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RE: [bolger] Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe

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  • FRANK Coletta
    Bill, You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design. Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing. 1. I am concerned about
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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      Bill,

      You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.

      Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing.

      1. I am concerned about side-to-side trim with the cabin on the side.
      2. Where would the mast be situated in the layout.
      3. From what I have read 3.5 feet of headroom is sufficient to sit upright
      in the cabin.
      4. The seat foot well arrangement makes for a checkerboard affair that my
      be hard to build.
      5. Can the two foot wells be doable with a full width thwart seat with a
      foot well on one side aft and the other side forward?
      6. I wonder how a Birdwatcher slotted cabin arrangement might work on an
      Old Shoe.

      Thank you for sharing your ideas with us.

      Frank




      >From: BllFs6@...
      >Reply-To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      >To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [bolger] Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe
      >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:13 EDT
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Hi all
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff I've sent�
      >
      >about it in the other thread together here.
      >
      >
      >
      >Basically, it is an oldshoe with a decent sized one person permanent cabin�
      >
      >which can still easily daysail 2 to 3 adults and still sleep 2 if one�
      >sleeps
      >
      >outside the cabin. It should also be good for a husband and wife with 2/3�
      >
      >little kids as the cabin could be a good place to put the rug rats.
      >
      >
      >
      >Peter and Graeme did you get the sketch file I sent you?
      >
      >
      >
      >Anyway, if someone wants the sketch of the layout let me know....the�
      >current
      >
      >scanned file is about 800KB...I can scan it at a different resolution if�
      >
      >someone needs that...and if someone could post it in the photo/files
      >section�
      >
      >that would be great since my computer and yahoo dont get along at all for
      >some�
      >
      >reason.
      >
      >
      >
      >take care
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Blll
      >
      >
      >
      >here is the sketch......scanned at 200 dpi, grayscale
      >
      >
      >
      >if you print it at high quality mode (vs draft or regular quality) you can�
      >
      >see the graph paper lines/grids better...and you may have to print it out
      >as�
      >
      >color rather than grayscale for it to look better (for some strange�
      >reason...)
      >
      >
      >
      >in no way is this layout optimized, but it looks fairly functional as�
      >
      >is....at least I think so....but there are still ALOT of details to be�
      >
      >decided/worked out
      >
      >
      >
      >playing with a bunch of boxes, stacks of books, scrap lumber, and a� friend
      >
      >or two in the garage would probably go a long way towards optimizing the�
      >final
      >
      >layout...
      >
      >
      >
      >If you need a higher quality scan, let me know....I just did not want to�
      >
      >overload your internet connection
      >
      >
      >
      >take care
      >
      >
      >
      >Blll
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >A super quick description...
      >
      >
      >
      >The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this the important/unique?�
      >part
      >
      >
      >
      >It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat
      >
      >
      >
      >These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would be�
      >laying
      >
      >down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats in the rear�
      >
      >part of the boat
      >
      >
      >
      >The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the boat� at
      >a
      >
      >more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or take a� bit
      >
      >
      >
      >Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the wall of�
      >
      >the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wall that is
      >along�
      >
      >the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Its probably
      >
      >better� if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline, getting most
      >of the
      >
      >way to� the other side as it nears the bow.
      >
      >
      >
      >The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center, over the�
      >
      >cabin, as described above.� The other is on the other side of the boat and�
      >at
      >
      >the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way and touch�
      >at
      >
      >the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore and one aft,
      >or�
      >
      >one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard (if they
      >dont
      >
      > mind their legs in the same "well")
      >
      >
      >
      >Assuming the cabin is on the port side,� you still have some space� forward
      >
      >of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third person to sit�
      >on
      >
      >the starboard side facing aft.
      >
      >
      >
      >And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special seat,
      >you�
      >
      >could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin, with their
      >
      >head� out and above the roof seated near the center of the boat facing�
      >starboard.
      >
      >
      >
      >Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be the hull�
      >
      >shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to the hull would
      >have�
      >
      >to be redesigned.
      >
      >
      >
      >Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two small�
      >
      >children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short term shelter�
      >decently.
      >
      >Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, which is� good
      >since
