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[bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

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  • adventures_in_astrophotography
    Hi Bruce, ... Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among others),
    Message 1 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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      Hi Bruce,

      ...snip...
      > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
      > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
      > visualization, key features when prototyping.

      Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to
      W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
      others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
      forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
      expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
      some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just print
      out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate bulkhead
      locations onto the panels?

      I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
      the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes and
      dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it does,
      it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a jig
      to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
      on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.

      > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
      > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
      ...snip...

      I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
      available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of different
      hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
      was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
      the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies in
      particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
      flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
      lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.

      Jon Kolb
      www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the expanded panel &
      Message 2 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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        > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
        > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

        I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept
        up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the
        expanded panel & bulkhead dimensions was 'wishlisted' for software
        development, and exporting to Autocad and a plotter was the best choice.

        Check here:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freeship_HTandT_Group

        or the Sourceforge Freeship pages.
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... I should have looked before clicking send but the new version of Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature Export boundary coordinates of
        Message 3 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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          > > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
          > > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

          I should have looked before clicking 'send' but the new version of
          Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature

          "Export boundary coordinates of developed plates to textfile"

          Which seems to fit the bill.

          http://www.freeship.org/
        • Michael Collins
          Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
          Message 4 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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            Chris,
            I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
            be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
            expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
            loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
            vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
            your arc.

            I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
            example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
            using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
            camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
            arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
            chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
            degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
            relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

            If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
            this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
            visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

            These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
            to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
            and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
            pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
            the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
            the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
            arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
            camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
            know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

            Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
            waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
            time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
            the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
            the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
            the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

            Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
            text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
            with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
            any.

            Michael Collins

            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Collins
            Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
            Message 5 of 19 , May 5, 2006
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              Chris,
              I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
              be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
              expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
              loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
              vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
              your arc.

              I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
              example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
              using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
              camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
              arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
              chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
              degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
              relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

              If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
              this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
              visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

              These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
              to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
              and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
              pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
              the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
              the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
              arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
              camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
              know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

              Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
              waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
              time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
              the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
              the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
              the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

              Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
              text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
              with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
              any.

              Michael Collins



              Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:

              > I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
              > with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do
              > things
              > the non-electric way.
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
              > Bruce Hallman
              > Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
              >
              >
              > > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
              > > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
              >
              > There are two issues,
              >
              > (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
              > (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.
              >
              > For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
              > you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
              > with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
              > of bending flat plates.
              >
              > I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
              > [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
              > allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
              > into curved surfaces.
              >
              > My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
              > thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.
              >
              > After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
              > to a 3D scale model in about one hour.
              >
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/
              >
              >
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              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
              > dead horses
              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
              > Fax: (978) 282-1349
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            • moose2much
              Hello Everybody, I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best results I ve
              Message 6 of 19 , May 6, 2006
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                Hello Everybody,

                I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to
                work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best
                results I've had so far is with OpenOffice Draw available free from
                www.OpenOffice.Org I need to work with it more. Started working with
                Plyboats and then FreeShip.

                Somehow I was able to make Plyboats work in XPpro and print to a
                parallel laser printer. Even have an icon on the desktop that works.

                From and Plyboats Email to Ray Clark:

                I had some problems with the DEMO not accepting mouse and cursor
                movement when I tried to run the program from the XP command promp.
                I extracted the ZIP some other way in XP, maybe using XP's extractor
                and an icon was placed on the desktop and the program now works.
                This may help if someone else has the same problem

                Plyboats running in whatever mysterious way actually takes much
                more time to execute calculations than FreeShip.

                Roger Van Arnam
                Micanopy Beach Florida


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                <jon@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Bruce,
                >
                > ...snip...
                > > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
                > > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
                > > visualization, key features when prototyping.
                >
                > Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right
                to
                > W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
                > others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
                > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
                > some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just
                print
                > out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate
                bulkhead
                > locations onto the panels?
                >
                > I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
                > the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes
                and
                > dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it
                does,
                > it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a
                jig
                > to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
                > on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.
                >
                > > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
                > > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
                > ...snip...
                >
                > I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
                > available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of
                different
                > hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
                > was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
                > the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies
                in
                > particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
                > flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
                > lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.
                >
                > Jon Kolb
                > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                >
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