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Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe

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  • BllFs6@aol.com
    Hi all This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff I ve sent about it in the other thread together here. Basically, it is an oldshoe with a
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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      Hi all


      This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff I've sent
      about it in the other thread together here.

      Basically, it is an oldshoe with a decent sized one person permanent cabin
      which can still easily daysail 2 to 3 adults and still sleep 2 if one sleeps
      outside the cabin. It should also be good for a husband and wife with 2/3
      little kids as the cabin could be a good place to put the rug rats.

      Peter and Graeme did you get the sketch file I sent you?

      Anyway, if someone wants the sketch of the layout let me know....the current
      scanned file is about 800KB...I can scan it at a different resolution if
      someone needs that...and if someone could post it in the photo/files section
      that would be great since my computer and yahoo dont get along at all for some
      reason.

      take care


      Blll

      here is the sketch......scanned at 200 dpi, grayscale

      if you print it at high quality mode (vs draft or regular quality) you can
      see the graph paper lines/grids better...and you may have to print it out as
      color rather than grayscale for it to look better (for some strange reason...)

      in no way is this layout optimized, but it looks fairly functional as
      is....at least I think so....but there are still ALOT of details to be
      decided/worked out

      playing with a bunch of boxes, stacks of books, scrap lumber, and a friend
      or two in the garage would probably go a long way towards optimizing the final
      layout...

      If you need a higher quality scan, let me know....I just did not want to
      overload your internet connection

      take care

      Blll




      A super quick description...

      The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this the important/unique? part

      It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat

      These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would be laying
      down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats in the rear
      part of the boat

      The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the boat at a
      more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or take a bit

      Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the wall of
      the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wall that is along
      the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Its probably
      better if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline, getting most of the
      way to the other side as it nears the bow.

      The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center, over the
      cabin, as described above. The other is on the other side of the boat and at
      the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way and touch at
      the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore and one aft, or
      one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard (if they dont
      mind their legs in the same "well")

      Assuming the cabin is on the port side, you still have some space forward
      of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third person to sit on
      the starboard side facing aft.

      And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special seat, you
      could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin, with their
      head out and above the roof seated near the center of the boat facing starboard.

      Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be the hull
      shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to the hull would have
      to be redesigned.

      Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two small
      children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short term shelter decently.
      Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, which is good since
      two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall, preventing any
      inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!

      Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy to
      provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat, without having to
      go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you something good to hang
      on to as you go to the bow.

      You could also apply this layout to the micro...



      In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:34:00 PM Central Daylight Time,
      graeme19121984@... writes:

      A sketch would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
      my mind's eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
      available. I don't quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
      straight enough on the starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
      flooded stability, but perhaps it can all get away overboard quickly
      without impediment.

      Graeme





      There would be a foot well/bottom of the hull area about 4 feet long and
      2.5 feet wide on the starboard side which would be between the rear seat on the
      starboard side and the front/bow seat on the starboad side.

      If the space under the rear seat is not used, again your legs can stick
      under it and a body might fit laying down in foot well. But what would probably
      make more sense are some boards/planels that you lay across the footwell,
      thereby providing a flush raised deck that spans across the front starboard seat
      to the rear starboard seat.

      So the area under the aft starboard seat would probably be for storage.

      Again, the sleeping length is 7 feet give or take. The bow area of the this
      sleeping deck would be the narrow end, so you would most likely want to sleep
      with you head at the aft end.

      Another advantage of this layout, is if the outside sleeper needs shelter,
      "all" you have to do is run a tent/tarp from the cabin wall to the hull wall,
      so you are basically running a roof between 2 decently tall rigid structures,
      making the "tent" much more secure, and fairly simple. And I would think
      having "real" walls on a tent would go a long way towards reducing the typical
      tent problem of water seeping in from the sides.

      You might even be able to engineer thin solid panels that either store
      on/under the cabin roof or on cabin floor or in/on the cabin wall that span from
      the cabin wall to the hull to make your outside sleeping area. You might even
      be able to make it so they are attached to the cabin with hinges say and you
      just flip them over/up and bang, you gottcha yourself another little cabin.

      I think you could work it out so that a porta potty would store under the
      foward starboard seat. Not sure weather you would want it to stay under the
      seat and you just lift a lid to use it....or maybe it slides into the cockpit
      area to use....or maybe it slides out towards the port side to be used inside
      the cabin.

      This would certainly be an odd looking boat....and oldshoe is a bit odd
      looking to start with..but I fell in love with that design instantly and I still
      think its my favorite.

      It does give up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original oldshoe
      for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can still be "topside". It
      does have the advantage of having a cabin/area that you can securely put one or
      two little kids in, or an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults.
      You could probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
      boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare minimum.

      I sketched this out only knowing oldshoe's length and beam and eyeballing
      the width of the blunt bow, the width of the stern, and guessing at what the
      curve that defines the hull sides is like. I also guesstimated how much space
      the transom/motor well needs and the bow anchor well also. Its hard for me to
      guage how usefull/big/small the seats/footwells/cabin are, but I did run
      around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and laying in closets and under
      funiture etc etc...

      Again, in some respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but it looks to
      me that it would be a great daysailer that at a minimum can sail 2 adults
      easily, with a cabin for at least one adult to duck into in bad weather (around
      here on the northern gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly
      predictable except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
      for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".

      Since if I were using it thats how it would be used I think it would be a
      better match for me that oldshoe original.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • FRANK Coletta
      Bill, You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design. Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing. 1. I am concerned about
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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        Bill,

        You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.

        Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing.

        1. I am concerned about side-to-side trim with the cabin on the side.
        2. Where would the mast be situated in the layout.
        3. From what I have read 3.5 feet of headroom is sufficient to sit upright
        in the cabin.
        4. The seat foot well arrangement makes for a checkerboard affair that my
        be hard to build.
        5. Can the two foot wells be doable with a full width thwart seat with a
        foot well on one side aft and the other side forward?
        6. I wonder how a Birdwatcher slotted cabin arrangement might work on an
        Old Shoe.

        Thank you for sharing your ideas with us.

