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Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe

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  • graeme19121984
    ... Bill s Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c= /Bill s Sketch
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
      > In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
      > coletta_j@... writes:
      > Bill,
      >> You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
      >
      > Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing...

      Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe

      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=

      /Bill's Sketch

      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
      I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
      re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
      larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)

      "It was just like the plans except that they'd (an Italian couple)
      made it longer and wider, but not higher, than the plans called for
      and made the bow pointed instead of the designed bow transom, and
      eliminated the keel (replacing it with a single leeboard), and
      rearranged the cockpit, and substituted a cat-schooner lug rig for
      the designed cat-yawl. Susanne commented mildly that it did not look
      much like an Old Shoe, but in fact it did not look bad. I have no
      problem with people who want to exercise creativity, especially
      when, as in this case, their design (not mine, wherever it started!)
      looks and sails well and made them happy... ...The design is an
      obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a removable one to
      use in appropriate weather. That would make one heavy-weather
      capable indeed..." (PCB&F)

      Which other Bolger boat attracts/invites so much interest in
      modification? Quite a few do, no doubt, but Old Shoe must be well in
      the lead. And as for variants actually built... again I'd bet this
      design is probably #1! (excepting Windsprint?). In the above Italian
      job: did they use moveable sandbag ballast - like Matt Leyden's EC
      winner, Enigma?

      Cheers
      Graeme
    • BllFs6@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/1/2006 9:09:48 PM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Bill s Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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        In a message dated 6/1/2006 9:09:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
        graeme19121984@... writes:

        Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe

        http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=

        /Bill's Sketch

        http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
        I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
        re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
        larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)





        Thanks Graeme!

        Does my layout look ok? make any sense?

        Would you make some things larger and others smaller? and why?

        I'm sure the layout (besides the general concept) could use alot of
        tweaking/refining...

        Here is something I wrote to Frank about it:


        remember....in no way is this sketch detailed or optimized....its just shows
        the spatial relationship between the sitting areas, storage areas, foot
        wells, cabin etc etc...


        In reality you'd probably want to shift things around a bit from what the
        sketch shows....though "basically" the layout would likely stay the same.


        The biggest unknown....or the thing I have though about the least is the
        actual cabin....I know it would be of low height where your legs stick under the
        port seat and be higher than that elsewhere but other than that I havent any
        firm ideas....is it 4? foot high everywhere in the high part....or is
        different heights in different areas....or is sloped? or curved? or stepped?.....
        hatches? - number, size and location? access/hatchway design/layout ?....etc
        etc

        Also remember I have not real experience in
        sailing/cruising.....particularly in smaller boats.....

        My "big" contribution? here is the idea for the layout itself...fine details
        and refinement are probably best done by those with much more experience....

        The sketch just basically shows the "floorplan"

        take care

        Blll



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kenneth Grome
        Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it s an open boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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          Hi Bill,

          The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

          By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

          Kenneth Grome
          Bagacay Boatworks






          On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:07:54 -0000, graeme19121984 wrote:
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
          >> In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
          >> coletta_j@... writes:
          >> Bill,
          >>> You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
          >>
          >> Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing...
          >
          > Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe
          >
          > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=
          >
          > /Bill's Sketch
          >
          > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
          > I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
          > re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
          > larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)
          >
          > "It was just like the plans except that they'd (an Italian couple)
          > made it longer and wider, but not higher, than the plans called for
          > and made the bow pointed instead of the designed bow transom, and
          > eliminated the keel (replacing it with a single leeboard), and
          > rearranged the cockpit, and substituted a cat-schooner lug rig for
          > the designed cat-yawl. Susanne commented mildly that it did not look
          > much like an Old Shoe, but in fact it did not look bad. I have no
          > problem with people who want to exercise creativity, especially
          > when, as in this case, their design (not mine, wherever it started!)
          > looks and sails well and made them happy... ...The design is an
          > obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a removable one to
          > use in appropriate weather. That would make one heavy-weather
          > capable indeed..." (PCB&F)
          >
          > Which other Bolger boat attracts/invites so much interest in
          > modification? Quite a few do, no doubt, but Old Shoe must be well in
          > the lead. And as for variants actually built... again I'd bet this
          > design is probably #1! (excepting Windsprint?). In the above Italian
          > job: did they use moveable sandbag ballast - like Matt Leyden's EC
          > winner, Enigma?
          >
          > Cheers
          > Graeme
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • graeme19121984
          ... Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all Common
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
            > Does my layout look ok? make any sense? Would you make some things
            >larger and others smaller? and why? I'm sure the layout (besides
            >the general concept) could use a lot of tweaking/refining...

