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Anyone Designed/Built A Stretched "Fast Motorsailer"

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  • waldofo
    Hi Folks Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada and the USA.
    Message 1 of 17 , May 28 9:19 AM
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      Hi Folks

      Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
      year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada and
      the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
      Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
    • Ryan Cermak
      I haven t done that yet but I do have the plans for the FMS and like you, I want to stretch her to about 25 . I m hoping to start later this year toward the
      Message 2 of 17 , May 30 3:22 AM
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        I haven't done that yet but I do have the plans for the FMS and like
        you, I want to stretch her to about 25'. I'm hoping to start later
        this year toward the end of the huricane season.

        Ryan

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Folks
        >
        > Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
        > year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
        and
        > the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
        > Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
        >
      • pvanderwaart
        I believe that in his book The Folding Schooner, Bolger printed the plans of a boat aboaut 26-28 feet long which is a fast motorsailor from before the
        Message 3 of 17 , May 30 5:45 AM
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          I believe that in his book The Folding Schooner, Bolger printed the
          plans of a boat aboaut 26-28 feet long which is a fast motorsailor
          from before the invention of the term. She's a semi-displacement
          outboard powerboat with a sailing rig. Strip construction.

          I would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
          months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
          very light.

          Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
          displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.

          Peter


          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Cermak" <RWCermak@...> wrote:
          >
          > I haven't done that yet but I do have the plans for the FMS and like
          > you, I want to stretch her to about 25'. I'm hoping to start later
          > this year toward the end of the huricane season.
          >
          > Ryan
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Folks
          > >
          > > Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
          > > year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
          > and
          > > the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
          > > Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
          > >
          >
        • BllFs6@aol.com
          In a message dated 5/30/2006 7:46:25 AM Central Daylight Time, pvanderwaart@yahoo.com writes: would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for
          Message 4 of 17 , May 30 6:27 AM
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            In a message dated 5/30/2006 7:46:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
            pvanderwaart@... writes:

            would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
            months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
            very light.

            Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
            displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.

            Peter



            Hi Peter..

            Not "attacking" you personally, but I think IMHO many folks have the wrong
            idea when it comes to cruising.

            I 've never actually cruised in a boat before, but I have seen this
            mentality in another area and that is the motorhome crowd (land based cruising).

            and it is this....

            Many folks in the cruising (and motorhome) community have this mindset that
            their cruising mobile is a small house.

            So what this means usually is that people try to cram a house worths of
            stuff in a small space, which IMHO opinion just leads to too much crap in to
            small a space. Heck, I think most people have too much stuff in their HOUSES.

            I think if you are able to paradigm shift (and remember not to double
            clutch!) things might work out better...

            Try to think of your boat or motorhome as a nice "large" sturdy tent that
            you dont have move yourself and it carries all your CAMPING gear for you.

            Of course dont skimp on safety stuff and the true essentials, but I think if
            you work the problem from this end you'll end up with less stuff, more space
            and be happier...

            I used to do alot of car camping...ie camping where the tent was usually
            next to or very short distance from the car...and invariably I started bringing
            more and more stuff till it would all barely fit, I couldnt find anything
            without taking out everything, and then at the end it never packed back in as
            well as when I had started.

            I finally learned to really pare down to the essentials and my stress levels
            went way down, the workload really decreased, and the enjoyment went up
            signifcantly.

            Again, not aimed at you personally, its just you comments reminded me of
            this train of thought I've had for years.

            And while I'm at it....another pet peeve of sorts...

            Take any "small" sailboat (ie about 40 feet or less).

            The vast majority of the designs seem to take this approach:

            Lets design this thing to sleep the maximum number of people possible (once
            a tiny head and galley are put in).

            And this often seem to lead to a few "secondary" sleeping spaces that are
            marginal at best and these secondary sleeping spaces eat into valuable space
            that could be used in the primary sleeping space and/or galley/head or just a
            more open cabin.

            Or in other words the designs have the feature of doing everything mediocre
            rather than one thing GOOD.

            I'd kinda like to see a design that say sleeps 2 WELL, daysails 4/5 nicely
            rather than a design that can sleep 4 poorly when it may well be that 2 are all
            that usually sleep in it...

            I think you get my drift....

            take care

            Blll


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kenneth Grome
            I was just reading about Sea Bird 86 in BWAOM today, and I was impressed by Bolger s description of this boat, which he called a true motorsailer . Hull
            Message 5 of 17 , May 30 8:27 AM
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              I was just reading about Sea Bird '86 in BWAOM today, and I was impressed by Bolger's description of this boat, which he called a "true motorsailer". Hull speed may not satisfy you, but if it does you may want to review Bolger's write-up about Sea Bird '86 because he sure makes it sound like a great boat to me.

