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Re: Rudder Problems/Request design or help with Gypsy rudder

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  • Greg Flemming
    Hi David Yes, the GIS rudder design does seem very simple Can t see why it wouldn t work well?? Greg ... the ... resistance). ... like a ... it ... pivoting
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
      Hi David

      Yes, the GIS rudder design does seem very simple Can't see why it
      wouldn't work well??

      Greg

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
      >
      > Greg & Joe,
      >
      > As I said, I've yet to build/test one, but no, it's not supposed to
      > break or get damaged on impact. The flex in the shock cord allows it
      > to pivot when struck. Also, Storer calls for the central staves of
      the
      > blade to be Western Red Cedar (presumably for light weight), but the
      > front & rear staves out of something tougher (for impact
      resistance).
      > Ours are Ash, but it could be White Oak, Ipe, Iroko, etc. The whole
      > rudder blade is then glassed & epoxied. Then comes either varnish or
      > paint. I think it'll be paint for us - certainly on the PDR, and
      > likely on the Goat Island Skiff. So... it'll retract vertically
      like a
      > dagger board. Or, if you're a forgetful old coot like myself (and
      > Joe?) you can - if all else fails - allow the Ash & shock cord to do
      > their job.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > David Graybeal
      > Portland, OR
      >
      > "You Know You're Old When: your sweetie suggests going upstairs to
      > messaround and you tell her to pick one, you can't do both"
      >
      > ****************
      >
      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Joe
      > >
      > > Yes, I guess that would be the scare, although the way they say
      it
      > > works it would not actually break anything, perhaps!
      > >
      > > Greg
      > >
      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Greg:
      > > >
      > > > It works just like a daggerboard, sliding straight up, not
      pivoting
      > > > which I prefer. I'm prone to forget and would rip something off
      on a
      > > > hard beach landing.
      > > > The link to the Photo is at:
      > > > http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
      > > 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
      > > > Don't know why your link didn't work. Hope mine does.
      > > >
      > > > Joe T
      > > >
      > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Flemming" <greg@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Well, there's one for sale on the Duck Flat Site and there's
      at
      > > > > least one photo that shows the rudder stock with the cheeks
      that
      > > > > David describes:
      > > > >
      > > > > Here's the link(I
      > > hope) :http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pics/for%
      > > > > 20sale/largepics/GoatIsSkiffTransom.jpg
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Greg F
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@>
      wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > David
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Always looking for a good rudder design. Will you please
      give a
      > > > > link
      > > > > > to the one you refer to. Couldn't find it on Storer's site.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks, Joe T
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > The interesting thing is that he has the
      > > > > > > rudder stock, or blade, loose. It slips snugly between
      the
      > > > > cheeks and
      > > > > > > is held in place with a elastic shock cord - which is
      > > attached
      > > > > to both
      > > > > > > cheeks and loops around the blade to hold it in place via
      > > > > friction.
      > > > > > > The combination of the cheeks and the elastic hold the
      blade
      > > > > firmly
      > > > > > > enough during normal maneuvers. If you strike something,
      > > there's
      > > > > > > enough give in the elastic to allow the blade to kick up.
      > > When
      > > > > you're
      > > > > > > coming in to shore, you can just slide the blade straight
      up
      > > > > > > (vertically) to allow your boat to beach without
      interference
      > > > > from (or
      > > > > > > damage to) the rudder. I had originally planned to copy a
      > > friends
      > > > > > > kickup rudder design, but this one is much more elegant.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Don't have a link ready to hand. You might just Google
      > > Michael
      > > > > Storer
      > > > > > > Boat Design.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Good Luck,
      > > > > > > David Graybeal
      > > > > > > Portland, OR
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Tim Rohrer
      I want to thank everyone who wrote back. To clarify, the parts that were epoxied are the plywood to the blocks of wood that function as frames (if you will).
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
        I want to thank everyone who wrote back. To clarify, the parts that were epoxied are the
        plywood to the blocks of wood that function as frames (if you will). The pindle and
        gudgeons are really four eye-screws and then I use a bar to connect the rudder to the
        boat.