            Hi Bill,

            your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
            only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
            Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
            they are fashionable or character boats."

            I'll try as best I can to address some of the implications of your
            Old Shoe modification ideas. These are just my initial thoughts and
            impressions. I'm not any kind of naval architect, rather, just as
            you seem to be, along with many here, I often wonder how a design
            might be altered a bit to accomodate some need better. And whether
            it would work out!

            You have really approached this design problem of having a small
            sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
            more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
            Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
            sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
            consider.

            Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
            lines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
            may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
            may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
            bodies. Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
            plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
            component will have to be made.

            SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
            hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
            compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
            float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
            scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
            top of the footwell will be higher than the external water. That is
            200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could arise
            without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
            under you.In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
            hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
            save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
            you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed. The storage
            compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
            seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
            Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ). If they are dedicated to
            flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
            spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
            in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
            where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
            for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
            inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
            sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
            the offset footwell is flooded?

            The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
            difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
            creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
            arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
            rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
            mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
            as: "

            >IT DOES GIVE up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original
            >oldshoe for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can
            >still be "topside". It does have the advantage of having a
            >cabin/area that you can securely put one or two little kids in, or
            >an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults. You could
            >probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
            >boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare
            >minimum... "

            and

            >"AGAIN, IN SOME respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but
            >it looks to me that it would be a great daysailer that at a
            >minimum can sail 2 adults easily, with a cabin for at least one
            >adult to duck into in bad weather (around here on the northern
            >gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly predictable
            >except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
            >for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".

            " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
            may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
            claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
            claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
            and dry.


            Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
            markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
            back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
            may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
            uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
            concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


            > but I did run around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and
            laying in closets and under funiture etc etc...
            LOL. In addition to you and me, I'm sure many a Bolgerado has done
            this. Does Mr Bolger, do you think? He's had clients draw outlines
            in their driveways etc. when elucidating their wants and needs.

            To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
            sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
            SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
            an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
            (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
            once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
            function is very "Bolger"}).

            Thanks for sharing this outa-the-box idea with us. Please keep up
            development, and keep us informed how it goes.

            Cheers
            Graeme
          • Peter Lenihan
            ... I ve sent ... Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file! I applaud your
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi all
              >
              >
              > This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff
              I've sent
              > about it in the other thread together here.

              > Peter and Graeme did you get the sketch file I sent you?


              Hi B111

              Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
              Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

              I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
              I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
              got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
              too much into too small a package.

              Having built and owned a MICRO, I am certainly no stranger to how
              seductive these "shapes" can be nor to how they may equally inspire
              dozens of custom modifications.Afterall, can you imagine an easier
              shape to work with considering their slab-sidedness and all of that
              appealing interior volume? :-)

              Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
              the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
              boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
              privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
              use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
              options:
              a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
              as per your sketches,or
              b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
              experienced based real needs.


              Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
              small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
              that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
              all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
              with any big cabin structures :-)

              In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
              your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
              original state shall not be too much hardship :-)


              Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
              for even offering up several different modifications to move the
              effort forward some.

              Nevertheless,I do look forward to following your project and hope
              that you will get to experience the grand pleasures of
              building,launching and using your very own magic carpet ride to
              happy adventures!


              Sincerely,

              Peter Lenihan, just another chicken-shit builder who sticks to the
              plans and only strays with great trepidation,all the while
              fascinated by those who happily blaze their own trails( what guts
              that must take!), from along the shores of the mighty
              St.Lawrence..........
            • BllFs6@aol.com
              Hi Peter Thanks much for the thoughtful response. But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding! Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                Hi Peter


                Thanks much for the thoughtful response.