              Kenneth Grome
              Bagacay Boatworks






              On Tue, 30 May 2006 12:45:13 -0000, pvanderwaart wrote:
              > I believe that in his book The Folding Schooner, Bolger printed the
              > plans of a boat aboaut 26-28 feet long which is a fast motorsailor
              > from before the invention of the term. She's a semi-displacement
              > outboard powerboat with a sailing rig. Strip construction.
              >
              > I would have thought that the gear necessary to live aboard for six
              > months would make a boat too heavy to be fast, but perhaps you travel
              > very light.
              >
              > Personally, I would go with the 30' Cargo Motorsailer, but she's a
              > displacement boat and limited to about 6 knts.
              >
              > Peter
              >
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Cermak" <RWCermak@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> I haven't done that yet but I do have the plans for the FMS and like
              >> you, I want to stretch her to about 25'. I'm hoping to start later
              >> this year toward the end of the huricane season.
              >>
              >> Ryan
              >>
              >> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> Hi Folks
              >>>
              >>> Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
              >>> year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
              >> and
              >>> the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
              >>> Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
              >>>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Bolger rules!!!
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              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
              > Fax: (978) 282-1349
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              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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              >
              >
            • pvanderwaart
              Not to worry, I never take anything personally. Well, hardly ever. I agree with your logic, but I think that the discipline required to live with tent-camping
              Message 6 of 17 , May 30 8:56 AM
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                Not to worry, I never take anything personally. Well, hardly ever.

                I agree with your logic, but I think that the discipline required to
                live with tent-camping limitations for as long as six mongths is rare.
                People with boats much larger than you are suggesting live by a 'zero
                tolerance' policy for possessions.

                Several persons/couples have reported living a Jesse Cooper for
                months/years. There are some reasons why this works that I find
                instructive. The sleeping area is 100% adequate, and 100% separate
                from the kitchen/DR/LR area. I think this is a key, and will only be
                found in a special purpose boat in this size range. There is also
                headroom in a small area.

                Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
                cruising speed under power and ability under sail...

                Peter

                > Hi Peter..
                >
                > Not "attacking" you personally, but I think IMHO many folks have the
                wrong
                > idea when it comes to cruising.
                >
                > I 've never actually cruised in a boat before, but I have seen this
                > mentality in another area and that is the motorhome crowd (land
                based cruising).
                >
                > and it is this....
                >
                > Many folks in the cruising (and motorhome) community have this
                mindset that
                > their cruising mobile is a small house.
                >
                > So what this means usually is that people try to cram a house worths
                of
                > stuff in a small space, which IMHO opinion just leads to too much
                crap in to
                > small a space. Heck, I think most people have too much stuff in
                their HOUSES.
                >
                > I think if you are able to paradigm shift (and remember not to double
                > clutch!) things might work out better...
                >
                > Try to think of your boat or motorhome as a nice "large" sturdy tent
                that
                > you dont have move yourself and it carries all your CAMPING gear for
                you.
                >
                > Of course dont skimp on safety stuff and the true essentials, but I
                think if
                > you work the problem from this end you'll end up with less stuff,
                more space
                > and be happier...
                >
                > I used to do alot of car camping...ie camping where the tent was
                usually
                > next to or very short distance from the car...and invariably I
                started bringing
                > more and more stuff till it would all barely fit, I couldnt find
                anything
                > without taking out everything, and then at the end it never packed
                back in as
                > well as when I had started.
                >
                > I finally learned to really pare down to the essentials and my
                stress levels
                > went way down, the workload really decreased, and the enjoyment went
                up
                > signifcantly.
                >
                > Again, not aimed at you personally, its just you comments reminded
                me of
                > this train of thought I've had for years.
                >
                > And while I'm at it....another pet peeve of sorts...
                >
                > Take any "small" sailboat (ie about 40 feet or less).
                >
                > The vast majority of the designs seem to take this approach:
                >
                > Lets design this thing to sleep the maximum number of people
                possible (once
                > a tiny head and galley are put in).
                >
                > And this often seem to lead to a few "secondary" sleeping spaces
                that are
                > marginal at best and these secondary sleeping spaces eat into
                valuable space
                > that could be used in the primary sleeping space and/or galley/head
                or just a
                > more open cabin.
                >
                > Or in other words the designs have the feature of doing everything
                mediocre
                > rather than one thing GOOD.
                >
                > I'd kinda like to see a design that say sleeps 2 WELL, daysails 4/5
                nicely
                > rather than a design that can sleep 4 poorly when it may well be
                that 2 are all
                > that usually sleep in it...
                >
                > I think you get my drift....
                >
                > take care
                >
                > Blll
                >
              • BllFs6@aol.com
                In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:01:39 AM Central Daylight Time, pvanderwaart@yahoo.com writes: Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as
                Message 7 of 17 , May 30 9:13 AM
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                  In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:01:39 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  pvanderwaart@... writes:

                  Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
                  cruising speed under power and ability under sail...

                  Peter



                  Well

                  As far as that I have no real practical experience so my input would be
                  rather worthless....plus I am usually an odd duck, so even if I had practical
                  experience most folks wouldnt like my take at it! :)

                  I think you mighta taken my "camping" analogy a bit too serious.....not
                  saying you actually cruise as if you are camping long term....you just approach
                  it mentally from a hiking/camping perspective...or in other words not "man
                  this a cramped house" but "boy is a nice big sturdy comfy tent!"

                  ie going from small to medium as opposed to the mobile house mentality where
                  you go from big to medium...

                  As an aside.....there was a thread about a modified oldshoe.....I had an
                  outa the box idea for a one person sleepable permanent cabin on it, and the boat
                  could still fit easily2, probably 3, and maybe 4 people "uptop" easily for
                  daysailing....and two could still sleep on it (only one in cabin), ..anyone
                  like to hear a bit more?

                  take care

                  Blll




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Waldo F. Odonahue
                  Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as cruising speed under power and ability under sail... The plan is to wander up and
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 30 12:14 PM
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                    "Perhaps you could outline what you see as your needs/desires as far as
                    cruising speed under power and ability under sail..."

                    The plan is to wander up and down the coast (very close to the coast!) of Vancouver Island, B.C., Washington, Oregon, California and the Baja. Not having to constantly pay out ever-rising docking fees would be nice. I will be living solo with occassional week long visits from kids. I will only need to be very, very fast to get away from adverse weather or to arrive on time for a hot date ;)

                    I am claustrophobic - need cabin with windows - not interested in sleeping in coffin like conditions.

                    I need:
                    a) fixed double size memory foam bed with good windows (drop down bed or slide out into double bed?).
                    b) combination office/video editing/dinette/lounging area (dinette seats could convert into guest sleeping).
                    c) the captains quarters :) with radar and iPod.
                    d) usable galley, head and shower.
                    e) covered back portch ;)
                    f) space to store Vespa?

                    The boat doesn't have to look nautical - if a "Super Watervan" (32 foot X 10 feet X10 feet) could cope with the coastal ocean conditions - that would be fine for me ;) "The Streak". Actually started to think about that - 11 (2 foot high) engineered floor trusses running longitudinally the length of the "boat"........








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • graeme19121984
                    ... Yes, please tell. Would it be like the Squeak cabin? Graeme
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 30 7:03 PM
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                      > As an aside.....there was a thread about a modified oldshoe.....I
                      >had an outa the box idea for a one person sleepable permanent cabin
                      >on it, and the boat could still fit easily2, probably 3, and maybe 4
                      >people "uptop" easily for daysailing....and two could still sleep on
                      >it (only one in cabin),
                      >>
                      >>
                      >..anyone like to hear a bit more?

                      Yes, please tell.
                      Would it be like the "Squeak" cabin?
                      Graeme
                    • BllFs6@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/30/2006 9:04:48 PM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: Yes, please tell. Would it be like the Squeak cabin?
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 30 8:09 PM
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                        In a message dated 5/30/2006 9:04:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
                        graeme19121984@... writes:

                        Yes, please tell.
                        Would it be like the "Squeak" cabin?
                        Graeme



                        Don't know about that....

                        A super quick description...

                        The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this the important/unique? part

                        It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat

                        These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would be laying
                        down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats in the rear
                        part of the boat

                        The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the boat at a
                        more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or take a bit

                        Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the wall of
                        the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wall that is along
                        the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Its probably
                        better if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline, getting most of the
                        way to the other side as it nears the bow.