      >
      >two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall, preventing� any
      >
      >inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!
      >
      >
      >
      >Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy to�
      >
      >provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat, without
      >having� to
      >
      >go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you something good to�
      >hang
      >
      >on to as you go to the bow.
      >
      >
      >
      >You could also apply this layout to the micro...
      >
      >
      >
      >��
      >
      >
      >
      >In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:34:00 PM Central Daylight Time,�
      >
      >graeme19121984@... writes:
      >
      >
      >
      >A sketch� would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
      >
      >my mind's� eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
      >
      >available. I don't� quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
      >
      >straight enough on the� starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
      >
      >flooded stability, but perhaps� it can all get away overboard quickly
      >
      >without� impediment.
      >
      >
      >
      >Graeme
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >There would be a foot well/bottom of the hull area about 4 feet long�� and
      >
      >2.5 feet wide on the starboard side which would be between the rear seat
      >on� the
      >
      >starboard side and the front/bow seat on the starboad side.
      >
      >
      >
      >If the space under the rear seat is not used, again your legs can stick�
      >
      >under it and a body might fit laying down in foot well. But what would
      >probably�
      >
      >make more sense are some boards/planels that you lay across the footwell,�
      >
      >thereby providing a flush raised deck that spans across the front starboard
      >seat�
      >
      >to the rear starboard seat.
      >
      >
      >
      >So the area under the aft starboard seat would probably be for� storage.
      >
      >
      >
      >Again, the sleeping length is 7 feet give or take. The bow area of� the
      >this
      >
      >sleeping deck would be the narrow end, so you would most� likely want to
      >sleep
      >
      >with you head at the aft end.
      >
      >
      >
      >Another advantage of this layout, is if the outside sleeper needs� shelter,
      >
      >"all" you have to do is run a tent/tarp from the cabin wall to the� hull
      >wall,
      >
      >so you are basically running a roof between 2 decently tall rigid�
      >structures,
      >
      >making the "tent" much more secure, and fairly� simple. And I would think
      >
      >having "real" walls on a tent would go a long way� towards reducing the
      >typical
      >
      >tent problem of water seeping in from the� sides.
      >
      >
      >
      >You might even be able to engineer thin solid panels that either store�
      >
      >on/under the cabin roof or on cabin floor or in/on the cabin wall that span
      >from�
      >
      >the cabin wall to the hull to make your outside sleeping area. You might
      >even
      >
      >be� able to make it so they are attached to the cabin with hinges say and
      >you
      >
      >just� flip them over/up and bang, you gottcha yourself another little
      >cabin.
      >
      >
      >
      >I think you could work it out so that a porta potty� would store under� the
      >
      >foward starboard seat. Not sure weather you would want it to stay under
      >the�
      >
      >seat and you just lift a lid to use it....or maybe it slides into the
      >cockpit�
      >
      >area to use....or maybe it slides out towards the port side to be used�
      >inside
      >
      >the cabin.
      >
      >
      >
      >This would certainly be an odd looking boat....and oldshoe is a bit odd�
      >
      >looking to start with..but I fell in love with that design instantly and I
      >still�
      >
      >think its my favorite.
      >
      >
      >
      >It does give up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original oldshoe�
      >
      >for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can still be "topside".
      >It�
      >
      >does have the advantage of having a cabin/area that you can securely put
      >one or
      >
      > two little kids in, or an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2
      >adults.
      >
      >You� could probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in
      >the
      >
      >boat if� you kept what you brought aboard to a bare minimum.
      >
      >
      >
      >I sketched this out only knowing oldshoe's length and beam and eyeballing�
      >
      >the width of the blunt bow, the width of the stern, and guessing at what
      >the�
      >
      >curve that defines the hull sides is like. I also guesstimated how much
      >space�
      >
      >the transom/motor well needs and the bow anchor well also. Its hard for me
      >to�
      >
      >guage how usefull/big/small the seats/footwells/cabin are, but I did run
      >
      >around� sitting on alot of things with a ruler and laying in closets and
      >under
      >
      >funiture� etc etc...
      >
      >
      >
      >Again, in some respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but it� looks
      >to
      >
      >me that it would be a great daysailer that at a minimum can sail 2� adults
      >
      >easily, with a cabin for at least one adult to duck into in bad� weather
      >(around
      >
      >here on the northern gulf coast, the weather is typically good� and fairly
      >
      >predictable except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont� last
      >long), and
      >
      >for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".
      >
      >
      >
      >Since if I were using it thats how it would be used I think it would� be a
      >
      >better match for me that oldshoe� original.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      >
      >
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    • BllFs6@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time, coletta_j@msn.com writes: Bill, You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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        In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
        coletta_j@... writes:

