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Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... Can t argue with you there, as I too have worked to develop expanding panels using pencil and paper. I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
    Message 1 of 19 , May 3, 2006
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      On 5/3/06, Christopher C. Wetherill <wetherillc@...> wrote:
      > I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
      > with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
      > the non-electric way.

      Can't argue with you there, as I too have worked to develop expanding panels
      using pencil and paper. I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
      has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and visualization,
      key features when prototyping.

      I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you need to go
      through many many itierations by trial and error. This is possible in one's head
      (but only if you are a genius like Bolger or Herreshoff), or with
      computers (though
      not with pencil + paper). Quick 'trial and error' prototyping is
      practical now for
      ordinary people for the first time in the history because of this software.
    • kreamer
      A piece of stiff paper of thin cardboard enforces its own just like plywood rules. You can maintain a certain bottom-centerline profile (which curve would be
      Message 2 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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        A piece of stiff paper of thin cardboard enforces its own "just like
        plywood" rules. You can maintain a certain bottom-centerline profile (which
        curve would be planar in the vertical orientation) and a certain planar
        chine curve (with its plane vertical, horizontal, and fore-and-aft, or at
        any other orientation), by fixing (gluing) in the workspace a thin planar
        piece of heavy cardboard with the curve of your choice cut in its edge.

        Then force the paper or cardboard against the rigid card-edge with fingers,
        glue or complementary curves cut in other card-edges. The only rules being
        enforced in this little system are that the paper will (must) act like
        plywood, and the two card-edge curves will be maintained. The edges of the
        paper (representing the plywood) can then be trimmed to a pleasing or
        functional curve. The starting curves, alternatively, can be the shear and
        chine. - Bill



        _____

        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Christopher C. Wetherill
        Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:41 PM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood



        I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
        with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
        the non-electric way.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
        Bruce Hallman
        Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood


        > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
        > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

        There are two issues,

        (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
        (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.

        For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
        you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
        with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
        of bending flat plates.

        I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
        [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
        allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
        into curved surfaces.

        My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
        thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.

        After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
        to a 3D scale model in about one hour.

        http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/


        Bolger rules!!!
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        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
        horses
        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
        (978) 282-1349
        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links








        Bolger rules!!!
        - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
        horses
        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
        (978) 282-1349
        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com




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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • adventures_in_astrophotography
        Hi Bruce, ... Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among others),
        Message 3 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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          Hi Bruce,

          ...snip...
          > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
          > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
          > visualization, key features when prototyping.

          Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to
          W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
          others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
          forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
          expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
          some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just print
          out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate bulkhead
          locations onto the panels?

          I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
          the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes and
          dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it does,
          it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a jig
          to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
          on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.

          > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
          > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
          ...snip...

          I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
          available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of different
          hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
          was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
          the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies in
          particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
          flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
          lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.

          Jon Kolb
          www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the expanded panel &
          Message 4 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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            > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
            > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

            I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept
            up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the
            expanded panel & bulkhead dimensions was 'wishlisted' for software
            development, and exporting to Autocad and a plotter was the best choice.

            Check here:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freeship_HTandT_Group

            or the Sourceforge Freeship pages.
          • Bruce Hallman
            ... I should have looked before clicking send but the new version of Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature Export boundary coordinates of
            Message 5 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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              > > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
              > > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

              I should have looked before clicking 'send' but the new version of
              Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature

              "Export boundary coordinates of developed plates to textfile"

              Which seems to fit the bill.

              http://www.freeship.org/
            • Michael Collins
              Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
              Message 6 of 19 , May 4, 2006
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                Chris,
                I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
                be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
                expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
                loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
                vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
                your arc.

                I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
                example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
                using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
                camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
                arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
                chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
                degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
                relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

                If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
                this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
                visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

                These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
                to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
                and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
                pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
                the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
                the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
                arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
                camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
                know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

                Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
                waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
                time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
                the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
                the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
                the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

                Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
                text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
                with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
                any.

                Michael Collins

                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael Collins
                Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
                Message 7 of 19 , May 5, 2006
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                  Chris,
                  I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
                  be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
                  expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
                  loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
                  vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
                  your arc.

                  I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
                  example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
                  using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
                  camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
                  arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
                  chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
                  degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
                  relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

                  If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
                  this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
                  visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

                  These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
                  to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
                  and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
                  pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
                  the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
                  the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
                  arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
                  camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
                  know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

                  Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
                  waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
                  time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
                  the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
                  the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
                  the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

                  Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
                  text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
                  with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
                  any.

                  Michael Collins



                  Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:

                  > I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
                  > with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do
                  > things
                  > the non-electric way.
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                  > Bruce Hallman
                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
                  >
                  >
                  > > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
                  > > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
                  >
                  > There are two issues,
                  >
                  > (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
                  > (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.
                  >
                  > For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
                  > you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
                  > with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
                  > of bending flat plates.
                  >
                  > I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
                  > [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
                  > allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
                  > into curved surfaces.
                  >
                  > My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
                  > thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.
                  >
                  > After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
                  > to a 3D scale model in about one hour.
                  >
                  > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                  > horses
                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                  > (978) 282-1349
                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                  > dead horses
                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                  > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • moose2much
                  Hello Everybody, I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best results I ve
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 6, 2006
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                    Hello Everybody,

                    I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to
                    work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best
                    results I've had so far is with OpenOffice Draw available free from
                    www.OpenOffice.Org I need to work with it more. Started working with
                    Plyboats and then FreeShip.

                    Somehow I was able to make Plyboats work in XPpro and print to a
                    parallel laser printer. Even have an icon on the desktop that works.

                    From and Plyboats Email to Ray Clark:

                    I had some problems with the DEMO not accepting mouse and cursor
                    movement when I tried to run the program from the XP command promp.
                    I extracted the ZIP some other way in XP, maybe using XP's extractor
                    and an icon was placed on the desktop and the program now works.
                    This may help if someone else has the same problem

                    Plyboats running in whatever mysterious way actually takes much
                    more time to execute calculations than FreeShip.

                    Roger Van Arnam
                    Micanopy Beach Florida


                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                    <jon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Bruce,
                    >
                    > ...snip...
                    > > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
                    > > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
                    > > visualization, key features when prototyping.
                    >
                    > Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right
                    to
                    > W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
                    > others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
                    > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                    > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
                    > some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just
                    print
                    > out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate
                    bulkhead
                    > locations onto the panels?
                    >
                    > I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
                    > the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes
                    and
                    > dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it
                    does,
                    > it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a
                    jig
                    > to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
                    > on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.
                    >
                    > > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
                    > > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
                    > ...snip...
                    >
                    > I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
                    > available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of
                    different
                    > hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
                    > was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
                    > the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies
                    in
                    > particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
                    > flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
                    > lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.
                    >
                    > Jon Kolb
                    > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                    >
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