                        The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center, over the
                        cabin, as described above. The other is on the other side of the boat and at
                        the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way and touch at
                        the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore and one aft, or
                        one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard (if they dont
                        mind their legs in the same "well")

                        Assuming the cabin is on the port side, you still have some space forward
                        of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third person to sit on
                        the starboard side facing aft.

                        And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special seat, you
                        could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin, with their
                        head out and above the roof seated near the center of the boat facing starboard.

                        Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be the hull
                        shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to the hull would have
                        to be redesigned.

                        Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two small
                        children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short term shelter decently.
                        Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, which is good since
                        two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall, preventing any
                        inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!

                        Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy to
                        provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat, without having to
                        go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you something good to hang
                        on to as you go to the bow.

                        Did that make any sense or do I need to send in a sketch?

                        You could also apply this layout to the micro...

                        take care

                        Blll


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Peter Lenihan
                        ... important/unique? part ... be laying ... the rear ... boat at a ... a bit ... wall of ... that is along ... probably ... getting most of the ... over
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 30 8:52 PM
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                          > The cabin only takes up one side of the boat..this the
                          important/unique? part
                          >
                          > It starts about 2 foot aft of the middle of the boat
                          >
                          > These first 2 feet are low....its where the end of your legs would
                          be laying
                          > down in the cabin...the roof here forms one the the two seats in
                          the rear
                          > part of the boat
                          >
                          > The cabin goes roughly another 5 feet foward of the middle of the
                          boat at a
                          > more reasonable height...for a total length of 7 feet give or take
                          a bit
                          >
                          > Note that while the cabin only takes up one side of the boat, the
                          wall of
                          > the cabin near the centerline of the boat (as opposed to the wall
                          that is along
                          > the outer hull of the boat) need not follow the centerline. Its
                          probably
                          > better if it is angled and actually crosses the centerline,
                          getting most of the
                          > way to the other side as it nears the bow.
                          >
                          > The back/aft half of the boat has two seats. The one near center,
                          over the
                          > cabin, as described above. The other is on the other side of the
                          boat and at
                          > the stern. Think of two squares that are oriented the same way and
                          touch at
                          > the corners. Two people could easily sit with one facing fore and
                          one aft, or
                          > one port and one starboard or even one forward and one starboard
                          (if they dont
                          > mind their legs in the same "well")
                          >
                          > Assuming the cabin is on the port side, you still have some
                          space forward
                          > of the center of the boat outside of the cabin for a third person
                          to sit on
                          > the starboard side facing aft.
                          >
                          > And if you make the hatchway into the cabin right, with a special
                          seat, you
                          > could probably have a fourth person sorta sitting in the cabin,
                          with their
                          > head out and above the roof seated near the center of the boat
                          facing starboard.
                          >
                          > Now of course the only thing you would retain of oldshoe would be
                          the hull
                          > shape/size, keel, and sail design...everything internal to the
                          hull would have
                          > to be redesigned.
                          >
                          > Note that while the cabin could only sleep one (or maybe two
                          small
                          > children), two adults could probably sit up in it for short term
                          shelter decently.
                          > Also there is still room outside the cabin for one to sleep, which
                          is good since
                          > two men could camp out, safely separated by a cabin wall,
                          preventing any
                          > inadvertant nocturnal cuddling!
                          >
                          > Another feature is even if you make the cabin high, its still easy
                          to
                          > provide for access to the bow on the starboard side of the boat,
                          without having to
                          > go thru the cabin. The cabin wall actually gives you something
                          good to hang
                          > on to as you go to the bow.
                          >
                          > Did that make any sense or do I need to send in a sketch?



                          Bill,

                          Not to be too blunt about it but,yes,your description would
                          certainly be better served with at least a good sketch or two for
                          all of us visual types out there :-)

                          Thanks,

                          Peter Lenihan
                        • Peter Lenihan
                          ... coast!) of Vancouver Island, B.C., Washington, Oregon, California and the Baja. Not having to constantly pay out ever-rising docking fees would be nice. I
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 30 8:56 PM
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                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Waldo F. Odonahue" <waldofo@...>
                            wrote:
                            > The plan is to wander up and down the coast (very close to the
                            coast!) of Vancouver Island, B.C., Washington, Oregon, California
                            and the Baja. Not having to constantly pay out ever-rising docking
                            fees would be nice. I will be living solo with occassional week long
                            visits from kids. I will only need to be very, very fast to get away
                            from adverse weather or to arrive on time for a hot date ;)
                            >
                            > I am claustrophobic - need cabin with windows - not interested in
                            sleeping in coffin like conditions.
                            >
                            > I need:
                            > a) fixed double size memory foam bed with good windows (drop down
                            bed or slide out into double bed?).
                            > b) combination office/video editing/dinette/lounging area (dinette
                            seats could convert into guest sleeping).
                            > c) the captains quarters :) with radar and iPod.
                            > d) usable galley, head and shower.
                            > e) covered back portch ;)
                            > f) space to store Vespa?



