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Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe

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  • graeme19121984
    ... Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all Common
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 1 10:08 PM
      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
      > Does my layout look ok? make any sense? Would you make some things
      >larger and others smaller? and why? I'm sure the layout (besides
      >the general concept) could use a lot of tweaking/refining...

      Hi Bill,

      your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
      only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
      Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
      they are fashionable or character boats."

      I'll try as best I can to address some of the implications of your
      Old Shoe modification ideas. These are just my initial thoughts and
      impressions. I'm not any kind of naval architect, rather, just as
      you seem to be, along with many here, I often wonder how a design
      might be altered a bit to accomodate some need better. And whether
      it would work out!

      You have really approached this design problem of having a small
      sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
      more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
      Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
      sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
      consider.

      Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
      lines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
      may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
      may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
      bodies. Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
      plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
      component will have to be made.

      SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
      hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
      compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
      float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
      scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
      top of the footwell will be higher than the external water. That is
      200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could arise
      without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
      under you.In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
      hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
      save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
      you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed. The storage
      compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
      seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
      Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ). If they are dedicated to
      flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
      spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
      in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
      where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
      for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
      inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
      sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
      the offset footwell is flooded?

      The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
      difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
      creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
      arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
      rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
      mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
      as: "

      >IT DOES GIVE up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original
      >oldshoe for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can
      >still be "topside". It does have the advantage of having a
      >cabin/area that you can securely put one or two little kids in, or
      >an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults. You could
      >probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
      >boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare
      >minimum... "

      and

      >"AGAIN, IN SOME respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but
      >it looks to me that it would be a great daysailer that at a
      >minimum can sail 2 adults easily, with a cabin for at least one
      >adult to duck into in bad weather (around here on the northern
      >gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly predictable
      >except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
      >for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".

      " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
      may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
      claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
      claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
      and dry.


      Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
      markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
      back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
      may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
      uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
      concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


      > but I did run around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and
      laying in closets and under funiture etc etc...
      LOL. In addition to you and me, I'm sure many a Bolgerado has done
      this. Does Mr Bolger, do you think? He's had clients draw outlines
      in their driveways etc. when elucidating their wants and needs.

      To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
      sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
      SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
      an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
      (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
      once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
      function is very "Bolger"}).

      Thanks for sharing this outa-the-box idea with us. Please keep up
      development, and keep us informed how it goes.

      Cheers
      Graeme
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... I ve sent ... Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file! I applaud your
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 2 1:48 AM
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi all
        >
        >
        > This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff
        I've sent
        > about it in the other thread together here.

        > Peter and Graeme did you get the sketch file I sent you?


        Hi B111

        Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
        Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

        I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
        I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
        got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
        too much into too small a package.

        Having built and owned a MICRO, I am certainly no stranger to how
        seductive these "shapes" can be nor to how they may equally inspire
        dozens of custom modifications.Afterall, can you imagine an easier
        shape to work with considering their slab-sidedness and all of that
        appealing interior volume? :-)

        Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
        the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
        boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
        privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
        use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
        options:
        a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
        as per your sketches,or
        b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
        experienced based real needs.


        Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
        small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
        that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
        all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
        with any big cabin structures :-)

        In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
        your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
        original state shall not be too much hardship :-)


        Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
        for even offering up several different modifications to move the
        effort forward some.

        Nevertheless,I do look forward to following your project and hope
        that you will get to experience the grand pleasures of
        building,launching and using your very own magic carpet ride to
        happy adventures!


        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan, just another chicken-shit builder who sticks to the
        plans and only strays with great trepidation,all the while
        fascinated by those who happily blaze their own trails( what guts
        that must take!), from along the shores of the mighty
        St.Lawrence..........
      • BllFs6@aol.com
        Hi Peter Thanks much for the thoughtful response. But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding! Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 2 6:29 AM
          Hi Peter


          Thanks much for the thoughtful response.

          But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding!