        Frank




        >From: BllFs6@...
        >Reply-To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        >To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [bolger] Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe
        >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:50:13 EDT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Hi all
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff I've sent�
        >
        >about it in the other thread together here.
        >
        >
        >
        >Basically, it is an oldshoe with a decent sized one person permanent cabin�
        >
        >which can still easily daysail 2 to 3 adults and still sleep 2 if one�
        >sleeps
        >
        >outside the cabin. It should also be good for a husband and wife with 2/3�
        >
        >little kids as the cabin could be a good place to put the rug rats.
        >
        >
        >
        >Peter and Graeme did you get the sketch file I sent you?
        >
        >
        >
        >Anyway, if someone wants the sketch of the layout let me know....the�
        >current
        >
        >scanned file is about 800KB...I can scan it at a different resolution if�
        >
        >someone needs that...and if someone could post it in the photo/files
        >section�
        >
        >that would be great since my computer and yahoo dont get along at all for
        >some�
        >
        >reason.
        >
        >
        >
        >take care
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Blll
        >
        >
        >
        >here is the sketch......scanned at 200 dpi, grayscale
        >
        >
        >
        >if you print it at high quality mode (vs draft or regular quality) you can�
        >
        >see the graph paper lines/grids better...and you may have to print it out
        >as�
        >
        >color rather than grayscale for it to look better (for some strange�
        >reason...)
        >
        >
        >
        >in no way is this layout optimized, but it looks fairly functional as�
        >
        >is....at least I think so....but there are still ALOT of details to be�
        >
        >decided/worked out
        >
        >
        >
        >playing with a bunch of boxes, stacks of books, scrap lumber, and a� friend
        >
        >or two in the garage would probably go a long way towards optimizing the�
        >final
        >
        >layout...
        >
        >
        >
        >If you need a higher quality scan, let me know....I just did not want to�
        >
        >overload your internet connection
        >
        >
        >
        >take care
        >
        >
        >
        >Blll
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >A super quick description...
        >
        >
        >
        >The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this the important/unique?�
        >part
        >
        >
        >
        >It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat
        >
        >
        >
        >These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would be�
        >laying
        >
        >down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats in the rear�
        >
        >part of the boat
        >
        >
        >
        >The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the boat� at
        >a
        >
        >more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or take a� bit
        >
        >
        >
        >Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the wall of�
        >
        >the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wall that is
        >along�
        >
        >the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Its probably
        >
        >better� if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline, getting most
        >of the
        >
        >way to� the other side as it nears the bow.
        >
        >
        >
        >The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center, over the�
        >
        >cabin, as described above.� The other is on the other side of the boat and�
        >at
        >
        >the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way and touch�
        >at
        >
        >the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore and one aft,
        >or�
        >
        >one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard (if they
        >dont
        >
        > mind their legs in the same "well")
        >
        >
        >
        >Assuming the cabin is on the port side,� you still have some space� forward
        >
        >of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third person to sit�
        >on
        >
        >the starboard side facing aft.
        >
        >
        >
        >And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special seat,
        >you�
        >
        >could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin, with their
        >
        >head� out and above the roof seated near the center of the boat facing�
        >starboard.
        >
        >
        >
        >Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be the hull�
        >
        >shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to the hull would
        >have�
        >
        >to be redesigned.
        >
        >
        >
        >Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two small�
        >
        >children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short term shelter�
        >decently.
        >
        >Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, which is� good
        >since
        >
        >two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall, preventing� any
        >
        >inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!
        >
        >
        >
        >Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy to�
        >
        >provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat, without
        >having� to
        >
        >go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you something good to�
        >hang
        >
        >on to as you go to the bow.
        >
        >
        >
        >You could also apply this layout to the micro...
        >
        >
        >
        >��
        >
        >
        >
        >In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:34:00 PM Central Daylight Time,�
        >
        >graeme19121984@... writes:
        >
        >
        >
        >A sketch� would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
        >
        >my mind's� eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
        >
        >available. I don't� quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
        >
        >straight enough on the� starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
        >
        >flooded stability, but perhaps� it can all get away overboard quickly
        >
        >without� impediment.
        >
        >
        >
        >Graeme
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >There would be a foot well/bottom of the hull area about 4 feet long�� and
        >
        >2.5 feet wide on the starboard side which would be between the rear seat
        >on� the
        >
        >starboard side and the front/bow seat on the starboad side.
        >
        >
        >
        >If the space under the rear seat is not used, again your legs can stick�
        >
        >under it and a body might fit laying down in foot well. But what would
        >probably�
        >
        >make more sense are some boards/planels that you lay across the footwell,�
        >
        >thereby providing a flush raised deck that spans across the front starboard
        >seat�
        >
        >to the rear starboard seat.
        >
        >
        >
        >So the area under the aft starboard seat would probably be for� storage.
        >
        >
        >
        >Again, the sleeping length is 7 feet give or take. The bow area of� the
        >this
        >
        >sleeping deck would be the narrow end, so you would most� likely want to
        >sleep
        >
        >with you head at the aft end.
        >
        >
        >
        >Another advantage of this layout, is if the outside sleeper needs� shelter,
        >
        >"all" you have to do is run a tent/tarp from the cabin wall to the� hull
        >wall,
        >
        >so you are basically running a roof between 2 decently tall rigid�
        >structures,
        >
        >making the "tent" much more secure, and fairly� simple. And I would think
        >
        >having "real" walls on a tent would go a long way� towards reducing the
        >typical
        >
        >tent problem of water seeping in from the� sides.
        >
        >
        >
        >You might even be able to engineer thin solid panels that either store�
        >
        >on/under the cabin roof or on cabin floor or in/on the cabin wall that span
        >from�
        >
        >the cabin wall to the hull to make your outside sleeping area. You might
        >even
        >
        >be� able to make it so they are attached to the cabin with hinges say and
        >you
        >
        >just� flip them over/up and bang, you gottcha yourself another little
        >cabin.
        >
        >
        >
        >I think you could work it out so that a porta potty� would store under� the
        >
        >foward starboard seat. Not sure weather you would want it to stay under
        >the�
        >
        >seat and you just lift a lid to use it....or maybe it slides into the
        >cockpit�
        >
        >area to use....or maybe it slides out towards the port side to be used�
        >inside
        >
        >the cabin.
        >
        >
        >
        >This would certainly be an odd looking boat....and oldshoe is a bit odd�
        >
        >looking to start with..but I fell in love with that design instantly and I
        >still�
        >
        >think its my favorite.
        >
        >
        >
        >It does give up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original oldshoe�
        >
        >for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can still be "topside".
        >It�
        >
        >does have the advantage of having a cabin/area that you can securely put
        >one or
        >
        > two little kids in, or an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2
        >adults.
        >
        >You� could probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in
        >the
        >
        >boat if� you kept what you brought aboard to a bare minimum.
        >
        >
        >
        >I sketched this out only knowing oldshoe's length and beam and eyeballing�
        >
        >the width of the blunt bow, the width of the stern, and guessing at what
        >the�
        >
        >curve that defines the hull sides is like. I also guesstimated how much
        >space�
        >
        >the transom/motor well needs and the bow anchor well also. Its hard for me
        >to�
        >
        >guage how usefull/big/small the seats/footwells/cabin are, but I did run
        >
        >around� sitting on alot of things with a ruler and laying in closets and
        >under
        >
        >funiture� etc etc...
        >
        >
        >
        >Again, in some respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but it� looks
        >to
        >
        >me that it would be a great daysailer that at a minimum can sail 2� adults
        >
        >easily, with a cabin for at least one adult to duck into in bad� weather
        >(around
        >
        >here on the northern gulf coast, the weather is typically good� and fairly
        >
        >predictable except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont� last
        >long), and
        >
        >for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".
        >
        >
        >
        >Since if I were using it thats how it would be used I think it would� be a
        >
        >better match for me that oldshoe� original.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • BllFs6@aol.com
        In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time, coletta_j@msn.com writes: Bill, You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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          In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
          coletta_j@... writes:

          Bill,

          You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.

          Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing.

          1. I am concerned about side-to-side trim with the cabin on the side.
          2. Where would the mast be situated in the layout.
          3. From what I have read 3.5 feet of headroom is sufficient to sit upright
          in the cabin.
          4. The seat foot well arrangement makes for a checkerboard affair that my
          be hard to build.
          5. Can the two foot wells be doable with a full width thwart seat with a
          foot well on one side aft and the other side forward?
          6. I wonder how a Birdwatcher slotted cabin arrangement might work on an
          Old Shoe.

          Thank you for sharing your ideas with us.

          Frank



          Hi Frank...

          1. Yes, the cabin does present an asymetric port/starboard load thats built
          into the boat. But I dont think its as bad as it sounds. Anyway, you will note
          that I have two storage areas on the opposite side of the boat, plus the
          porta potty is on the opposite side as well. I figure you store heavy/dense
          stuff like tools, flares, metal parts, extra chain/anchor, batteries, water
          bottles etc etc in those storage areas. Or perhaps a cooler in one of them...or
          make on those areas a built in cooler even....I think that would go a long way
          towards balancing out the extra weight due to the cabin on one side.... the
          cabin aint that big IMHO..

          2. The masts would be were they were on orginal Oldshoe...pretty much at the
          very bow for the main and pretty much at the very stern for the mizzen?

          3. Like I said, I need to go in the garage with a bunch of carboard boxes
          and play in/on them. As far as a man with a female sailing companion goes...we
          need to tackle the Holy Grail of small craft cruising here....the ability to
          use the porta potty INSIDE the cabin....

          4. Yes, it would be a bit harder to build, but I dont think it requires any
          special skills and there are in my mind good reasons to build it that
          way...see 5 below..

          5. Do you mean you want the port seat to extend all the way across the boat
          and do away with the aft starboard seat? If so, I dont like it. With the
          checkerboard layout either way either person sits they already have a built in
          back rest of sorts. They are also always sorta facing each other "knee to
          knee"....and socially/conversation wise I like that alot more....and facing
          somewhat opposite directions has another benifit.....more likely to see either good
          or bad things outside the boat....

          Hey Dave, check out those cool dolphins over there!

          Uhhh, Bob....is that a torpedo headed our way?!

          A "bench" running across the boat doesnt allow these things....but hey, some
          folks may like it....

          If you reall wanna get weird, think about side by side seating.....where
          lets say you always sit on the port side looking starboard....and you only have
          a footwell on the starboard side of the boat...might allow for some
          advantages in a design....

          6. I kept playing with some kinda sloted cabin idea in my mind and I didnt
          like it for several reasons. A boat this short and narrow it just doesnt seem
          to work...if you have sleeping areas on both sides of the "isle", either the
          isle or the sleeping areas are pretty narrow...and probably both...If someone
          is laying down and part of the isle space is used as a sleeping area, if you
          gotta get to bow fast they are in the way,,,,if stuff is stored in isle its
          in the way as well. If the porta pottie is to be used in the isle and
          someone's laying down you get to use it right next to them and women folk aint gonna
          like that at all.

          If you think about it abstractly....My design has put all the isle space
          outside the cabin where it can do double duty as footwell/cockpit space...and is
          still convertable to sleeping square footage....also, you can just throw
          stuff in my cabin anywere and its not gonna be in the way if you going to the
          bow.

          Just some thoughts....take care

          Blll


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • BllFs6@aol.com
          In a message dated 6/1/2006 4:50:24 PM Central Daylight Time, BllFs6@aol.com writes: 6. I kept playing with some kinda sloted cabin idea in my mind and I
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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            In a message dated 6/1/2006 4:50:24 PM Central Daylight Time, BllFs6@...
            writes:

            6. I kept playing with some kinda sloted cabin idea in my mind and I didnt
            like it for several reasons. A boat this short and narrow it just doesnt
            seem
            to work...if you have sleeping areas on both sides of the "isle", either
            the
            isle or the sleeping areas are pretty narrow...and probably both...If
            someone
            is laying down and part of the isle space is used as a sleeping area, if
            you
            gotta get to bow fast they are in the way,,,,if stuff is stored in isle its
            in the way as well. If the porta pottie is to be used in the isle and
            someone's laying down you get to use it right next to them and women folk
            aint gonna
            like that at all.



            one thought just occured to me

            You have a cabin the front with no isle....just sleeping space...the cabin
            wall is basically flush with the hull on one side. However on the other side
            you have a narrow walking space, which could either be at the same level as the
            top of the hull, or it might be a narrow foot well lower than the top of the
            hull but still has space underneath it that is usable/accessable in the
            cabin below

            take care

            Blll


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • graeme19121984
            ... Bill s Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c= /Bill s Sketch
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
              > In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
              > coletta_j@... writes:
              > Bill,
              >> You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
              >
              > Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing...

              Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe

              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=

              /Bill's Sketch

              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
              I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
              re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
              larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)

              "It was just like the plans except that they'd (an Italian couple)
              made it longer and wider, but not higher, than the plans called for
              and made the bow pointed instead of the designed bow transom, and
              eliminated the keel (replacing it with a single leeboard), and
              rearranged the cockpit, and substituted a cat-schooner lug rig for
              the designed cat-yawl. Susanne commented mildly that it did not look
              much like an Old Shoe, but in fact it did not look bad. I have no
              problem with people who want to exercise creativity, especially
              when, as in this case, their design (not mine, wherever it started!)
              looks and sails well and made them happy... ...The design is an
              obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a removable one to
              use in appropriate weather. That would make one heavy-weather
              capable indeed..." (PCB&F)

              Which other Bolger boat attracts/invites so much interest in
              modification? Quite a few do, no doubt, but Old Shoe must be well in
              the lead. And as for variants actually built... again I'd bet this
              design is probably #1! (excepting Windsprint?). In the above Italian
              job: did they use moveable sandbag ballast - like Matt Leyden's EC
              winner, Enigma?

              Cheers
              Graeme
            • BllFs6@aol.com
              In a message dated 6/1/2006 9:09:48 PM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Bill s Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                In a message dated 6/1/2006 9:09:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
                graeme19121984@... writes:

                Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe

                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=

                /Bill's Sketch

                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
                I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
                re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
                larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)





                Thanks Graeme!

                Does my layout look ok? make any sense?

                Would you make some things larger and others smaller? and why?

                I'm sure the layout (besides the general concept) could use alot of
                tweaking/refining...

                Here is something I wrote to Frank about it:


                remember....in no way is this sketch detailed or optimized....its just shows
                the spatial relationship between the sitting areas, storage areas, foot
                wells, cabin etc etc...


                In reality you'd probably want to shift things around a bit from what the
                sketch shows....though "basically" the layout would likely stay the same.


                The biggest unknown....or the thing I have though about the least is the
                actual cabin....I know it would be of low height where your legs stick under the
                port seat and be higher than that elsewhere but other than that I havent any
                firm ideas....is it 4? foot high everywhere in the high part....or is
                different heights in different areas....or is sloped? or curved? or stepped?.....
                hatches? - number, size and location? access/hatchway design/layout ?....etc
                etc

                Also remember I have not real experience in
                sailing/cruising.....particularly in smaller boats.....

                My "big" contribution? here is the idea for the layout itself...fine details
                and refinement are probably best done by those with much more experience....

                The sketch just basically shows the "floorplan"

                take care

                Blll



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kenneth Grome
                Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it s an open boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                  Hi Bill,

                  The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                  http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                  By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                  Kenneth Grome
                  Bagacay Boatworks






                  On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:07:54 -0000, graeme19121984 wrote:
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                  >> In a message dated 6/1/2006 3:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time,
                  >> coletta_j@... writes:
                  >> Bill,
                  >>> You are definitely thinking out of the box with your design.
                  >>
                  >> Some initial thoughts after taking a quick look at your drawing...
                  >
                  > Bill's Old Shoe design is at: Bolger6/Photos/Oldshoe
                  >
                  > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb?c=
                  >
                  > /Bill's Sketch
                  >
                  > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=8 (Bill
                  > I think there is enough resolution here with the file automatically
                  > re-sized down by Yahoo, but if you would like it re-sized somewhat
                  > larger I could try it in a file somewheres. 729kb is big!)
                  >
                  > "It was just like the plans except that they'd (an Italian couple)
                  > made it longer and wider, but not higher, than the plans called for
                  > and made the bow pointed instead of the designed bow transom, and
                  > eliminated the keel (replacing it with a single leeboard), and
                  > rearranged the cockpit, and substituted a cat-schooner lug rig for
                  > the designed cat-yawl. Susanne commented mildly that it did not look
                  > much like an Old Shoe, but in fact it did not look bad. I have no
                  > problem with people who want to exercise creativity, especially
                  > when, as in this case, their design (not mine, wherever it started!)
                  > looks and sails well and made them happy... ...The design is an
                  > obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a removable one to
                  > use in appropriate weather. That would make one heavy-weather
                  > capable indeed..." (PCB&F)
                  >
                  > Which other Bolger boat attracts/invites so much interest in
                  > modification? Quite a few do, no doubt, but Old Shoe must be well in
                  > the lead. And as for variants actually built... again I'd bet this
                  > design is probably #1! (excepting Windsprint?). In the above Italian
                  > job: did they use moveable sandbag ballast - like Matt Leyden's EC
                  > winner, Enigma?
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  > Graeme
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                  > dead horses
                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                  > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • graeme19121984
                  ... Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all Common
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 1, 2006
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                    > Does my layout look ok? make any sense? Would you make some things
                    >larger and others smaller? and why? I'm sure the layout (besides
                    >the general concept) could use a lot of tweaking/refining...

                    Hi Bill,

                    your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
                    only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
                    Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
                    they are fashionable or character boats."

                    I'll try as best I can to address some of the implications of your
                    Old Shoe modification ideas. These are just my initial thoughts and
                    impressions. I'm not any kind of naval architect, rather, just as
                    you seem to be, along with many here, I often wonder how a design
                    might be altered a bit to accomodate some need better. And whether
                    it would work out!

                    You have really approached this design problem of having a small
                    sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
                    more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
                    Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
                    sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
                    consider.

                    Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
                    lines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
                    may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
                    may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
                    bodies. Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
                    plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
                    component will have to be made.

                    SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
                    hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
                    compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
                    float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
                    scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
                    top of the footwell will be higher than the external water. That is
                    200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could arise
                    without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
                    under you.In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
                    hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
                    save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
                    you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed. The storage
                    compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
                    seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
                    Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ). If they are dedicated to
                    flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
                    spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
                    in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
                    where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
                    for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
                    inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
                    sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
                    the offset footwell is flooded?

                    The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
                    difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
                    creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
                    arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
                    rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
                    mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
                    as: "

                    >IT DOES GIVE up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original
                    >oldshoe for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can
                    >still be "topside". It does have the advantage of having a
                    >cabin/area that you can securely put one or two little kids in, or
                    >an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults. You could
                    >probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
                    >boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare
                    >minimum... "

                    and

                    >"AGAIN, IN SOME respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but
                    >it looks to me that it would be a great daysailer that at a
                    >minimum can sail 2 adults easily, with a cabin for at least one
                    >adult to duck into in bad weather (around here on the northern
                    >gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly predictable
                    >except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
                    >for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".