                But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding!


                Hi B111

                Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
                Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

                Well, I guess its good that I didnt send the 14MB file that was scanned at
                720dpi!




                I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
                I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
                got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
                too much into too small a package.
                I tend to think that I am trying to use the given space in a different way
                more so than trying add stuff given I am knowingly give up some of Oldshoe's
                better virtue's.


                Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
                the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
                boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
                privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
                use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
                options:
                a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
                as per your sketches,or

                If these were minor or relatively minor tweaks or something that could be
                added onto the existing structure I would very much agree, but given that about
                the only thing that would be original Oldshoe would be the sails, hull shell,
                and keel, I am not sure how much that would help given how different the new
                layout would be from the old.

                I could use Oldshoe with some kinda tent or removable hardtop sorta thing
                and I might find it to be perfectly acceptable.....BUT I would never know how
                much better/worse different something like my proposal would be until I tried
                it. So I guess I really need to build both versions!



                b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
                experienced based real needs.

                Perhaps, but I think I'd get a fair idea of whether Oldshoe was big enough
                or not for what I wanted using either model version.

                Also, I really like Oldshoe because it seems for me at least to be "Just big
                enough". Go up to the Micro say and the mass is ALOT more, mast
                significantly harder to manhandle, and the sails cost about 50 percent more IIRC.


                Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
                small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
                that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
                all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
                with any big cabin structures :-)

                Yes, that is the good part. If I were to come across some gotcha in
                construction or use of my version, it would be more of an "aww crud" rather than
                "OHHH NOOO!"

                Yes on cabin weight. Fortunately I have enough engineering type experience
                to know how to make something strong in ways other than just using
                thick/thicker plywood.



                In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
                your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
                original state shall not be too much hardship :-)

                Well, if my version was a flop for me at least it would be a true
                original...a true oddity among oddities...you think an Oldshoe is hard to find.....try
                finding a Gnushoe! Heck, I could probably sell it to some mentally unbalanced
                Bolgerista for a decent amount because they just gotta try it out :)




                Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
                for even offering up several different modifications to move the
                effort forward some.


                No problem Peter.

                Getting others people opinion always helps in one of two ways...either you
                realize the error of your ways and are saved from yourself orrrrrr you get even
                more entrenched in thought that your idea is the RIGHT idea, removing any
                pesky linger doubts you should have obviously never had in the first place!

                This isnt a project so much a alot of thinking and dreaming at this
                stage....but maybe this thread will help out others with thier projects, ideas, and
                thought processes.

                Again thanks.

                take care

                Blll





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • BllFs6@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                  In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  graeme19121984@... writes:

                  Hi Bill,

                  your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
                  only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
                  Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
                  they are fashionable or character boats."


                  So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form follows
                  function then my design would be amazingly functional given its amazingly bad looks
                  :) Hey, in a millionaire marina when you have a tiny boat....any publicity
                  is good publicity! My other dream project is still to build John Welsfords?
                  Nano Shanty, making it look as much like a floating run down poor white trash
                  trialer with a few chickens on top and anchoring next a fancy marina for a
                  weekend. I'd also have to get up speed on how to properly chew and spit chewing
                  tobaccee for this to have maximum effect. And I think I could manage to
                  strap a mini keg and a tire rim on there somewhere as well.


                  You have really approached this design problem of having a small
                  sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
                  more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
                  Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
                  sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
                  consider.


                  Thank you very much for the compliment, though I had my inspirations. First,
                  obviously Bolgers trend of thinking outa the box and letting form follow
                  function, as well as the Oldshoe design itself. Also, all these designs on the
                  internet of micro cruisers gets one to thinking of what you need cabin wise if
                  all it is to be used for is sleeping. And other designers out there with
                  design features not found on your common commerical boats.




                  Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
                  l ines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
                  may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
                  may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
                  bodies.