          Hi B111

          Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
          Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

          Well, I guess its good that I didnt send the 14MB file that was scanned at
          720dpi!




          I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
          I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
          got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
          too much into too small a package.
          I tend to think that I am trying to use the given space in a different way
          more so than trying add stuff given I am knowingly give up some of Oldshoe's
          better virtue's.


          Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
          the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
          boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
          privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
          use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
          options:
          a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
          as per your sketches,or

          If these were minor or relatively minor tweaks or something that could be
          added onto the existing structure I would very much agree, but given that about
          the only thing that would be original Oldshoe would be the sails, hull shell,
          and keel, I am not sure how much that would help given how different the new
          layout would be from the old.

          I could use Oldshoe with some kinda tent or removable hardtop sorta thing
          and I might find it to be perfectly acceptable.....BUT I would never know how
          much better/worse different something like my proposal would be until I tried
          it. So I guess I really need to build both versions!



          b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
          experienced based real needs.

          Perhaps, but I think I'd get a fair idea of whether Oldshoe was big enough
          or not for what I wanted using either model version.

          Also, I really like Oldshoe because it seems for me at least to be "Just big
          enough". Go up to the Micro say and the mass is ALOT more, mast
          significantly harder to manhandle, and the sails cost about 50 percent more IIRC.


          Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
          small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
          that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
          all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
          with any big cabin structures :-)

          Yes, that is the good part. If I were to come across some gotcha in
          construction or use of my version, it would be more of an "aww crud" rather than
          "OHHH NOOO!"

          Yes on cabin weight. Fortunately I have enough engineering type experience
          to know how to make something strong in ways other than just using
          thick/thicker plywood.



          In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
          your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
          original state shall not be too much hardship :-)

          Well, if my version was a flop for me at least it would be a true
          original...a true oddity among oddities...you think an Oldshoe is hard to find.....try
          finding a Gnushoe! Heck, I could probably sell it to some mentally unbalanced
          Bolgerista for a decent amount because they just gotta try it out :)




          Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
          for even offering up several different modifications to move the
          effort forward some.


          No problem Peter.

          Getting others people opinion always helps in one of two ways...either you
          realize the error of your ways and are saved from yourself orrrrrr you get even
          more entrenched in thought that your idea is the RIGHT idea, removing any
          pesky linger doubts you should have obviously never had in the first place!

          This isnt a project so much a alot of thinking and dreaming at this
          stage....but maybe this thread will help out others with thier projects, ideas, and
          thought processes.

          Again thanks.

          take care

          Blll





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • BllFs6@aol.com
          In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 2 8:22 AM
            In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
            graeme19121984@... writes:

            Hi Bill,

            your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
            only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
            Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
            they are fashionable or character boats."


            So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form follows
            function then my design would be amazingly functional given its amazingly bad looks
            :) Hey, in a millionaire marina when you have a tiny boat....any publicity
            is good publicity! My other dream project is still to build John Welsfords?
            Nano Shanty, making it look as much like a floating run down poor white trash
            trialer with a few chickens on top and anchoring next a fancy marina for a
            weekend. I'd also have to get up speed on how to properly chew and spit chewing
            tobaccee for this to have maximum effect. And I think I could manage to
            strap a mini keg and a tire rim on there somewhere as well.


            You have really approached this design problem of having a small
            sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
            more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
            Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
            sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
            consider.


            Thank you very much for the compliment, though I had my inspirations. First,
            obviously Bolgers trend of thinking outa the box and letting form follow
            function, as well as the Oldshoe design itself. Also, all these designs on the
            internet of micro cruisers gets one to thinking of what you need cabin wise if
            all it is to be used for is sleeping. And other designers out there with
            design features not found on your common commerical boats.




            Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
            l ines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
            may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
            may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
            bodies.