                    " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
                    may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
                    claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
                    claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
                    and dry.


                    Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
                    markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
                    back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
                    may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
                    uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
                    concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


                    > but I did run around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and
                    laying in closets and under funiture etc etc...
                    LOL. In addition to you and me, I'm sure many a Bolgerado has done
                    this. Does Mr Bolger, do you think? He's had clients draw outlines
                    in their driveways etc. when elucidating their wants and needs.

                    To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
                    sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
                    SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
                    an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
                    (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
                    once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
                    function is very "Bolger"}).

                    Thanks for sharing this outa-the-box idea with us. Please keep up
                    development, and keep us informed how it goes.

                    Cheers
                    Graeme
                  • Peter Lenihan
                    ... I ve sent ... Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file! I applaud your
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi all
                      >
                      >
                      > This was started in another thread, so I have pasted the stuff
                      I've sent
                      > about it in the other thread together here.

                      > Peter and Graeme did you get the sketch file I sent you?


                      Hi B111

                      Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
                      Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

                      I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
                      I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
                      got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
                      too much into too small a package.

                      Having built and owned a MICRO, I am certainly no stranger to how
                      seductive these "shapes" can be nor to how they may equally inspire
                      dozens of custom modifications.Afterall, can you imagine an easier
                      shape to work with considering their slab-sidedness and all of that
                      appealing interior volume? :-)

                      Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
                      the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
                      boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
                      privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
                      use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
                      options:
                      a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
                      as per your sketches,or
                      b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
                      experienced based real needs.


                      Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
                      small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
                      that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
                      all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
                      with any big cabin structures :-)

                      In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
                      your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
                      original state shall not be too much hardship :-)


                      Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
                      for even offering up several different modifications to move the
                      effort forward some.

                      Nevertheless,I do look forward to following your project and hope
                      that you will get to experience the grand pleasures of
                      building,launching and using your very own magic carpet ride to
                      happy adventures!


                      Sincerely,

                      Peter Lenihan, just another chicken-shit builder who sticks to the
                      plans and only strays with great trepidation,all the while
                      fascinated by those who happily blaze their own trails( what guts
                      that must take!), from along the shores of the mighty
                      St.Lawrence..........
                    • BllFs6@aol.com
                      Hi Peter Thanks much for the thoughtful response. But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding! Hi B111 Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                        Hi Peter


                        Thanks much for the thoughtful response.

                        But now its fightn time! :0 Just kidding!


                        Hi B111

                        Yes I did recieve the (BIG!)sketch :-) and a big thank you to
                        Graeme for re-posting it to the OLD SHOE file!

                        Well, I guess its good that I didnt send the 14MB file that was scanned at
                        720dpi!




                        I applaud your enthusiasm to put a cabin on an OLD SHOE,but then
                        I saw those wonderful pictures of Joe's gorgeous rendition and it
                        got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe,you might be trying to get
                        too much into too small a package.
                        I tend to think that I am trying to use the given space in a different way
                        more so than trying add stuff given I am knowingly give up some of Oldshoe's
                        better virtue's.


                        Thus my considered response would be to perhaps build her as per
                        the plans and rig up a cockpit tent or, perhaps more correctly, a
                        boat tent to provide necessary shelter from the elements and/or
                        privacy for the head. After a fair seasons worth of actual
                        use,perhaps your needs will become more concrete and result in two
                        options:
                        a) Proceed with adding the required cabin/storage compartments etc
                        as per your sketches,or

                        If these were minor or relatively minor tweaks or something that could be
                        added onto the existing structure I would very much agree, but given that about
                        the only thing that would be original Oldshoe would be the sails, hull shell,
                        and keel, I am not sure how much that would help given how different the new
                        layout would be from the old.

                        I could use Oldshoe with some kinda tent or removable hardtop sorta thing
                        and I might find it to be perfectly acceptable.....BUT I would never know how
                        much better/worse different something like my proposal would be until I tried
                        it. So I guess I really need to build both versions!



                        b) Build a bigger and better boat that more closely meets your
                        experienced based real needs.

                        Perhaps, but I think I'd get a fair idea of whether Oldshoe was big enough
                        or not for what I wanted using either model version.

                        Also, I really like Oldshoe because it seems for me at least to be "Just big
                        enough". Go up to the Micro say and the mass is ALOT more, mast
                        significantly harder to manhandle, and the sails cost about 50 percent more IIRC.


                        Mind you, this is just my opinion and I am aware that with such a
                        small boat, the modifications you're contemplating will not be all
                        that costly to execute nor too disasterous to the boats humble over-
                        all performance.Just make sure you go as light-weight as possible
                        with any big cabin structures :-)

                        Yes, that is the good part. If I were to come across some gotcha in
                        construction or use of my version, it would be more of an "aww crud" rather than
                        "OHHH NOOO!"

                        Yes on cabin weight. Fortunately I have enough engineering type experience
                        to know how to make something strong in ways other than just using
                        thick/thicker plywood.



                        In the end, should your proposed modifications fail to attain
                        your expectations,removing the mods and returning her to her
                        original state shall not be too much hardship :-)

                        Well, if my version was a flop for me at least it would be a true
                        original...a true oddity among oddities...you think an Oldshoe is hard to find.....try
                        finding a Gnushoe! Heck, I could probably sell it to some mentally unbalanced
                        Bolgerista for a decent amount because they just gotta try it out :)




                        Sorry for not being totally able to encourage you any further nor
                        for even offering up several different modifications to move the
                        effort forward some.


                        No problem Peter.

                        Getting others people opinion always helps in one of two ways...either you
                        realize the error of your ways and are saved from yourself orrrrrr you get even
                        more entrenched in thought that your idea is the RIGHT idea, removing any
                        pesky linger doubts you should have obviously never had in the first place!

                        This isnt a project so much a alot of thinking and dreaming at this
                        stage....but maybe this thread will help out others with thier projects, ideas, and
                        thought processes.

                        Again thanks.

                        take care

                        Blll





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • BllFs6@aol.com
                        In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Hi Bill, your sketch is pretty much what I had from your
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                          In a message dated 6/2/2006 12:09:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
                          graeme19121984@... writes:

                          Hi Bill,

                          your sketch is pretty much what I had from your decription. Perhaps
                          only use would determine how much sense, but I think it may meet all
                          Common Sense Criteria including #5: "...They don't exist because
                          they are fashionable or character boats."