                  My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe. I drew it with a 5 foot
                  beam, a 1.5 foot bow, and a 3 foot wide transom. Does anybody have the real
                  measurements for the bow and transom? And perhaps a few more measurements across
                  the hull so I could get the plan view shape of the hull correct? Dont worry,
                  not trying to backwards engineer Old Shoe, when and if this project ever goes
                  forward I will be buying a set of Oldshoe plans.


                  Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
                  plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
                  component will have to be made.

                  Yes, I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would be
                  different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I. We dont mind that at
                  all, but then again it could get ugly and we might never speak to ourselves
                  again.



                  SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
                  hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
                  compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
                  float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
                  scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
                  top of the footwell will be higher than the external water.


                  Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the hull is a
                  curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in the center in relation
                  to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor needs to be flat, and I would
                  prefer that the footwell be flat and above the external water as well because I
                  want it to seriously self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat
                  plywood panels, you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                  feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I dont recall
                  the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at least decent IIRC. Now
                  this DOES eat into cabin height and footwell depth, but how badly and at what
                  costs to other considerations I do not know.


                  That is 200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could
                  arise
                  without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
                  under you.

                  No doubt about that.....at the very least the design will have to float the
                  lead, any attached heavy stuff like the anchor, motor, battery, and a certain
                  amount of the structure itself above water. I think that is doable. Now HOW
                  high, dry, and stable this can be after after things have obviously gone bad
                  is the question. In my neck of the woods, with the geography, warm water,
                  sandy beachs, and the type of sailing I am likely to do, if you can keep a good
                  fraction of your body outa the water things probably wont turn out too bad.

                  In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
                  hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
                  save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
                  you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed.

                  I agree with you there too. Any stuff stored in the cabin like the sleeping
                  bag, padding extra clothing etc etc would be stored in "waterproof"
                  containers/bags and secured if at all possible. This keeps stuff dry (duh), may
                  provide helpful floation, and at least doesnt ADD unwanted "sinking forces" if
                  large amounts of water end up in the cabin due to hulling or add weight should
                  alot of water enter, then leave the cabin, thereby leaving lots of soggy heavy
                  wet stuff behind.

                  The storage
                  compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
                  seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
                  Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ).


                  True. I wound do my best to make under the seat storage relatively water
                  tight. I would also try to insure that they are least unlikely to accidently
                  open up. Then also store everything in containers (say tupperware of different
                  sizes and shapes). And also even if not much is stored in there, the storage
                  area is still filled with empty watertight containers.That way if storage
                  area itself is not watertight for prolonged emmersion, you are still getting a
                  decent fraction of the bouyancy you would get if the whole thing was just
                  filled with foam.

                  If they are dedicated to
                  flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
                  spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
                  in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
                  where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
                  for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
                  inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
                  sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
                  the offset footwell is flooded?

                  The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
                  difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
                  creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
                  arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
                  rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
                  mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
                  as....


                  Yes, at some point I'd have to stop hand waving and do some serious
                  calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously flooded under
                  different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then again it certainly isnt
                  something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it and hope for the best either.




                  " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
                  may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
                  claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
                  claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
                  and dry.


                  Well, if you are claustrophobic you are outa luck for sure. Not a problem
                  for me. The main measure for me is can I turn over, lay on my side, lay in a
                  fetal position without knee's hitting the wall and hopefully at least mostly
                  sit up somewhere? From my "floor plan" and some laying in closets recently, its
                  looks like the answer is a conditional yes.

                  I'd say the that my design still might not be bad for someone who doesnt
                  like cramped spaces. As drawn you still have as much if not more "floorspace"
                  outside the cabin as inside. That person just has to set up a tent to sleep in.
                  So the boat can still sleep 2, just that its gotta be a snug as a bug in a
                  rug type and a wide open spaces type. It just cant accomodate 2 wide open
                  spaces types. And if sailed by a wide open spaces type the cabin still provides a
                  few advantages. Quick place to duck in short term for say the pop up
                  thunderstorm or a quick bit of shade, or a place to warm up/change clothes if its
                  cold/windy/wet....The cabin is also a better storage space for bulky though
                  preferably not too heavy stuff. And finally, should things get really bad, its a
                  much better place to batten down the hatches and hold on for dear life than
                  in an open cockpit or tent!