            My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe. I drew it with a 5 foot
            beam, a 1.5 foot bow, and a 3 foot wide transom. Does anybody have the real
            measurements for the bow and transom? And perhaps a few more measurements across
            the hull so I could get the plan view shape of the hull correct? Dont worry,
            not trying to backwards engineer Old Shoe, when and if this project ever goes
            forward I will be buying a set of Oldshoe plans.


            Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
            plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
            component will have to be made.

            Yes, I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would be
            different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I. We dont mind that at
            all, but then again it could get ugly and we might never speak to ourselves
            again.



            SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
            hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
            compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
            float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
            scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
            top of the footwell will be higher than the external water.


            Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the hull is a
            curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in the center in relation
            to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor needs to be flat, and I would
            prefer that the footwell be flat and above the external water as well because I
            want it to seriously self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat
            plywood panels, you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
            feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I dont recall
            the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at least decent IIRC. Now
            this DOES eat into cabin height and footwell depth, but how badly and at what
            costs to other considerations I do not know.


            That is 200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could
            arise
            without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
            under you.

            No doubt about that.....at the very least the design will have to float the
            lead, any attached heavy stuff like the anchor, motor, battery, and a certain
            amount of the structure itself above water. I think that is doable. Now HOW
            high, dry, and stable this can be after after things have obviously gone bad
            is the question. In my neck of the woods, with the geography, warm water,
            sandy beachs, and the type of sailing I am likely to do, if you can keep a good
            fraction of your body outa the water things probably wont turn out too bad.

            In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
            hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
            save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
            you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed.

            I agree with you there too. Any stuff stored in the cabin like the sleeping
            bag, padding extra clothing etc etc would be stored in "waterproof"
            containers/bags and secured if at all possible. This keeps stuff dry (duh), may
            provide helpful floation, and at least doesnt ADD unwanted "sinking forces" if
            large amounts of water end up in the cabin due to hulling or add weight should
            alot of water enter, then leave the cabin, thereby leaving lots of soggy heavy
            wet stuff behind.

            The storage
            compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
            seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
            Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ).


            True. I wound do my best to make under the seat storage relatively water
            tight. I would also try to insure that they are least unlikely to accidently
            open up. Then also store everything in containers (say tupperware of different
            sizes and shapes). And also even if not much is stored in there, the storage
            area is still filled with empty watertight containers.That way if storage
            area itself is not watertight for prolonged emmersion, you are still getting a
            decent fraction of the bouyancy you would get if the whole thing was just
            filled with foam.

            If they are dedicated to
            flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
            spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
            in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
            where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
            for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
            inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
            sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
            the offset footwell is flooded?

            The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
            difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
            creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
            arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
            rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
            mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
            as....


            Yes, at some point I'd have to stop hand waving and do some serious
            calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously flooded under
            different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then again it certainly isnt
            something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it and hope for the best either.




            " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
            may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
            claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
            claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
            and dry.


            Well, if you are claustrophobic you are outa luck for sure. Not a problem
            for me. The main measure for me is can I turn over, lay on my side, lay in a
            fetal position without knee's hitting the wall and hopefully at least mostly
            sit up somewhere? From my "floor plan" and some laying in closets recently, its
            looks like the answer is a conditional yes.

            I'd say the that my design still might not be bad for someone who doesnt
            like cramped spaces. As drawn you still have as much if not more "floorspace"
            outside the cabin as inside. That person just has to set up a tent to sleep in.
            So the boat can still sleep 2, just that its gotta be a snug as a bug in a
            rug type and a wide open spaces type. It just cant accomodate 2 wide open
            spaces types. And if sailed by a wide open spaces type the cabin still provides a
            few advantages. Quick place to duck in short term for say the pop up
            thunderstorm or a quick bit of shade, or a place to warm up/change clothes if its
            cold/windy/wet....The cabin is also a better storage space for bulky though
            preferably not too heavy stuff. And finally, should things get really bad, its a
            much better place to batten down the hatches and hold on for dear life than
            in an open cockpit or tent!


            Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
            markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
            back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
            may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
            uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
            concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


            Yes, that would certainly need some looking into. You might be able to put
            in some railing (since you would need very little) instead of raising the hull
            sides if it turned out you had to raise the seat hieght to maintain decent
            footwell depth and still wanted that not gonna fall backwards outa the boat
            feeling. But I "think" you could give up a bit on footwell depth and a bit on
            backrest height and still have a workable solution...time for more boxes,
            rulers, and sketches me thinks....



            To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
            sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
            SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
            an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
            (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
            once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
            function very "Bolger"}).


            Fair synopsis there. Don't get me wrong here. I dont think this is better
            than Oldshoe in every respect. You do give up alot. Simplity of
            design/construction. Costs. Proven track record. Probably some load carrying ability.
            Probably some flooded stability. The ability to easily carry 4 or more folks. And
            probably some other stuff that isnt obvious either at the moment or until you
            try both versions out.

            But I do think it you mostly gonna camp/cruise by your self or just daysail
            with 3 total adults (and maybe one little kid) or 2 adults and and 2 possibly
            3 little kids that the cabin does offer advantages that could be worth the
            loss of some of the attributes of the orginal Oldshoe.




            Again, thanks for the comments and input!

            I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel idea.

            I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen young man....form
            may follow function but one must learn to control oneself" :)

            I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a Micro.....might be able to get a
            dedicated head and a nice sized one person cabin that way and still have a fair
            bit of uptop space.....

            A dedicated head.....THATS hows ya gets the women folk when it comes to
            sailing! Well, that and sailing with a cute little dog with a doggy life jacket
            on.

            take care all

            Blll


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • BllFs6@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time, bagacayboatworks@gmail.com writes: Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 2 8:28 AM
              In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
              bagacayboatworks@... writes:

              Hi Bill,

              The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
              boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
              without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
              the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
              really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

              By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
              than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
              boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

              Kenneth Grome
              Bagacay Boatworks



              Hi Kenneth....

              Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
              However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
              you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
              advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
              so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
              disadvantages.

              thanks for the input!

              take care

              Blll


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John and Kathy Trussell
              An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB s Super Mouse found in BWAOM. John T ... From: BllFs6@aol.com To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 2 2:58 PM
                An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse found in BWAOM.

                John T
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: BllFs6@...
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:28 AM
                Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe



                In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                bagacayboatworks@... writes:

                Hi Bill,

                The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
                boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
                the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
                really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
                than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
                boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                Kenneth Grome
                Bagacay Boatworks



                Hi Kenneth....

                Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
                However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
                you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
                advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
                so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
                disadvantages.

                thanks for the input!

                take care

                Blll


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Nels
                ... found in BWAOM. ... Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe. The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 2 5:46 PM
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                  <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse
                  found in BWAOM.
                  >

                  Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe.

                  "The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                  removeable one to use in appropriate weather. That would make one
                  heavy-weather capable indeed, they're stiff as designed, with the
                  200lb of outside ballast giving a reassuring range of stability."

                  Nels
                • graeme19121984
                  ... Kenneth, This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of flooding
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 2 7:31 PM
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
                    wrote:
                    >If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin
                    >is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a
                    >locker for secure/dry storage:
                    >
                    > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                    Kenneth,

                    This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a
                    downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of
                    flooding through the hatchway they might like to stay in there :-)

                    Alternativeley, if the hatch acccess were not through the bulkhead
                    as pictured, but was a hatch in the raised deck shown, then there
                    might be just sufficient privacy for porta-potti use within. I guess
                    the hatch coaming might be chest high when sitting within. PCB has
                    drawn a few heads in the bow with the occupiers head and shoulders
                    protruding above deck. It would require a bit of agility in stepping
                    from the cockpit seat, up, over, and down into the hatch, but the
                    concession to some privacy might remove a bigger obstacle to some
                    peoples' crewing.