                          So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form follows
                          function then my design would be amazingly functional given its amazingly bad looks
                          :) Hey, in a millionaire marina when you have a tiny boat....any publicity
                          is good publicity! My other dream project is still to build John Welsfords?
                          Nano Shanty, making it look as much like a floating run down poor white trash
                          trialer with a few chickens on top and anchoring next a fancy marina for a
                          weekend. I'd also have to get up speed on how to properly chew and spit chewing
                          tobaccee for this to have maximum effect. And I think I could manage to
                          strap a mini keg and a tire rim on there somewhere as well.


                          You have really approached this design problem of having a small
                          sleeper cabin for one, day sailing accomodation and shelter for
                          more in a very original manner. Very intriguing. Great going.
                          Overall, I think it a good innovative solution for the type of
                          sailing you intend, but I do have some reservations you may wish to
                          consider.


                          Thank you very much for the compliment, though I had my inspirations. First,
                          obviously Bolgers trend of thinking outa the box and letting form follow
                          function, as well as the Oldshoe design itself. Also, all these designs on the
                          internet of micro cruisers gets one to thinking of what you need cabin wise if
                          all it is to be used for is sleeping. And other designers out there with
                          design features not found on your common commerical boats.




                          Your sketch is a little different in proportion to the Old Shoe
                          l ines, being relatively less beamy with a wider bow transom. This
                          may not matter much, but there isn't much space anyway and every bit
                          may count when it comes to actual measuring to accomodate real
                          bodies.


                          My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe. I drew it with a 5 foot
                          beam, a 1.5 foot bow, and a 3 foot wide transom. Does anybody have the real
                          measurements for the bow and transom? And perhaps a few more measurements across
                          the hull so I could get the plan view shape of the hull correct? Dont worry,
                          not trying to backwards engineer Old Shoe, when and if this project ever goes
                          forward I will be buying a set of Oldshoe plans.


                          Re-positioning a bulkhead or frame that is left in in your
                          plan will make for extra building work - a newly measured and extra
                          component will have to be made.

                          Yes, I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would be
                          different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I. We dont mind that at
                          all, but then again it could get ugly and we might never speak to ourselves
                          again.



                          SOLAS. The Old Shoe as designed has great reserves of safety. The
                          hold makes for a large bouyancy chamber, however, if it is
                          compromised, then the under seat foam filled chambers will still
                          float her very high. Most water will quickly run out the aft
                          scupper, and bucketing of the footwell only will be required. The
                          top of the footwell will be higher than the external water.


                          Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the hull is a
                          curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in the center in relation
                          to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor needs to be flat, and I would
                          prefer that the footwell be flat and above the external water as well because I
                          want it to seriously self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat
                          plywood panels, you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                          feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I dont recall
                          the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at least decent IIRC. Now
                          this DOES eat into cabin height and footwell depth, but how badly and at what
                          costs to other considerations I do not know.


                          That is 200 lbs of lead she has under her, and circumstances could
                          arise
                          without adequate flotation in which she would rapidly sink from
                          under you.

                          No doubt about that.....at the very least the design will have to float the
                          lead, any attached heavy stuff like the anchor, motor, battery, and a certain
                          amount of the structure itself above water. I think that is doable. Now HOW
                          high, dry, and stable this can be after after things have obviously gone bad
                          is the question. In my neck of the woods, with the geography, warm water,
                          sandy beachs, and the type of sailing I am likely to do, if you can keep a good
                          fraction of your body outa the water things probably wont turn out too bad.

                          In your variation I feel, like Bolger with the storage
                          hold, that you cannot rely on the bouyancy of the cabin volume to
                          save you - Murphy's law and all that, the cover may not be on when
                          you need it, or this is where the hull may be holed.

                          I agree with you there too. Any stuff stored in the cabin like the sleeping
                          bag, padding extra clothing etc etc would be stored in "waterproof"
                          containers/bags and secured if at all possible. This keeps stuff dry (duh), may
                          provide helpful floation, and at least doesnt ADD unwanted "sinking forces" if
                          large amounts of water end up in the cabin due to hulling or add weight should
                          alot of water enter, then leave the cabin, thereby leaving lots of soggy heavy
                          wet stuff behind.

                          The storage
                          compartments you show detract from flotation volume as may the under
                          seat utility areas (PCB writes a bit on all this when discussing the
                          Japanese Beachcruiser in BWAOM ).


                          True. I wound do my best to make under the seat storage relatively water
                          tight. I would also try to insure that they are least unlikely to accidently
                          open up. Then also store everything in containers (say tupperware of different
                          sizes and shapes). And also even if not much is stored in there, the storage
                          area is still filled with empty watertight containers.That way if storage
                          area itself is not watertight for prolonged emmersion, you are still getting a
                          decent fraction of the bouyancy you would get if the whole thing was just
                          filled with foam.

                          If they are dedicated to
                          flotation, then, in addition to the question of the quantity and
                          spatial relationship needed to ensure floating high enough upright
                          in level trim (in all circumstances) there arises a new problem of
                          where now to store things if not here? If the small cabin is used
                          for storage you may be back to square one, but if a bit of
                          inconvenience can be tolerated then this may suffice. I'm still not
                          sure if she may float with dangerously too much heel, even if only
                          the offset footwell is flooded?

                          The above safety considerations may be able to be met. It may be
                          difficult, I don't know enough to say. If you keep on with such a
                          creative approach I bet you could arrive at a satisfactory
                          arrangement. However, if she is not to be taken far offshore, into
                          rough water, or away from ready help then the SOLAS concerns are
                          mostly irrelevent, and then for the type of use you mentioned such
                          as....


                          Yes, at some point I'd have to stop hand waving and do some serious
                          calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously flooded under
                          different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then again it certainly isnt
                          something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it and hope for the best either.




                          " the versatility and utility of this layout may well amaze. Some
                          may complain they couldn't sleep in such a tight cabin owing to
                          claustrophobia, but I don't think all that many people get
                          claustrophobia. Many like a feeling of "snug". Especially if warm
                          and dry.


                          Well, if you are claustrophobic you are outa luck for sure. Not a problem
                          for me. The main measure for me is can I turn over, lay on my side, lay in a
                          fetal position without knee's hitting the wall and hopefully at least mostly
                          sit up somewhere? From my "floor plan" and some laying in closets recently, its
                          looks like the answer is a conditional yes.