                  Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
                  markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
                  back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
                  may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
                  uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
                  concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


                  Yes, that would certainly need some looking into. You might be able to put
                  in some railing (since you would need very little) instead of raising the hull
                  sides if it turned out you had to raise the seat hieght to maintain decent
                  footwell depth and still wanted that not gonna fall backwards outa the boat
                  feeling. But I "think" you could give up a bit on footwell depth and a bit on
                  backrest height and still have a workable solution...time for more boxes,
                  rulers, and sketches me thinks....



                  To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
                  sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
                  SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
                  an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
                  (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
                  once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
                  function very "Bolger"}).


                  Fair synopsis there. Don't get me wrong here. I dont think this is better
                  than Oldshoe in every respect. You do give up alot. Simplity of
                  design/construction. Costs. Proven track record. Probably some load carrying ability.
                  Probably some flooded stability. The ability to easily carry 4 or more folks. And
                  probably some other stuff that isnt obvious either at the moment or until you
                  try both versions out.

                  But I do think it you mostly gonna camp/cruise by your self or just daysail
                  with 3 total adults (and maybe one little kid) or 2 adults and and 2 possibly
                  3 little kids that the cabin does offer advantages that could be worth the
                  loss of some of the attributes of the orginal Oldshoe.




                  Again, thanks for the comments and input!

                  I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel idea.

                  I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen young man....form
                  may follow function but one must learn to control oneself" :)

                  I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a Micro.....might be able to get a
                  dedicated head and a nice sized one person cabin that way and still have a fair
                  bit of uptop space.....

                  A dedicated head.....THATS hows ya gets the women folk when it comes to
                  sailing! Well, that and sailing with a cute little dog with a doggy life jacket
                  on.

                  take care all

                  Blll


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • BllFs6@aol.com
                  In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time, bagacayboatworks@gmail.com writes: Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                    In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    bagacayboatworks@... writes:

                    Hi Bill,

                    The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
                    boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                    without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
                    the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
                    really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                    http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                    By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
                    than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
                    boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                    Kenneth Grome
                    Bagacay Boatworks



                    Hi Kenneth....

                    Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
                    However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
                    you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
                    advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
                    so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
                    disadvantages.

                    thanks for the input!

                    take care

                    Blll


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John and Kathy Trussell
                    An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB s Super Mouse found in BWAOM. John T ... From: BllFs6@aol.com To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse found in BWAOM.

                      John T
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: BllFs6@...
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:28 AM
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe



                      In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      bagacayboatworks@... writes:

                      Hi Bill,

                      The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
                      boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                      without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
                      the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
                      really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                      By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
                      than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
                      boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                      Kenneth Grome
                      Bagacay Boatworks



                      Hi Kenneth....

                      Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
                      However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
                      you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
                      advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
                      so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
                      disadvantages.

                      thanks for the input!

                      take care

                      Blll


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    • Nels
                      ... found in BWAOM. ... Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe. The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                        <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse
                        found in BWAOM.
                        >

                        Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe.

                        "The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                        removeable one to use in appropriate weather. That would make one
                        heavy-weather capable indeed, they're stiff as designed, with the
                        200lb of outside ballast giving a reassuring range of stability."

                        Nels
                      • graeme19121984
                        ... Kenneth, This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of flooding
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
                          wrote:
                          >If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin
                          >is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a
                          >locker for secure/dry storage:
                          >
                          > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                          Kenneth,

                          This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a
                          downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of
                          flooding through the hatchway they might like to stay in there :-)

                          Alternativeley, if the hatch acccess were not through the bulkhead
                          as pictured, but was a hatch in the raised deck shown, then there
                          might be just sufficient privacy for porta-potti use within. I guess
                          the hatch coaming might be chest high when sitting within. PCB has
                          drawn a few heads in the bow with the occupiers head and shoulders
                          protruding above deck. It would require a bit of agility in stepping
                          from the cockpit seat, up, over, and down into the hatch, but the
                          concession to some privacy might remove a bigger obstacle to some
                          peoples' crewing.