        Bill,

        You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.

        Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing.

        1. I am concerned about side-to-side trim with the cabin on the side.
        2. Where would the mast be situated in the layout.
        3. From what I have read 3.5 feet of headroom is sufficient to sit upright
        in the cabin.
        4. The seat foot well arrangement makes for a checkerboard affair that my
        be hard to build.
        5. Can the two foot wells be doable with a full width thwart seat with a
        foot well on one side aft and the other side forward?
        6. I wonder how a Birdwatcher slotted cabin arrangement might work on an
        Old Shoe.

        Thank you for sharing your ideas with us.

        Frank



        Hi Frank...

        1. Yes, the cabin does present an asymetric port/starboard load thats built
        into the boat. But I dont think its as bad as it sounds. Anyway, you will note
        that I have two storage areas on the opposite side of the boat, plus the
        porta potty is on the opposite side as well. I figure you store heavy/dense
        stuff like tools, flares, metal parts, extra chain/anchor, batteries, water
        bottles etc etc in those storage areas. Or perhaps a cooler in one of them...or
        make on those areas a built in cooler even....I think that would go a long way
        towards balancing out the extra weight due to the cabin on one side.... the
        cabin aint that big IMHO..

        2. The masts would be were they were on orginal Oldshoe...pretty much at the
        very bow for the main and pretty much at the very stern for the mizzen?

        3. Like I said, I need to go in the garage with a bunch of carboard boxes
        and play in/on them. As far as a man with a female sailing companion goes...we
        need to tackle the Holy Grail of small craft cruising here....the ability to
        use the porta potty INSIDE the cabin....

        4. Yes, it would be a bit harder to build, but I dont think it requires any
        special skills and there are in my mind good reasons to build it that
        way...see 5 below..

        5. Do you mean you want the port seat to extend all the way across the boat
        and do away with the aft starboard seat? If so, I dont like it. With the
        checkerboard layout either way either person sits they already have a built in
        back rest of sorts. They are also always sorta facing each other "knee to
        knee"....and socially/conversation wise I like that alot more....and facing
        somewhat opposite directions has another benifit.....more likely to see either good
        or bad things outside the boat....

        Hey Dave, check out those cool dolphins over there!

        Uhhh, Bob....is that a torpedo headed our way?!

        A "bench" running across the boat doesnt allow these things....but hey, some
        folks may like it....

        If you reall wanna get weird, think about side by side seating.....where
        lets say you always sit on the port side looking starboard....and you only have
        a footwell on the starboard side of the boat...might allow for some
        advantages in a design....

        6. I kept playing with some kinda sloted cabin idea in my mind and I didnt
        like it for several reasons. A boat this short and narrow it just doesnt seem
        to work...if you have sleeping areas on both sides of the "isle", either the
        isle or the sleeping areas are pretty narrow...and probably both...If someone
        is laying down and part of the isle space is used as a sleeping area, if you
        gotta get to bow fast they are in the way,,,,if stuff is stored in isle its
        in the way as well. If the porta pottie is to be used in the isle and
        someone's laying down you get to use it right next to them and women folk aint gonna
        like that at all.

        If you think about it abstractly....My design has put all the isle space
        outside the cabin where it can do double duty as footwell/cockpit space...and is
        still convertable to sleeping square footage....also, you can just throw
        stuff in my cabin anywere and its not gonna be in the way if you going to the
        bow.

        Just some thoughts....take care

        Blll


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • BllFs6@aol.com
        In a message dated 6/1/2006 4:50:24 PM Central Daylight Time, BllFs6@aol.com writes: 6. I kept playing with some kinda sloted cabin idea in my mind and I
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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          In a message dated 6/1/2006 4:50:24 PM Central Daylight Time, BllFs6@...
          writes:

          6. I kept playing with some kinda sloted cabin idea in my mind and I didnt
          like it for several reasons. A boat this short and narrow it just doesnt
          seem
          to work...if you have sleeping areas on both sides of the "isle", either
          the
          isle or the sleeping areas are pretty narrow...and probably both...If
          someone
          is laying down and part of the isle space is used as a sleeping area, if
          you
          gotta get to bow fast they are in the way,,,,if stuff is stored in isle its
          in the way as well. If the porta pottie is to be used in the isle and
          someone's laying down you get to use it right next to them and women folk
          aint gonna
          like that at all.



          one thought just occured to me

          You have a cabin the front with no isle....just sleeping space...the cabin
          wall is basically flush with the hull on one side. However on the other side
          you have a narrow walking space, which could either be at the same level as the
          top of the hull, or it might be a narrow foot well lower than the top of the
          hull but still has space underneath it that is usable/accessable in the
          cabin below

          take care

          Blll


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • graeme19121984
          ... Bill s Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c= /Bill s Sketch
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
            > In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
            > coletta_j@... writes:
            > Bill,
            >> You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
            >
            > Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing...

            Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe

            http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=

            /Bill's Sketch

            http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
            I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
            re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
            larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)

            "It was just like the plans except that they'd (an Italian couple)
            made it longer and wider, but not higher, than the plans called for
            and made the bow pointed instead of the designed bow transom, and
            eliminated the keel (replacing it with a single leeboard), and
            rearranged the cockpit, and substituted a cat-schooner lug rig for
            the designed cat-yawl. Susanne commented mildly that it did not look
            much like an Old Shoe, but in fact it did not look bad. I have no
            problem with people who want to exercise creativity, especially
            when, as in this case, their design (not mine, wherever it started!)
            looks and sails well and made them happy... ...The design is an
            obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a removable one to
            use in appropriate weather. That would make one heavy-weather
            capable indeed..." (PCB&F)

            Which other Bolger boat attracts/invites so much interest in
            modification? Quite a few do, no doubt, but Old Shoe must be well in
            the lead. And as for variants actually built... again I'd bet this
            design is probably #1! (excepting Windsprint?). In the above Italian
            job: did they use moveable sandbag ballast - like Matt Leyden's EC
            winner, Enigma?