        I would rather not spend the time to redesign and build a rudder since it is now June and I
        really want to use the boat this summer. I think, based on what I heard, I should either
        buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current rudder (reassembled :) ) or
        find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support to the rudder. I'm going
        to go assess the project today so I can get an order in if I do the latter.

        Cheers, Tim

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "saillips" <saillips@...> wrote:
        >
        > The piece that broke this time was the lower block
        > > that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood
        > with brass-ringed nails
        > > and epoxy.
        > >
        > > I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a
        > better rudder design they
        > > want to share with me?
        > >
        > > Thanks.
        > >
        > > Tim
        > >
        > I built my Gypsy in 1987 and sailed it quite hard. The 2 items that
        > failed early on were the rudder/head/tiller assembly and the mast
        > partner. I found that I had to rebuild the rudder cheeks and
        > pintles/gudgeons to beefier scantlings.
        > The mast partner, as I remember was a "U" shaped beam screwed and
        > glued to the gunwales. After mine tore out one day resulting in a
        > paddle home, I trimmed it to fit upside down between the gunwales,
        > screwed and glued a 1/4 bulkhead (made to fit inside the hull at that
        > location) to it and re-installed it, filleting the bulkhead to the hull.
        > Keep in mind that when it blows she likes to heel over and lock in on
        > the chine. Then she 'll really move. Two people on the rail when it's
        > blowing is great...until the mast partner tears out. I was often up on
        > the high side hiking out, which is why "next time" I'll install side
        > decks so my thighs don't get bruised and beaten.
        > Her demise was land-based: a pick-up truck with a bed load of plywood
        > crushed it.
        >
      • William Page
        Hello, Tim: I haven t been following this thread, but I bought a gudgeon & pindtle set made by RaceLite via Duckworks.com recently and was pleased with the
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
          Hello, Tim:

          I haven't been following this thread, but I bought a gudgeon & pindtle set made by RaceLite via Duckworks.com recently and was pleased with the price, quality and speed of delivery.

          Ciao for Niao,
          Bill in MN

          Tim Rohrer <tgrohrer@...> wrote:
          I think, based on what I heard, I should either
          buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current rudder (reassembled :) ) or find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support to the rudder. I'm going to go assess the project today so I can get an order in if I do the latter.


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        • Mike
          ... pindtle set made by RaceLite via Duckworks.com recently and was pleased with the price, quality and speed of delivery. ... Hello and thanks for the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, William Page <billybouy2@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I haven't been following this thread, but I bought a gudgeon &
            pindtle set made by RaceLite via Duckworks.com recently and was
            pleased with the price, quality and speed of delivery.
            >
            Hello and thanks for the Duckworks.com lead on g & p hardware. I went
            with the Payson brass rod and "hammered out aluminum strap". It works
            but it is a pain to try to get that all put together, especially if
            you are trying to do in a little chop. The headstock on Gypsy is 2-
            1/4". The light-duty g & P hardware at Boatworks goes up to only 1-
            1/2", so I guess I am stuck with the brass rod. The heavy-duty g & p
            will work but cost $60.00+. Any ideas?
          • Joe Tribulato
            Mike: I have used shoulder eye bolts for gudgeons with plastic caster sockets to reduce them to 1/4 . Could also use them or screw eyes for rudder fittings
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
              Mike:

              I have used shoulder eye bolts for gudgeons with plastic caster
              sockets to reduce them to 1/4". Could also use them or screw eyes for
              rudder fittings with appropriate rod or pipe. Put the transom eyes on
              the outside to keep the rudder from coming up. If screw eyes are
              required, set them in epoxy glue in a slightly oversized hole.
              Probably would be cheaper but I don't know how much.

              Joe T

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <skiffsalor2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello and thanks for the Duckworks.com lead on g & p hardware. I went
              > with the Payson brass rod and "hammered out aluminum strap". It works
              > but it is a pain to try to get that all put together, especially if
              > you are trying to do in a little chop. The headstock on Gypsy is 2-
              > 1/4". The light-duty g & P hardware at Boatworks goes up to only 1-
              > 1/2", so I guess I am stuck with the brass rod. The heavy-duty g & p
              > will work but cost $60.00+. Any ideas?
              >
            • Paul Thober
              For what it is worth I built a gypsy a few years ago and built the rudder to the design and it worked flawlessly. The pintles that I used enclosed the upper
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
                For what it is worth I built a gypsy a few years ago and built the rudder to the design and it worked flawlessly. The pintles that I used enclosed the upper part of the rudder. Screw eyes, IMHO, are insufficient for the forces involved.