                            Hi,

                            Save the expense of rigging and sail(s) and build a Windermere :-)

                            Just trying to be helpful....


                            Sincerely,

                            Peter "Windermere" Lenihan, from along the shores of the mighty
                            St.Lawrence...........
                          • graeme19121984
                            ... A sketch would be good ;) just to check I ve got your layout right in my mind s eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space available. I don t
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 30 9:32 PM
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                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BllFs6@... wrote:
                              > Did that make any sense or do I need to send in a sketch?
                              >

                              A sketch would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
                              my mind's eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
                              available. I don't quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
                              straight enough on the starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
                              flooded stability, but perhaps it can all get away overboard quickly
                              without impediment.

                              Graeme
                            • Don Schultz
                              The original FMS is pictured in Boats with an Open Mind . It is a Diablo family hull, and a 26 footer, however the 22 FMS has a roomier, more useful cabin.
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 31 4:21 AM
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                                The original FMS is pictured in "Boats with an Open Mind". It is a Diablo
                                family hull, and a 26 footer, however the 22' FMS has a roomier, more useful
                                cabin. The biggest Diablo family hull I've seen is Samuel Clyde, a 31'
                                boat, also in "Boats with an Open Mind". Sam' Clyde has what I think is an
                                excellent cabin, but is designed for an I/O powerplant with no sail rig.

                                Here is a link to some boats built by Bill McKibben. Bill has modified his
                                prototype FMS I to look much like Sam' Clyde.

                                http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/mckib/Page.html

                                You could consider stretching the FMS 8'. It may be feasible given the
                                simple slab sided design of the FMS, but you would be on your own
                                accomplishing the task. Getting the mast positioned correctly to get the
                                thing to sail well is just part of the the changes. Being sure what you've
                                done is structurally up to sail and power stresses is another.

                                Don Schultz
                              • BllFs6@aol.com
                                In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:34:00 PM Central Daylight Time, graeme19121984@yahoo.com.au writes: A sketch would be good ;) just to check I ve got your
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 31 6:32 AM
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                                  In a message dated 5/30/2006 11:34:00 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                  graeme19121984@... writes:

                                  A sketch would be good ;) just to check I've got your layout right in
                                  my mind's eye. It seems a very flexible multi-use of the space
                                  available. I don't quite see how the outside sleeper lies down
                                  straight enough on the starboard side. I'm a bit concerned for the
                                  flooded stability, but perhaps it can all get away overboard quickly
                                  without impediment.

                                  Graeme





                                  There would be a foot well/bottom of the hull area about 4 feet long and
                                  2.5 feet wide on the starboard side which would be between the rear seat on the
                                  starboard side and the front/bow seat on the starboad side.

                                  If the space under the rear seat is not used, again your legs can stick
                                  under it and a body might fit laying down in foot well. But what would probably
                                  make more sense are some boards/planels that you lay across the footwell,
                                  thereby providing a flush raised deck that spans across the front starboard seat
                                  to the rear starboard seat.

                                  So the area under the aft starboard seat would probably be for storage.

                                  Again, the sleeping length is 7 feet give or take. The bow area of the this
                                  sleeping deck would be the narrow end, so you would most likely want to sleep
                                  with you head at the aft end.

                                  Another advantage of this layout, is if the outside sleeper needs shelter,
                                  "all" you have to do is run a tent/tarp from the cabin wall to the hull wall,
                                  so you are basically running a roof between 2 decently tall rigid structures,
                                  making the "tent" much more secure, and fairly simple. And I would think
                                  having "real" walls on a tent would go a long way towards reducing the typical
                                  tent problem of water seeping in from the sides.

                                  You might even be able to engineer thin solid panels that either store
                                  on/under the cabin roof or on cabin floor or in/on the cabin wall that span from
                                  the cabin wall to the hull to make your outside sleeping area. You might even
                                  be able to make it so they are attached to the cabin with hinges say and you
                                  just flip them over/up and bang, you gottcha yourself another little cabin.