            Cheers
            Graeme
          • BllFs6@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/1/2006 9:09:48 PM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Bill s Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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              In a message dated 6/1/2006 9:09:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
              graeme19121984@... writes:

              Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe

              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=

              /Bill's Sketch

              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
              I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
              re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
              larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)





              Thanks Graeme!

              Does my layout look ok? make any sense?

              Would you make some things larger and others smaller? and why?

              I'm sure the layout (besides the general concept) could use alot of
              tweaking/refining...

              Here is something I wrote to Frank about it:


              remember....in no way is this sketch detailed or optimized....its just shows
              the spatial relationship between the sitting areas, storage areas, foot
              wells, cabin etc etc...


              In reality you'd probably want to shift things around a bit from what the
              sketch shows....though "basically" the layout would likely stay the same.


              The biggest unknown....or the thing I have though about the least is the
              actual cabin....I know it would be of low height where your legs stick under the
              port seat and be higher than that elsewhere but other than that I havent any
              firm ideas....is it 4? foot high everywhere in the high part....or is
              different heights in different areas....or is sloped? or curved? or stepped?.....
              hatches? - number, size and location? access/hatchway design/layout ?....etc
              etc

              Also remember I have not real experience in
              sailing/cruising.....particularly in smaller boats.....

              My "big" contribution? here is the idea for the layout itself...fine details
              and refinement are probably best done by those with much more experience....

              The sketch just basically shows the "floorplan"

              take care

              Blll



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kenneth Grome
              Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it s an open boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                Hi Bill,

                The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                Kenneth Grome
                Bagacay Boatworks






                On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:07:54 -0000, graeme19121984 wrote:
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                >> In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
                >> coletta_j@... writes:
                >> Bill,
                >>> You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
                >>
                >> Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing...
                >
                > Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe
                >
                > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=
                >
                > /Bill's Sketch
                >
                > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
                > I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
                > re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
                > larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)
                >
                > "It was just like the plans except that they'd (an Italian couple)
                > made it longer and wider, but not higher, than the plans called for
                > and made the bow pointed instead of the designed bow transom, and
                > eliminated the keel (replacing it with a single leeboard), and
                > rearranged the cockpit, and substituted a cat-schooner lug rig for
                > the designed cat-yawl. Susanne commented mildly that it did not look
                > much like an Old Shoe, but in fact it did not look bad. I have no
                > problem with people who want to exercise creativity, especially
                > when, as in this case, their design (not mine, wherever it started!)
                > looks and sails well and made them happy... ...The design is an
                > obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a removable one to
                > use in appropriate weather. That would make one heavy-weather
                > capable indeed..." (PCB&F)
                >
                > Which other Bolger boat attracts/invites so much interest in
                > modification? Quite a few do, no doubt, but Old Shoe must be well in
                > the lead. And as for variants actually built... again I'd bet this
                > design is probably #1! (excepting Windsprint?). In the above Italian
                > job: did they use moveable sandbag ballast - like Matt Leyden's EC
                > winner, Enigma?
                >
                > Cheers
                > Graeme
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                > dead horses
                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • graeme19121984
                ... Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all Common
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                  > Does my layout look ok? make any sense? Would you make some things
                  >larger and others smaller? and why? I'm sure the layout (besides
                  >the general concept) could use a lot of tweaking/refining...

                  Hi Bill,

                  your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
                  only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
                  Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
                  they are fashionable or character boats."

                  I'll try as best I can to address some of the implications of your
                  Old Shoe modification ideas. These are just my initial thoughts and
                  impressions. I'm not any kind of naval architect, rather, just as
                  you seem to be, along with many here, I often wonder how a design
                  might be altered a bit to accomodate some need better. And whether
                  it would work out!

                  You have really approached this design problem of having a small
                  sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
                  more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
                  Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
                  sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
                  consider.

                  Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
                  lines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
                  may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
                  may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
                  bodies. Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
                  plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
                  component will have to be made.

                  SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
                  hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
                  compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
                  float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
                  scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
                  top of the footwell will be higher than the external water. That is
                  200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could arise
                  without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
                  under you.In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
                  hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
                  save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
                  you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed. The storage
                  compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
                  seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
                  Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ). If they are dedicated to
                  flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
                  spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
                  in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
                  where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
                  for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
                  inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
                  sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
                  the offset footwell is flooded?