                Paul

                Tim Rohrer <tgrohrer@...> wrote: Hi Everyone. I've been inactive in this group for some time. I finished (Early '04) and then
                enclosed a gypsy ('05). I've only sailed her a couple of times. In fact, today was my sea trials
                following the enclosing work and redesign of the rudder. I build the rudder that same as the
                first one (from Mr. Payson's book), just taller to account for the decking. Before I continue, I
                should tell you that I had problems with the first rudder coming apart (too much torque from
                the tiller would be my guess). Well, during my first run today in pretty light winds, that
                rudder fell apart similar to the first one. The piece that broke this time was the lower block
                that receives the lower "gudgeon". It was attached to the plywood with brass-ringed nails
                and epoxy.

                I'm curious if others have had this problem? Does anyone have a better rudder design they
                want to share with me?

                Thanks.

                Tim







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              • graeme19121984
                Hi Tim, have you seen the Gate Hinges album at Bolger2 photos? Might make a quick gudgeon & pintle set.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 5, 2006
                  Hi Tim,

                  have you seen the Gate Hinges album at Bolger2 photos? Might make a
                  quick gudgeon & pintle set.

                  http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/3695?b=2&m=s&o=0

                  Graeme

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rohrer" <tgrohrer@...> wrote:

                  >it is now June and I really want to use the boat this summer...
                  > ...buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current
                  >rudder
                  >
                  >or
                  >
                  > find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support
                  >to the rudder.
                • Kevin O'Neill
                  Hi I ve used 1/2 id pvc and 1/2 aluminum rod to make rudder hinges for a small kayak I wanted to turn into a sailboat. Rough up the outside of the pvc with
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 5, 2006
                    Hi

                    I've used 1/2" id pvc and 1/2" aluminum rod to make
                    rudder hinges for a small kayak I wanted to turn into
                    a sailboat. Rough up the outside of the pvc with 60
                    grit sandpaper, chop the pvc into 2" sections,
                    threaded it onto the rod with small washers between
                    bits to make a little gap. Then clamp the rudder to a
                    sawhorse or something so it's up against the transom
                    exactly where you want it to be when you're sailing,
                    and super glued every other bit of pvc to the rudder,
                    and every other bit to the boat. You can just stand
                    there and hold it in place until it dries, about 30
                    seconds. Now *carefully* pull the pin, take the
                    rudder to the bench, and epoxy/glass cloth the bits of
                    pvc to the rudder and the boat. To go sailing you put
                    the rudder in place and drop the pin in; either put a
                    cap on the pin or drill a hole in the top for a cotter
                    pin.

                    Huh. Re-reading, I'm not sure that's clear. If it's
                    not let me know and I'll dig up some pictures.

                    Kevin

                    --- graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Hi Tim,
                    >
                    > have you seen the Gate Hinges album at Bolger2
                    > photos? Might make a
                    > quick gudgeon & pintle set.
                    >
                    >
                    http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/3695?b=2&m=s&o=0
                    >
                    > Graeme
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rohrer"
                    > <tgrohrer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >it is now June and I really want to use the boat
                    > this summer...
                    > > ...buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit
                    > around the current
                    > >rudder
                    > >
                    > >or
                    > >
                    > > find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would
                    > provide support
                    > >to the rudder.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • William
                    I had similar problems with the rudder on my gypsy having 2 failures. to correct the problem I made the cheek piece from 1/2 ply wood verses the plans 1/4
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 7, 2006
                      I had similar problems with the rudder on my gypsy having 2 failures.
                      to correct the problem I made the cheek piece from 1/2" ply wood verses
                      the plans 1/4" and put small through bolts through the cheek pieces
                      and blocks. I used 3/16" by 1" aluminum strap bent into an L bracket
                      about 4" long on both the rudder and transom with a 1/4" bronze rod
                      through the assembly with 1" on each end threaded with nylon locking
                      nuts on each end. since I made these changes, 2 years ago, I have not
                      had any trouble with it and I do love to sail her!
                    • Tim Rohrer
                      No, I had not. That is an idea I ll have to keep in mind if I rebuild. Tks. tim
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 11, 2006
                        No, I had not. That is an idea I'll have to keep in mind if I rebuild. Tks.

