oldshoe.




      Again, thanks for the comments and input!

      I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel idea.

      I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen young man....form
      may follow function but one must learn to control oneself" :)

      I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a Micro.....might be able to get a
      dedicated head and a nice sized one person cabin that way and still have a fair
      bit of uptop space.....

      A dedicated head.....THATS hows ya gets the women folk when it comes to
      sailing! Well, that and sailing with a cute little dog with a doggy life jacket
      on.

      take care all

      Blll


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • BllFs6@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time, bagacayboatworks@gmail.com writes: Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
        In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
        bagacayboatworks@... writes:

        Hi Bill,

        The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
        boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
        without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
        the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
        really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

        http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

        By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
        than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
        boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

        Kenneth Grome
        Bagacay Boatworks



        Hi Kenneth....

        Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
        However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
        you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
        advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
        so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
        disadvantages.

        thanks for the input!

        take care

        Blll


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John and Kathy Trussell
        An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB s Super Mouse found in BWAOM. John T ... From: BllFs6@aol.com To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
          An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse found in BWAOM.

          John T
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: BllFs6@...
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:28 AM
          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe



          In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
          bagacayboatworks@... writes:

          Hi Bill,

          The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
          boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
          without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
          the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
          really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

          By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
          than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
          boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

          Kenneth Grome
          Bagacay Boatworks



          Hi Kenneth....

          Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
          However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
          you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
          advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
          so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
          disadvantages.

          thanks for the input!

          take care

          Blll


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Nels
          ... found in BWAOM. ... Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe. The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
            <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
            >
            > An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse
            found in BWAOM.
            >

            Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe.

            "The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
            removeable one to use in appropriate weather. That would make one
            heavy-weather capable indeed, they're stiff as designed, with the
            200lb of outside ballast giving a reassuring range of stability."

            Nels
          • graeme19121984
            ... Kenneth, This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of flooding
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
              wrote:
              >If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin
              >is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a
              >locker for secure/dry storage:
              >
              > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

              Kenneth,

              This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a
              downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of
              flooding through the hatchway they might like to stay in there :-)

              Alternativeley, if the hatch acccess were not through the bulkhead
              as pictured, but was a hatch in the raised deck shown, then there
              might be just sufficient privacy for porta-potti use within. I guess
              the hatch coaming might be chest high when sitting within. PCB has
              drawn a few heads in the bow with the occupiers head and shoulders
              protruding above deck. It would require a bit of agility in stepping
              from the cockpit seat, up, over, and down into the hatch, but the
              concession to some privacy might remove a bigger obstacle to some
              peoples' crewing.

              Cheers
              Graeme
            • graeme19121984
              ... No not really. I don t know that it would look bad. Just that it does t have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a boat is supposed to look
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                >, but I think it may meet all Common Sense Criteria including
                >#5: "...They don't exist because they are fashionable or
                >character boats."
                >
                > So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form
                >follows function then my design would be amazingly functional given
                >its amazingly bad looks :)

                No not really. I don't know that it would look bad. Just that it
                does't have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a
                boat is supposed to look to be a good boat.



                > My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe.

                My mistake. I eyeballed it again - and counted grid squares ;-) and
                your sketch seems ok .


                >I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would
                >be different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I.

                Some of those things might be serving more than one function. PCB
                can be quite suttle in this. PCB assigns a number to a design after
                the offsets are calculated. Old Shoe is #449. PCB&F would probably
                supply the offsets so you could completely change the internals and
                keep exactly the same hull form, however the replacement internals
                would need to satisfy the structural and other demands. I'm sure you
                know more about that engineering stuff than I - just thought I'd
                better mention it though :)

                > SOLAS...
                >Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the
                >hull is a curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in
                >the center in relation to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor
                >needs to be flat, and I would prefer that the footwell be flat and
                >above the external water as well because I want it to seriously
                >self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat plywood panels,
                >you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                >feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I
                >dont recall the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at
                >least decent IIRC. Now this DOES eat into cabin height and
                >footwell depth, but how badly and at what costs to other
                >considerations I do not know.

                There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                some effort.

                Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.

                >calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously
                >flooded under different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then
                >again it certainly isnt something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it
                >and hope for the best either.
                >...time for more boxes, rulers, and sketches me thinks....

                It's doable. Just gotta get out all the wrinkles.

                > I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel
                >idea. I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen
                >young man....form may follow function but one must learn to
                >control oneself" :) I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a
                >Micro.....might be able to get a...

                I'm sure Mr Bolger would have no trouble with assymetry per se.
                You'd know you were going too far here though, if he mentioned
                zealotry. ;-)

                Cheers
                Graeme
              • BllFs6@aol.com
                Hi Graeme Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                  Hi Graeme


                  Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the
                  longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for sure.


                  Fortunately, when push comes to shove, the WAY I would use such a beast, I
                  would be pretty safe as long as the darn thing stayed together and
                  floated.....upright but low in the water or on its side or even up side down....any of
                  those would be tolerable for me....so my requirements are not as demanding as
                  some...

                  Now, if your cruising is more "serious" then yeah, get the stability and
                  orientation issues worked out much better....

                  Something did occur to me today thinking about such things.....if your cabin
                  is fairly assymetric and depending on how much air it holds or how intact it
                  is or how much foam you have in the walls/ceiling of the cabin and where it
                  is and how much flotation
                  you have on the "non-cabin" side, the assymetric cabin may offer another
                  advantage. It may ONLY be stable upright....or in other words you turn it upside
                  down and the cabin flotation flips it upright again...and even if it doesn't,
                  it may provide enough "help" to make using your own body weight to "un
                  turtle" the beast easier ....

                  So, such a cabin may make a rollover just that....always a rollover and
                  never a turtle situation....of course the cabin would probably make a rollover
                  more probable.....but if it meant it could never turtle......thats a trade off
                  I'd happily live with.


                  take care


                  Blll


                  In a message dated 6/2/2006 11:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
                  graeme19121984@... writes:

                  There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                  but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                  righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                  something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                  may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                  brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                  superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                  contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                  flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                  shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                  self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                  position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                  some effort.

                  Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                  can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                  doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                  then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                  floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                  orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                  be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                  put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                  things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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