                  The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
                  difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
                  creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
                  arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
                  rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
                  mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
                  as: "

                  >IT DOES GIVE up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original
                  >oldshoe for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can
                  >still be "topside". It does have the advantage of having a
                  >cabin/area that you can securely put one or two little kids in, or
                  >an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults. You could
                  >probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
                  >boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare
                  >minimum... "

                  and

                  >"AGAIN, IN SOME respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but
                  >it looks to me that it would be a great daysailer that at a
                  >minimum can sail 2 adults easily, with a cabin for at least one
                  >adult to duck into in bad weather (around here on the northern
                  >gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly predictable
                  >except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
                  >for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".

                  " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
                  may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
                  claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
                  claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
                  and dry.


                  Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
                  markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
                  back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
                  may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
                  uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
                  concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


                  > but I did run around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and
                  laying in closets and under funiture etc etc...
                  LOL. In addition to you and me, I'm sure many a Bolgerado has done
                  this. Does Mr Bolger, do you think? He's had clients draw outlines
                  in their driveways etc. when elucidating their wants and needs.

                  To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
                  sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
                  SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
                  an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
                  (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
                  once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
                  function is very "Bolger"}).

                  Thanks for sharing this outa-the-box idea with us. Please keep up
                  development, and keep us informed how it goes.

                  Cheers
                  Graeme
                • Peter Lenihan
                  ... I ve sent ... Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file! I applaud your
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi all
                    >
                    >
                    > This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff
                    I've sent
                    > about it in the other thread together here.

                    > Peter and Graeme did you get the sketch file I sent you?


                    Hi B111

                    Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
                    Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

                    I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
                    I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
                    got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
                    too much into too small a package.

                    Having built and owned a MICRO, I am certainly no stranger to how
                    seductive these "shapes" can be nor to how they may equally inspire
                    dozens of custom modifications.Afterall, can you imagine an easier
                    shape to work with considering their slab-sidedness and all of that
                    appealing interior volume? :-)

                    Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
                    the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
                    boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
                    privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
                    use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
                    options:
                    a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
                    as per your sketches,or
                    b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
                    experienced based real needs.


                    Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
                    small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
                    that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
                    all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
                    with any big cabin structures :-)

                    In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
                    your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
                    original state shall not be too much hardship :-)


                    Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
                    for even offering up several different modifications to move the
                    effort forward some.

                    Nevertheless,I do look forward to following your project and hope
                    that you will get to experience the grand pleasures of
                    building,launching and using your very own magic carpet ride to
                    happy adventures!


                    Sincerely,

                    Peter Lenihan, just another chicken-shit builder who sticks to the
                    plans and only strays with great trepidation,all the while
                    fascinated by those who happily blaze their own trails( what guts
                    that must take!), from along the shores of the mighty
                    St.Lawrence..........
                  • BllFs6@aol.com
                    Hi Peter Thanks much for the thoughtful response. But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding! Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                      Hi Peter


                      Thanks much for the thoughtful response.

                      But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding!


                      Hi B111

                      Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
                      Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

                      Well, I guess its good that I didnt send the 14MB file that was scanned at
                      720dpi!




                      I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
                      I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
                      got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
                      too much into too small a package.
                      I tend to think that I am trying to use the given space in a different way
                      more so than trying add stuff given I am knowingly give up some of Oldshoe's
                      better virtue's.


                      Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
                      the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
                      boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
                      privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
                      use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
                      options:
                      a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
                      as per your sketches,or

                      If these were minor or relatively minor tweaks or something that could be
                      added onto the existing structure I would very much agree, but given that about
                      the only thing that would be original Oldshoe would be the sails, hull shell,
                      and keel, I am not sure how much that would help given how different the new
                      layout would be from the old.

                      I could use Oldshoe with some kinda tent or removable hardtop sorta thing
                      and I might find it to be perfectly acceptable.....BUT I would never know how
                      much better/worse different something like my proposal would be until I tried
                      it. So I guess I really need to build both versions!



                      b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
                      experienced based real needs.

                      Perhaps, but I think I'd get a fair idea of whether Oldshoe was big enough
                      or not for what I wanted using either model version.

                      Also, I really like Oldshoe because it seems for me at least to be "Just big
                      enough". Go up to the Micro say and the mass is ALOT more, mast
                      significantly harder to manhandle, and the sails cost about 50 percent more IIRC.


                      Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
                      small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
                      that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
                      all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
                      with any big cabin structures :-)

                      Yes, that is the good part. If I were to come across some gotcha in
                      construction or use of my version, it would be more of an "aww crud" rather than
                      "OHHH NOOO!"

                      Yes on cabin weight. Fortunately I have enough engineering type experience
                      to know how to make something strong in ways other than just using
                      thick/thicker plywood.



                      In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
                      your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
                      original state shall not be too much hardship :-)

                      Well, if my version was a flop for me at least it would be a true
                      original...a true oddity among oddities...you think an Oldshoe is hard to find.....try
                      finding a Gnushoe! Heck, I could probably sell it to some mentally unbalanced
                      Bolgerista for a decent amount because they just gotta try it out :)




                      Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
                      for even offering up several different modifications to move the
                      effort forward some.