                          I'd say the that my design still might not be bad for someone who doesnt
                          like cramped spaces. As drawn you still have as much if not more "floorspace"
                          outside the cabin as inside. That person just has to set up a tent to sleep in.
                          So the boat can still sleep 2, just that its gotta be a snug as a bug in a
                          rug type and a wide open spaces type. It just cant accomodate 2 wide open
                          spaces types. And if sailed by a wide open spaces type the cabin still provides a
                          few advantages. Quick place to duck in short term for say the pop up
                          thunderstorm or a quick bit of shade, or a place to warm up/change clothes if its
                          cold/windy/wet....The cabin is also a better storage space for bulky though
                          preferably not too heavy stuff. And finally, should things get really bad, its a
                          much better place to batten down the hatches and hold on for dear life than
                          in an open cockpit or tent!


                          Will there be comfortable seating on the aft seats? The bottom rises
                          markedly owing to its large curvature and the hull is not very deep
                          back aft. If the sides are still to provide a seatback then an adult
                          may have to sit with their legs tucked up? This might be
                          uncomfortable after a lengthy period at the helm. This is my main
                          concern about the aft-cockpit, decked, "Danidoo" type.


                          Yes, that would certainly need some looking into. You might be able to put
                          in some railing (since you would need very little) instead of raising the hull
                          sides if it turned out you had to raise the seat hieght to maintain decent
                          footwell depth and still wanted that not gonna fall backwards outa the boat
                          feeling. But I "think" you could give up a bit on footwell depth and a bit on
                          backrest height and still have a workable solution...time for more boxes,
                          rulers, and sketches me thinks....



                          To summarise at this point: your idea seems to have the advantages
                          sought from a fixed structure (however a tent is also versatile);
                          SOLAS is a concern ( but may be met, or irrelevant); the effects of
                          an apprehended athwartships assymetry may amount to advantage
                          (concerns may not be real, or may be addressed {aircraft carriers
                          once looked lob-sided and, many commercial craft do, form following
                          function very "Bolger"}).


                          Fair synopsis there. Don't get me wrong here. I dont think this is better
                          than Oldshoe in every respect. You do give up alot. Simplity of
                          design/construction. Costs. Proven track record. Probably some load carrying ability.
                          Probably some flooded stability. The ability to easily carry 4 or more folks. And
                          probably some other stuff that isnt obvious either at the moment or until you
                          try both versions out.

                          But I do think it you mostly gonna camp/cruise by your self or just daysail
                          with 3 total adults (and maybe one little kid) or 2 adults and and 2 possibly
                          3 little kids that the cabin does offer advantages that could be worth the
                          loss of some of the attributes of the orginal Oldshoe.




                          Again, thanks for the comments and input!

                          I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel idea.

                          I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen young man....form
                          may follow function but one must learn to control oneself" :)

                          I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a Micro.....might be able to get a
                          dedicated head and a nice sized one person cabin that way and still have a fair
                          bit of uptop space.....

                          A dedicated head.....THATS hows ya gets the women folk when it comes to
                          sailing! Well, that and sailing with a cute little dog with a doggy life jacket
                          on.

                          take care all

                          Blll


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • BllFs6@aol.com
                          In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time, bagacayboatworks@gmail.com writes: Hi Bill, The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                            In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                            bagacayboatworks@... writes:

                            Hi Bill,

                            The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
                            boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                            without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
                            the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
                            really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                            http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                            By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
                            than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
                            boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                            Kenneth Grome
                            Bagacay Boatworks



                            Hi Kenneth....

                            Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
                            However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
                            you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
                            advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
                            so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
                            disadvantages.

                            thanks for the input!

                            take care

                            Blll


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John and Kathy Trussell
                            An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB s Super Mouse found in BWAOM. John T ... From: BllFs6@aol.com To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                              An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse found in BWAOM.

                              John T
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: BllFs6@...
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:28 AM
                              Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Oldshoe with cabin - Gnushoe



                              In a message dated 6/1/2006 11:51:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
                              bagacayboatworks@... writes:

                              Hi Bill,

                              The attraction of OldShoe (for me anyways) is the fact that it's an open
                              boat with high sides, so people can move around in it with relative ease, yet
                              without much risk of "falling overboard". If I were to build one for myself,
                              the most I would want in a cabin is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is
                              really no more than a locker for secure/dry storage:

                              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                              By the way, using a custom canvas tent on a boat like OldShoe may be better
                              than anyone's idea of putting a cabin on it. A tent lets you have an open
                              boat when you want one, and a protected shelter at other times.

                              Kenneth Grome
                              Bagacay Boatworks



                              Hi Kenneth....

                              Those are valid points I will readily concede under certain conditions.
                              However, if you read my replies to Graeme and Peter about these same points,
                              you'll see that I feel there are conditions under which the fixed cabin offers
                              advantages (though not without its costs either). Of course I could be all wet
                              so to speak and any percieved advantages are overwhelmed by real
                              disadvantages.

                              thanks for the input!

                              take care

                              Blll


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            • Nels
                              ... found in BWAOM. ... Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe. The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                                <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > An approach which has fairly obvious parallels is PCB's Super Mouse
                                found in BWAOM.
                                >

                                Bolger had this to say in a recent MAIB article regarding Oldshoe.

                                "The design is an obvious candidate for a Birdwatcher top, perhaps a
                                removeable one to use in appropriate weather. That would make one
                                heavy-weather capable indeed, they're stiff as designed, with the
                                200lb of outside ballast giving a reassuring range of stability."

                                Nels
                              • graeme19121984
                                ... Kenneth, This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of flooding
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >If I were to build one for myself, the most I would want in a cabin
                                  >is the cuddy shown in this photo, which is really no more than a
                                  >locker for secure/dry storage:
                                  >
                                  > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/view/efcb?b=6

                                  Kenneth,

                                  This cuddy may be large enough for children to shelter in from a
                                  downpour, and on calmer days when there would be little danger of
                                  flooding through the hatchway they might like to stay in there :-)

                                  Alternativeley, if the hatch acccess were not through the bulkhead
                                  as pictured, but was a hatch in the raised deck shown, then there
                                  might be just sufficient privacy for porta-potti use within. I guess
                                  the hatch coaming might be chest high when sitting within. PCB has
                                  drawn a few heads in the bow with the occupiers head and shoulders
                                  protruding above deck. It would require a bit of agility in stepping
                                  from the cockpit seat, up, over, and down into the hatch, but the
                                  concession to some privacy might remove a bigger obstacle to some
                                  peoples' crewing.