                    Cheers
                    Graeme
                  • graeme19121984
                    ... No not really. I don t know that it would look bad. Just that it does t have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a boat is supposed to look
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 2 9:03 PM
                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                      >, but I think it may meet all Common Sense Criteria including
                      >#5: "...They don't exist because they are fashionable or
                      >character boats."
                      >
                      > So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form
                      >follows function then my design would be amazingly functional given
                      >its amazingly bad looks :)

                      No not really. I don't know that it would look bad. Just that it
                      does't have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a
                      boat is supposed to look to be a good boat.



                      > My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe.

                      My mistake. I eyeballed it again - and counted grid squares ;-) and
                      your sketch seems ok .


                      >I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would
                      >be different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I.

                      Some of those things might be serving more than one function. PCB
                      can be quite suttle in this. PCB assigns a number to a design after
                      the offsets are calculated. Old Shoe is #449. PCB&F would probably
                      supply the offsets so you could completely change the internals and
                      keep exactly the same hull form, however the replacement internals
                      would need to satisfy the structural and other demands. I'm sure you
                      know more about that engineering stuff than I - just thought I'd
                      better mention it though :)

                      > SOLAS...
                      >Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the
                      >hull is a curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in
                      >the center in relation to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor
                      >needs to be flat, and I would prefer that the footwell be flat and
                      >above the external water as well because I want it to seriously
                      >self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat plywood panels,
                      >you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                      >feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I
                      >dont recall the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at
                      >least decent IIRC. Now this DOES eat into cabin height and
                      >footwell depth, but how badly and at what costs to other
                      >considerations I do not know.

                      There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                      but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                      righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                      something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                      may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                      brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                      superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                      contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                      flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                      shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                      self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                      position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                      some effort.

                      Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                      can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                      doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                      then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                      floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                      orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                      be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                      put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                      things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.

                      >calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously
                      >flooded under different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then
                      >again it certainly isnt something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it
                      >and hope for the best either.
                      >...time for more boxes, rulers, and sketches me thinks....

                      It's doable. Just gotta get out all the wrinkles.

                      > I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel
                      >idea. I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen
                      >young man....form may follow function but one must learn to
                      >control oneself" :) I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a
                      >Micro.....might be able to get a...

                      I'm sure Mr Bolger would have no trouble with assymetry per se.
                      You'd know you were going too far here though, if he mentioned
                      zealotry. ;-)

                      Cheers
                      Graeme
                    • BllFs6@aol.com
                      Hi Graeme Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 2 9:25 PM
                        Hi Graeme


                        Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the
                        longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for sure.


                        Fortunately, when push comes to shove, the WAY I would use such a beast, I
                        would be pretty safe as long as the darn thing stayed together and
                        floated.....upright but low in the water or on its side or even up side down....any of
                        those would be tolerable for me....so my requirements are not as demanding as
                        some...

                        Now, if your cruising is more "serious" then yeah, get the stability and
                        orientation issues worked out much better....

                        Something did occur to me today thinking about such things.....if your cabin
                        is fairly assymetric and depending on how much air it holds or how intact it
                        is or how much foam you have in the walls/ceiling of the cabin and where it
                        is and how much flotation
                        you have on the "non-cabin" side, the assymetric cabin may offer another
                        advantage. It may ONLY be stable upright....or in other words you turn it upside
                        down and the cabin flotation flips it upright again...and even if it doesn't,
                        it may provide enough "help" to make using your own body weight to "un
                        turtle" the beast easier ....

                        So, such a cabin may make a rollover just that....always a rollover and
                        never a turtle situation....of course the cabin would probably make a rollover
                        more probable.....but if it meant it could never turtle......thats a trade off
                        I'd happily live with.


                        take care


                        Blll


                        In a message dated 6/2/2006 11:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
                        graeme19121984@... writes:

                        There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                        but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                        righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                        something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                        may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                        brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                        superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                        contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                        flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                        shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                        self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                        position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                        some effort.

                        Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                        can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                        doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                        then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                        floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                        orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                        be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                        put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                        things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.






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