                      No problem Peter.

                      Getting others people opinion always helps in one of two ways...either you
                      realize the error of your ways and are saved from yourself orrrrrr you get even
                      more entrenched in thought that your idea is the RIGHT idea, removing any
                      pesky linger doubts you should have obviously never had in the first place!

                      This isnt a project so much a alot of thinking and dreaming at this
                      stage....but maybe this thread will help out others with thier projects, ideas, and
                      thought processes.

                      Again thanks.

                      take care

                      Blll





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • BllFs6@aol.com
                      In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
                        graeme19121984@... writes:

                        Hi Bill,

                        your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
                        only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
                        Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
                        they are fashionable or character boats."


                        So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form follows
                        function then my design would be amazingly functional given its amazingly bad looks
                        :) Hey, in a millionaire marina when you have a tiny boat....any publicity
                        is good publicity! My other dream project is still to build John Welsfords?
                        Nano Shanty, making it look as much like a floating run down poor white trash
                        trialer with a few chickens on top and anchoring next a fancy marina for a
                        weekend. I'd also have to get up speed on how to properly chew and spit chewing
                        tobaccee for this to have maximum effect. And I think I could manage to
                        strap a mini keg and a tire rim on there somewhere as well.


                        You have really approached this design problem of having a small
                        sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
                        more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
                        Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
                        sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
                        consider.


                        Thank you very much for the compliment, though I had my inspirations. First,
                        obviously Bolgers trend of thinking outa the box and letting form follow
                        function, as well as the Oldshoe design itself. Also, all these designs on the
                        internet of micro cruisers gets one to thinking of what you need cabin wise if
                        all it is to be used for is sleeping. And other designers out there with
                        design features not found on your common commerical boats.




                        Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
                        l ines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
                        may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
                        may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
                        bodies.


                        My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe. I drew it with a 5 foot
                        beam, a 1.5 foot bow, and a 3 foot wide transom. Does anybody have the real
                        measurements for the bow and transom? And perhaps a few more measurements across
                        the hull so I could get the plan view shape of the hull correct? Dont worry,
                        not trying to backwards engineer Old Shoe, when and if this project ever goes
                        forward I will be buying a set of Oldshoe plans.


                        Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
                        plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
                        component will have to be made.

                        Yes, I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would be
                        different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I. We dont mind that at
                        all, but then again it could get ugly and we might never speak to ourselves
                        again.



                        SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
                        hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
                        compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
                        float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
                        scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
                        top of the footwell will be higher than the external water.


                        Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the hull is a
                        curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in the center in relation
                        to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor needs to be flat, and I would
                        prefer that the footwell be flat and above the external water as well because I
                        want it to seriously self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat
                        plywood panels, you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                        feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I dont recall
                        the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at least decent IIRC. Now
                        this DOES eat into cabin height and footwell depth, but how badly and at what
                        costs to other considerations I do not know.


                        That is 200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could
                        arise
                        without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
                        under you.

                        No doubt about that.....at the very least the design will have to float the
                        lead, any attached heavy stuff like the anchor, motor, battery, and a certain
                        amount of the structure itself above water. I think that is doable. Now HOW
                        high, dry, and stable this can be after after things have obviously gone bad
                        is the question. In my neck of the woods, with the geography, warm water,
                        sandy beachs, and the type of sailing I am likely to do, if you can keep a good
                        fraction of your body outa the water things probably wont turn out too bad.

                        In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
                        hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
                        save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
                        you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed.

                        I agree with you there too. Any stuff stored in the cabin like the sleeping
                        bag, padding extra clothing etc etc would be stored in "waterproof"
                        containers/bags and secured if at all possible. This keeps stuff dry (duh), may
                        provide helpful floation, and at least doesnt ADD unwanted "sinking forces" if
                        large amounts of water end up in the cabin due to hulling or add weight should
                        alot of water enter, then leave the cabin, thereby leaving lots of soggy heavy
                        wet stuff behind.

                        The storage
                        compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
                        seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
                        Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ).


                        True. I wound do my best to make under the seat storage relatively water
                        tight. I would also try to insure that they are least unlikely to accidently
                        open up. Then also store everything in containers (say tupperware of different
                        sizes and shapes). And also even if not much is stored in there, the storage
                        area is still filled with empty watertight containers.That way if storage
                        area itself is not watertight for prolonged emmersion, you are still getting a
                        decent fraction of the bouyancy you would get if the whole thing was just
                        filled with foam.

                        If they are dedicated to
                        flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
                        spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
                        in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
                        where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
                        for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
                        inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
                        sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
                        the offset footwell is flooded?

                        The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
                        difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
                        creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
                        arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
                        rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
                        mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
                        as....