                          Cheers
                          Graeme
                        • graeme19121984
                          ... No not really. I don t know that it would look bad. Just that it does t have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a boat is supposed to look
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                            >, but I think it may meet all Common Sense Criteria including
                            >#5: "...They don't exist because they are fashionable or
                            >character boats."
                            >
                            > So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form
                            >follows function then my design would be amazingly functional given
                            >its amazingly bad looks :)

                            No not really. I don't know that it would look bad. Just that it
                            does't have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a
                            boat is supposed to look to be a good boat.



                            > My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe.

                            My mistake. I eyeballed it again - and counted grid squares ;-) and
                            your sketch seems ok .


                            >I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would
                            >be different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I.

                            Some of those things might be serving more than one function. PCB
                            can be quite suttle in this. PCB assigns a number to a design after
                            the offsets are calculated. Old Shoe is #449. PCB&F would probably
                            supply the offsets so you could completely change the internals and
                            keep exactly the same hull form, however the replacement internals
                            would need to satisfy the structural and other demands. I'm sure you
                            know more about that engineering stuff than I - just thought I'd
                            better mention it though :)

                            > SOLAS...
                            >Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the
                            >hull is a curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in
                            >the center in relation to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor
                            >needs to be flat, and I would prefer that the footwell be flat and
                            >above the external water as well because I want it to seriously
                            >self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat plywood panels,
                            >you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                            >feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I
                            >dont recall the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at
                            >least decent IIRC. Now this DOES eat into cabin height and
                            >footwell depth, but how badly and at what costs to other
                            >considerations I do not know.

                            There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                            but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                            righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                            something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                            may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                            brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                            superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                            contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                            flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                            shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                            self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                            position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                            some effort.

                            Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                            can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                            doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                            then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                            floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                            orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                            be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                            put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                            things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.

                            >calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously
                            >flooded under different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then
                            >again it certainly isnt something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it
                            >and hope for the best either.
                            >...time for more boxes, rulers, and sketches me thinks....

                            It's doable. Just gotta get out all the wrinkles.

                            > I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel
                            >idea. I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen
                            >young man....form may follow function but one must learn to
                            >control oneself" :) I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a
                            >Micro.....might be able to get a...

                            I'm sure Mr Bolger would have no trouble with assymetry per se.
                            You'd know you were going too far here though, if he mentioned
                            zealotry. ;-)

                            Cheers
                            Graeme
                          • BllFs6@aol.com
                            Hi Graeme Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Graeme


                              Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the
                              longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for sure.


                              Fortunately, when push comes to shove, the WAY I would use such a beast, I
                              would be pretty safe as long as the darn thing stayed together and
                              floated.....upright but low in the water or on its side or even up side down....any of
                              those would be tolerable for me....so my requirements are not as demanding as
                              some...

                              Now, if your cruising is more "serious" then yeah, get the stability and
                              orientation issues worked out much better....

                              Something did occur to me today thinking about such things.....if your cabin
                              is fairly assymetric and depending on how much air it holds or how intact it
                              is or how much foam you have in the walls/ceiling of the cabin and where it
                              is and how much flotation
                              you have on the "non-cabin" side, the assymetric cabin may offer another
                              advantage. It may ONLY be stable upright....or in other words you turn it upside
                              down and the cabin flotation flips it upright again...and even if it doesn't,
                              it may provide enough "help" to make using your own body weight to "un
                              turtle" the beast easier ....

                              So, such a cabin may make a rollover just that....always a rollover and
                              never a turtle situation....of course the cabin would probably make a rollover
                              more probable.....but if it meant it could never turtle......thats a trade off
                              I'd happily live with.


                              take care


                              Blll


                              In a message dated 6/2/2006 11:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
                              graeme19121984@... writes:

                              There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                              but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                              righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                              something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                              may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                              brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                              superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                              contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                              flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                              shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                              self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                              position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                              some effort.

                              Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                              can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                              doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                              then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                              floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                              orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                              be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                              put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                              things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.






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