                        tim

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Tim,
                        >
                        > have you seen the Gate Hinges album at Bolger2 photos? Might make a
                        > quick gudgeon & pintle set.
                        >
                        > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/photos/view/3695?b=2&m=s&o=0
                        >
                        > Graeme
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Rohrer" <tgrohrer@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >it is now June and I really want to use the boat this summer...
                        > > ...buy a pindle and gudgeon set that would fit around the current
                        > >rudder
                        > >
                        > >or
                        > >
                        > > find flat steel I can bend to a U-shape that would provide support
                        > >to the rudder.
                        >
                      • Tim Rohrer
                        If I understand your description, this is pretty much what I m trying. I m building straps to go around the cheek pieces and blocks and intend to screw them
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 11, 2006
                          If I understand your description, this is pretty much what I'm trying. I'm building straps to go
                          around the cheek pieces and blocks and intend to screw them in even though they are tight.
                          I'm considering running bolts through where I can.

                          Thanks. Tim

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William " <sdavis@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I had similar problems with the rudder on my gypsy having 2 failures.
                          > to correct the problem I made the cheek piece from 1/2" ply wood verses
                          > the plans 1/4" and put small through bolts through the cheek pieces
                          > and blocks. I used 3/16" by 1" aluminum strap bent into an L bracket
                          > about 4" long on both the rudder and transom with a 1/4" bronze rod
                          > through the assembly with 1" on each end threaded with nylon locking
                          > nuts on each end. since I made these changes, 2 years ago, I have not
                          > had any trouble with it and I do love to sail her!
                          >
                        • Douglas Pollard
                          I made stainless steel fittings for kevlar rope to anchor mines with. The fittings were cones tapered inside and out there was a bail on the big end of the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 11, 2006
                            I made stainless steel fittings for kevlar rope to anchor mines with. The fittings were cones tapered inside and out there was a bail on the big end of the cone that was made of 3/8 insquare stainless bent into a horseshoe shape and welded to the cone. The kevlar rope was put into the cone and the end frayed out. The cone was poured full of epoxy. I saw the pull testing on 10 of these assemblies. The were pulled at 30,000 lbs. the rope stretched from 5/8 in dia to 5/16 in diameter. I had thought the epoxy would fail. It all held together. Then they were pulled until failure, the bails on the fittings failed, they stretched and broke. We took bets on what would fail and I bet the epoxy would shatter inside the cone and lost my five bucks. So any way, under enough strain the kevlar stretches about 100 % . I doubt that on any small boat there is likely to be that kind of pressure even with a fairly small edge hitting the boat at 6 knots. I would think the epoxy would fail that's in the kevlar allowing water to come through. If so there would need to be a way to reseal the fabric after impact. Doug

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Tim Rohrer
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:44 AM
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Rudder Problems/Request design or help with Gypsy rudder


                            If I understand your description, this is pretty much what I'm trying. I'm building straps to go
                            around the cheek pieces and blocks and intend to screw them in even though they are tight.
                            I'm considering running bolts through where I can.

                            Thanks. Tim

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "William " <sdavis@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I had similar problems with the rudder on my gypsy having 2 failures.
                            > to correct the problem I made the cheek piece from 1/2" ply wood verses
                            > the plans 1/4" and put small through bolts through the cheek pieces
                            > and blocks. I used 3/16" by 1" aluminum strap bent into an L bracket
                            > about 4" long on both the rudder and transom with a 1/4" bronze rod
                            > through the assembly with 1" on each end threaded with nylon locking
                            > nuts on each end. since I made these changes, 2 years ago, I have not
                            > had any trouble with it and I do love to sail her!
                            >





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