                        Yes, at some point I'd have to stop hand waving and do some serious
                        calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously flooded under
                        different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then again it certainly isnt
                        something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it and hope for the best either.




                        " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
                        may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
                        claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
                        claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
                        and dry.


                        Well, if you are claustrophobic you are outa luck for sure. Not a problem
                        for me. The main measure for me is can I turn over, lay on my side, lay in a
                        fetal position without knee's hitting the wall and hopefully at least mostly
                        sit up somewhere? From my "floor plan" and some laying in closets recently, its
                        looks like the answer is a conditional yes.

                        I'd say the that my design still might not be bad for someone who doesnt
                        like cramped spaces. As drawn you still have as much if not more "floorspace"
                        outside the cabin as inside. That person just has to set up a tent to sleep in.
                        So the boat can still sleep 2, just that its gotta be a snug as a bug in a
                        rug type and a wide open spaces type. It just cant accomodate 2 wide open
                        spaces types. And if sailed by a wide open spaces type the cabin still provides a
                        few advantages. Quick place to duck in short term for say the pop up
                        thunderstorm or a quick bit of shade, or a place to warm up/change clothes if its
                        cold/windy/wet....The cabin is also a better storage space for bulky though
                        preferably not too heavy stuff. And finally, should things get really bad, its a
                        much better place to batten down the hatches and hold on for dear life than
                        in an open cockpit or tent!


                        Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
                        markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
                        back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
                        may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
                        uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
                        concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


                        Yes, that would certainly need some looking into. You might be able to put
                        in some railing (since you would need very little) instead of raising the hull
                        sides if it turned out you had to raise the seat hieght to maintain decent
                        footwell depth and still wanted that not gonna fall backwards outa the boat
                        feeling. But I "think" you could give up a bit on footwell depth and a bit on
                        backrest height and still have a workable solution...time for more boxes,
                        rulers, and sketches me thinks....



                        To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
                        sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
                        SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
                        an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
                        (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
                        once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
                        function very "Bolger"}).


                        Fair synopsis there. Don't get me wrong here. I dont think this is better
                        than Oldshoe in every respect. You do give up alot. Simplity of
                        design/construction. Costs. Proven track record. Probably some load carrying ability.
                        Probably some flooded stability. The ability to easily carry 4 or more folks. And
                        probably some other stuff that isnt obvious either at the moment or until you
                        try both versions out.

                        But I do think it you mostly gonna camp/cruise by your self or just daysail
                        with 3 total adults (and maybe one little kid) or 2 adults and and 2 possibly
                        3 little kids that the cabin does offer advantages that could be worth the
                        loss of some of the attributes of the orginal Oldshoe.




                        Again, thanks for the comments and input!

                        I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel idea.

                        I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen young man....form
                        may follow function but one must learn to control oneself" :)

                        I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a Micro.....might be able to get a
                        dedicated head and a nice sized one person cabin that way and still have a fair
                        bit of uptop space.....

                        A dedicated head.....THATS hows ya gets the women folk when it comes to
                        sailing! Well, that and sailing with a cute little dog with a doggy life jacket
                        on.

                        take care all

                        Blll


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • BllFs6@aol.com
                        In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time, bagacayboatworks@gmail.com writes: Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                          bagacayboatworks@... writes:

                          Hi Bill,

                          The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
                          boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                          without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
                          the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
                          really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                          By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
                          than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
                          boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                          Kenneth Grome
                          Bagacay Boatworks



                          Hi Kenneth....

                          Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
                          However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
                          you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
                          advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
                          so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
                          disadvantages.

                          thanks for the input!

                          take care

                          Blll


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John and Kathy Trussell
                          An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB s Super Mouse found in BWAOM. John T ... From: BllFs6@aol.com To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                            An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse found in BWAOM.

                            John T
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: BllFs6@...
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:28 AM
                            Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe



                            In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                            bagacayboatworks@... writes:

                            Hi Bill,

                            The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
                            boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                            without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
                            the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
                            really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                            http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                            By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
                            than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
                            boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                            Kenneth Grome
                            Bagacay Boatworks



                            Hi Kenneth....

                            Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
                            However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
                            you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
                            advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
                            so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
                            disadvantages.

                            thanks for the input!

                            take care

                            Blll


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          • Nels
                            ... found in BWAOM. ... Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe. The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                              <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse
                              found in BWAOM.
                              >

                              Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe.

                              "The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                              removeable one to use in appropriate weather. That would make one
                              heavy-weather capable indeed, they're stiff as designed, with the
                              200lb of outside ballast giving a reassuring range of stability."