                                  I think you could work it out so that a porta potty would store under the
                                  foward starboard seat. Not sure weather you would want it to stay under the
                                  seat and you just lift a lid to use it....or maybe it slides into the cockpit
                                  area to use....or maybe it slides out towards the port side to be used inside
                                  the cabin.

                                  This would certainly be an odd looking boat....and oldshoe is a bit odd
                                  looking to start with..but I fell in love with that design instantly and I still
                                  think its my favorite.

                                  It does give up a fair bit of cockpit space over the the original oldshoe
                                  for daysailing. But 2 easily and probably 3 adults can still be "topside". It
                                  does have the advantage of having a cabin/area that you can securely put one or
                                  two little kids in, or an area to duck outa the weather for one or 2 adults.
                                  You could probably get 2 adults, one mid sized kid, and 2 little ones in the
                                  boat if you kept what you brought aboard to a bare minimum.

                                  I sketched this out only knowing oldshoe's length and beam and eyeballing
                                  the width of the blunt bow, the width of the stern, and guessing at what the
                                  curve that defines the hull sides is like. I also guesstimated how much space
                                  the transom/motor well needs and the bow anchor well also. Its hard for me to
                                  guage how usefull/big/small the seats/footwells/cabin are, but I did run
                                  around sitting on alot of things with a ruler and laying in closets and under
                                  funiture etc etc...

                                  Again, in some respects its not as good as original oldshoe, but it looks to
                                  me that it would be a great daysailer that at a minimum can sail 2 adults
                                  easily, with a cabin for at least one adult to duck into in bad weather (around
                                  here on the northern gulf coast, the weather is typically good and fairly
                                  predictable except for pop up thunderstorms that typically dont last long), and
                                  for camping/cruising easily accomodates one "sailor".

                                  Since if I were using it thats how it would be used I think it would be a
                                  better match for me that oldshoe original.

                                  My orginal sketch is terrible in that I kept drawing new lines over the old
                                  ones as I shifted things around, so I will have to redo it with what I think
                                  is the "best" layout.

                                  Also, my computer and myself do not get along very well at all with yahoo
                                  for some strange reason, so someone here needs to give me their email so that I
                                  can email directly a scanned copy of the sketch and they can post it in the
                                  photo section.

                                  Also, what file format and resolution/file size would be the most
                                  appropriate? If different folks need different ones I would be happy to provide them.

                                  What would this boat be called? Newshoe of course :)

                                  Well, enough for now

                                  take care

                                  Blll


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • The Peillet-Long Family
                                  ... I think there are probably a lot of designs, Bolger and others, better suited to the role of a liveaboard coastal cruiser. If I remember correctly, FMS
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 31 12:04 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Folks
                                    >
                                    > Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
                                    > year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada and
                                    > the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
                                    > Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
                                    >

                                    I think there are probably a lot of designs, Bolger and others, better suited to the role of a
                                    liveaboard coastal cruiser. If I remember correctly, FMS was designed around a fairly large
                                    outboard (50 hp) which would be very expensive to feed at todays prices if you really
                                    wanted to go long distances and/or cruise much of the time. If you're planning to mostly
                                    stay at the marina, and just make occasional jaunts here and there, then of course that
                                    changes things.

                                    What exactly are your requirements in terms of accommodations, amenities, performance
                                    and cost? Why 28'-30'? Slip size? Shop size? Except for slip fees, length can be
                                    deceiving in terms of cost and/or difficulty to build. My 16' Yellow Leaf canoe went to
                                    gether faster and more easily than my 8' Brick, and was cheaper, to give a silly example.

                                    I have all of Bolger's books, and lots more besides, and might be able to make a few
                                    suggestions if I understood better what you wanted.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Matthew
                                  • Nels
                                    ... and ... Did anyone mention Retriever? There is an upgraded ersion as well as a stretched one proposed by Don Shulz. 90 HP Honda required to plane it which
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 2, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "waldofo" <waldofo@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Folks
                                      >
                                      > Want to build and liveaboard fulltime (well at least 6 months of the
                                      > year)on a coastal motorsailer/trawler for the west coast of Canada
                                      and
                                      > the USA. Has anyone designed and built a "stretched" Fast
                                      > Motorsailer? I need 28 to 30 footer.
                                      >
                                      Did anyone mention Retriever? There is an upgraded ersion as well as a
                                      stretched one proposed by Don Shulz. 90 HP Honda required to plane it
                                      which is a lot less than any production boat with that much room
                                      inside.

                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Retriever%20Cruiser%
                                      20No.%20631/

                                      Nels
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