                                  Cheers
                                  Graeme
                                • graeme19121984
                                  ... No not really. I don t know that it would look bad. Just that it does t have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a boat is supposed to look
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                                    >, but I think it may meet all Common Sense Criteria including
                                    >#5: "...They don't exist because they are fashionable or
                                    >character boats."
                                    >
                                    > So what you are trying to say diplomatically is that if form
                                    >follows function then my design would be amazingly functional given
                                    >its amazingly bad looks :)

                                    No not really. I don't know that it would look bad. Just that it
                                    does't have to slavishly follow conventional dictates about how a
                                    boat is supposed to look to be a good boat.



                                    > My sketch is LESS? beamy than the real Oldshoe.

                                    My mistake. I eyeballed it again - and counted grid squares ;-) and
                                    your sketch seems ok .


                                    >I realize pretty much everything interior to the hull shell would
                                    >be different and have to be engineered by me, myself and I.

                                    Some of those things might be serving more than one function. PCB
                                    can be quite suttle in this. PCB assigns a number to a design after
                                    the offsets are calculated. Old Shoe is #449. PCB&F would probably
                                    supply the offsets so you could completely change the internals and
                                    keep exactly the same hull form, however the replacement internals
                                    would need to satisfy the structural and other demands. I'm sure you
                                    know more about that engineering stuff than I - just thought I'd
                                    better mention it though :)

                                    > SOLAS...
                                    >Imagine looking at Oldshoe from a side profile. The bottom of the
                                    >hull is a curved surface that "dips" down about 6 inches IIRC in
                                    >the center in relation to the bow and stern. Now the cabin floor
                                    >needs to be flat, and I would prefer that the footwell be flat and
                                    >above the external water as well because I want it to seriously
                                    >self draining. If you use foam topped by thin flat plywood panels,
                                    >you've put a fair thickness of foam over a large number of square
                                    >feet. I did a back of the envelope calc awhile back and though I
                                    >dont recall the amount of bouyancy you get out of it, it was at
                                    >least decent IIRC. Now this DOES eat into cabin height and
                                    >footwell depth, but how badly and at what costs to other
                                    >considerations I do not know.

                                    There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                                    but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                                    righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                                    something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                                    may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                                    brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                                    superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                                    contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                                    flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                                    shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                                    self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                                    position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                                    some effort.

                                    Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                                    can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                                    doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                                    then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                                    floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                                    orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                                    be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                                    put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                                    things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.

                                    >calculations as to what/when/where/ how stable she is seriously
                                    >flooded under different scenarios. I do think its doable, but then
                                    >again it certainly isnt something you'd wanna just eyeball, wing it
                                    >and hope for the best either.
                                    >...time for more boxes, rulers, and sketches me thinks....

                                    It's doable. Just gotta get out all the wrinkles.

                                    > I am suprised that an assymetric cabin seems to be a fairly novel
                                    >idea. I can see myself being admonished by Bolger now. "Listen
                                    >young man....form may follow function but one must learn to
                                    >control oneself" :) I am kinda itchy to try the layout on a
                                    >Micro.....might be able to get a...

                                    I'm sure Mr Bolger would have no trouble with assymetry per se.
                                    You'd know you were going too far here though, if he mentioned
                                    zealotry. ;-)

                                    Cheers
                                    Graeme
                                  • BllFs6@aol.com
                                    Hi Graeme Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                      Hi Graeme


                                      Yeah, this boyancy and stability thing can certainly get more complex the
                                      longer one things about it no doubt. Certainly needs alot of work for sure.


                                      Fortunately, when push comes to shove, the WAY I would use such a beast, I
                                      would be pretty safe as long as the darn thing stayed together and
                                      floated.....upright but low in the water or on its side or even up side down....any of
                                      those would be tolerable for me....so my requirements are not as demanding as
                                      some...

                                      Now, if your cruising is more "serious" then yeah, get the stability and
                                      orientation issues worked out much better....

                                      Something did occur to me today thinking about such things.....if your cabin
                                      is fairly assymetric and depending on how much air it holds or how intact it
                                      is or how much foam you have in the walls/ceiling of the cabin and where it
                                      is and how much flotation
                                      you have on the "non-cabin" side, the assymetric cabin may offer another
                                      advantage. It may ONLY be stable upright....or in other words you turn it upside
                                      down and the cabin flotation flips it upright again...and even if it doesn't,
                                      it may provide enough "help" to make using your own body weight to "un
                                      turtle" the beast easier ....

                                      So, such a cabin may make a rollover just that....always a rollover and
                                      never a turtle situation....of course the cabin would probably make a rollover
                                      more probable.....but if it meant it could never turtle......thats a trade off
                                      I'd happily live with.


                                      take care


                                      Blll


                                      In a message dated 6/2/2006 11:03:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                      graeme19121984@... writes:

                                      There is probably a lot of positive bouyancy here if you do this,
                                      but carefully calculate your new centres of gravity and bouyancy,
                                      righting arms and so on for various circumstances. The foam weighs
                                      something, obviously, and so the hull COG has been lowered, which
                                      may add to performance when upright, but the capsised COB has been
                                      brought closer to the floor too. In fact they may be almost
                                      superimposed. Worse, with the weight of the other stuff in the boat
                                      contributing, on her beam ends the COG may actually be above the
                                      flooded COB ( relative to the floor of course). If masts are
                                      shipped, their bouyancy may prevent inversion, but the boat may not
                                      self right. If it turns turtle it may be in the most stable
                                      position :( or, depending on sea state, it may only be rescued with
                                      some effort.

                                      Calculation may show it's alright, but off the top of my head I
                                      can't think of anywhere Bolger shows flotation right down low. If it
                                      doesn't go from bilge to deck like in the quarters or bows perhaps,
                                      then it is shown chocked up against the deck underside right off the
                                      floor so when flooded the boat ought to sit stable in the correct
                                      orientation without manhandling to get it that way. It wont easily
                                      be tipped over by wave action before it is bailed out. I thought he
                                      put the foam off the floor to discourage rot and to allow space for
                                      things like oars or legs to be poked under there. Suttle.






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