                              Nels
                            • graeme19121984
                              ... Kenneth, This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of flooding
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
                                wrote:
                                >If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin
                                >is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a
                                >locker for secure/dry storage:
                                >
                                > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                                Kenneth,

                                This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a
                                downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of
                                flooding through the hatchway they might like to stay in there :-)

                                Alternativeley, if the hatch acccess were not through the bulkhead
                                as pictured, but was a hatch in the raised deck shown, then there
                                might be just sufficient privacy for porta-potti use within. I guess
                                the hatch coaming might be chest high when sitting within. PCB has
                                drawn a few heads in the bow with the occupiers head and shoulders
                                protruding above deck. It would require a bit of agility in stepping
                                from the cockpit seat, up, over, and down into the hatch, but the
                                concession to some privacy might remove a bigger obstacle to some
                                peoples' crewing.

                                Cheers
                                Graeme
                              • graeme19121984
                                ... No not really. I don t know that it would look bad. Just that it does t have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a boat is supposed to look
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                                  >, but I think it may meet all Common Sense Criteria including
                                  >#5: "...They don't exist because they are fashionable or
                                  >character boats."
                                  >
                                  > So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form
                                  >follows function then my design would be amazingly functional given
                                  >its amazingly bad looks :)

                                  No not really. I don't know that it would look bad. Just that it
                                  does't have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a
                                  boat is supposed to look to be a good boat.



                                  > My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe.

                                  My mistake. I eyeballed it again - and counted grid squares ;-) and
                                  your sketch seems ok .


                                  >I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would
                                  >be different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I.

                                  Some of those things might be serving more than one function. PCB
                                  can be quite suttle in this. PCB assigns a number to a design after
                                  the offsets are calculated. Old Shoe is #449. PCB&F would probably
                                  supply the offsets so you could completely change the internals and
                                  keep exactly the same hull form, however the replacement internals
                                  would need to satisfy the structural and other demands. I'm sure you
                                  know more about that engineering stuff than I - just thought I'd
                                  better mention it though :)

                                  > SOLAS...
                                  >Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the
                                  >hull is a curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in
                                  >the center in relation to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor
                                  >needs to be flat, and I would prefer that the footwell be flat and
                                  >above the external water as well because I want it to seriously
                                  >self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat plywood panels,
                                  >you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                                  >feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I
                                  >dont recall the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at
                                  >least decent IIRC. Now this DOES eat into cabin height and
                                  >footwell depth, but how badly and at what costs to other
                                  >considerations I do not know.

                                  There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                                  but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                                  righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                                  something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                                  may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                                  brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                                  superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                                  contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                                  flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                                  shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                                  self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                                  position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                                  some effort.

                                  Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                                  can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                                  doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                                  then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                                  floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                                  orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                                  be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                                  put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                                  things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.

                                  >calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously
                                  >flooded under different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then
                                  >again it certainly isnt something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it
                                  >and hope for the best either.
                                  >...time for more boxes, rulers, and sketches me thinks....

                                  It's doable. Just gotta get out all the wrinkles.

                                  > I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel
                                  >idea. I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen
                                  >young man....form may follow function but one must learn to
                                  >control oneself" :) I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a
                                  >Micro.....might be able to get a...

                                  I'm sure Mr Bolger would have no trouble with assymetry per se.
                                  You'd know you were going too far here though, if he mentioned
                                  zealotry. ;-)

                                  Cheers
                                  Graeme
                                • BllFs6@aol.com
                                  Hi Graeme Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Graeme


                                    Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the
                                    longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for sure.


                                    Fortunately, when push comes to shove, the WAY I would use such a beast, I
                                    would be pretty safe as long as the darn thing stayed together and
                                    floated.....upright but low in the water or on its side or even up side down....any of
                                    those would be tolerable for me....so my requirements are not as demanding as
                                    some...

                                    Now, if your cruising is more "serious" then yeah, get the stability and
                                    orientation issues worked out much better....

                                    Something did occur to me today thinking about such things.....if your cabin
                                    is fairly assymetric and depending on how much air it holds or how intact it
                                    is or how much foam you have in the walls/ceiling of the cabin and where it
                                    is and how much flotation
                                    you have on the "non-cabin" side, the assymetric cabin may offer another
                                    advantage. It may ONLY be stable upright....or in other words you turn it upside
                                    down and the cabin flotation flips it upright again...and even if it doesn't,
                                    it may provide enough "help" to make using your own body weight to "un
                                    turtle" the beast easier ....

                                    So, such a cabin may make a rollover just that....always a rollover and
                                    never a turtle situation....of course the cabin would probably make a rollover
                                    more probable.....but if it meant it could never turtle......thats a trade off
                                    I'd happily live with.


                                    take care


                                    Blll


                                    In a message dated 6/2/2006 11:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                    graeme19121984@... writes:

                                    There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                                    but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                                    righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                                    something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                                    may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                                    brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                                    superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                                    contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                                    flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                                    shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                                    self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                                    position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                                    some effort.

                                    Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                                    can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                                    doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                                    then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                                    floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                                    orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                                    be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                                    put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                                    things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.






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