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RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

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  • Christopher C. Wetherill
    This title by Rabl is in print: Ship and aircraft fairing and development, for draftsmen and loftsmen and sheet metal workers . I do not know if it answers
    Message 1 of 19 , May 3 10:40 AM
      This title by Rabl is in print: "Ship and aircraft fairing and development,
      for draftsmen and loftsmen and sheet metal workers". I do not know if it
      answers my questions. I have it on order at my local book shop. Another
      title, "Practical Principles of Naval Architecture" is out of print, but
      some editions are on the used market.

      Chris

      -----Original Message-----
      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
      pvanderwaart
      Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:25 AM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood


      > Isn't there supposed to be a pertinent book by a guy named Rabl?

      The late Sam Rabl was one of those enthusiasts who drew a huge
      following due to being a prolific and amusing writer. He knew what he
      was doing as a designer since he earned his living in the big ship
      design/building business. His best-known book is Boatbuilding In Your
      Own Backyard, published 50 years ago or so, and somewhat out of date.
      It's about building, though, and not design.

      I think that Rabl may have published a design book, but if so, I've
      never seen it, nor do I know the title. It would be a great thing to find.

      Peter








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    • welshman@ptialaska.net
      Looked it up on boofinder and got this one interesting comment The best introduction to working with and from boat lines ever printed. John Gardner, curator,
      Message 2 of 19 , May 3 10:44 AM
        Looked it up on boofinder and got this one interesting comment

        The best introduction to working with and from boat lines ever printed." John Gardner, curator, Mystic Seaport Museum.

        HJ

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
        Date: Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:40 am
        Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

        > This title by Rabl is in print: "Ship and aircraft fairing and
        > development,for draftsmen and loftsmen and sheet metal workers".
        > I do not know if it
        > answers my questions. I have it on order at my local book shop.
        > Anothertitle, "Practical Principles of Naval Architecture" is out
        > of print, but
        > some editions are on the used market.
        >
        > Chris
        >
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... There are two issues, (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood. For (2), the
        Message 3 of 19 , May 3 12:50 PM
          > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
          > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

          There are two issues,

          (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
          (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.

          For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
          you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
          with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
          of bending flat plates.

          I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
          [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
          allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
          into curved surfaces.

          My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
          thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.

          After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
          to a 3D scale model in about one hour.

          http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/
        • Christopher C. Wetherill
          I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing with hull.exe for a while and it s nice, but I like being able to do things the
          Message 4 of 19 , May 3 1:41 PM
            I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
            with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
            the non-electric way.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            Bruce Hallman
            Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood


            > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
            > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

            There are two issues,

            (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
            (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.

            For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
            you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
            with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
            of bending flat plates.

            I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
            [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
            allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
            into curved surfaces.

            My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
            thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.

            After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
            to a 3D scale model in about one hour.

            http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/


            Bolger rules!!!
            - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
            horses
            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
            (978) 282-1349
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          • Bruce Hallman
            ... Can t argue with you there, as I too have worked to develop expanding panels using pencil and paper. I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
            Message 5 of 19 , May 3 2:01 PM
              On 5/3/06, Christopher C. Wetherill <wetherillc@...> wrote:
              > I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
              > with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
              > the non-electric way.

              Can't argue with you there, as I too have worked to develop expanding panels
              using pencil and paper. I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
              has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and visualization,
              key features when prototyping.

              I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you need to go
              through many many itierations by trial and error. This is possible in one's head
              (but only if you are a genius like Bolger or Herreshoff), or with
              computers (though
              not with pencil + paper). Quick 'trial and error' prototyping is
              practical now for
              ordinary people for the first time in the history because of this software.
            • kreamer
              A piece of stiff paper of thin cardboard enforces its own just like plywood rules. You can maintain a certain bottom-centerline profile (which curve would be
              Message 6 of 19 , May 4 5:24 AM
                A piece of stiff paper of thin cardboard enforces its own "just like
                plywood" rules. You can maintain a certain bottom-centerline profile (which
                curve would be planar in the vertical orientation) and a certain planar
                chine curve (with its plane vertical, horizontal, and fore-and-aft, or at
                any other orientation), by fixing (gluing) in the workspace a thin planar
                piece of heavy cardboard with the curve of your choice cut in its edge.

                Then force the paper or cardboard against the rigid card-edge with fingers,
                glue or complementary curves cut in other card-edges. The only rules being
                enforced in this little system are that the paper will (must) act like
                plywood, and the two card-edge curves will be maintained. The edges of the
                paper (representing the plywood) can then be trimmed to a pleasing or
                functional curve. The starting curves, alternatively, can be the shear and
                chine. - Bill



                _____

                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Christopher C. Wetherill
                Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:41 PM
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood



                I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
                with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
                the non-electric way.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                Bruce Hallman
                Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood


                > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
                > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

                There are two issues,

                (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
                (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.

                For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
                you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
                with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
                of bending flat plates.

                I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
                [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
                allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
                into curved surfaces.

                My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
                thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.

                After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
                to a 3D scale model in about one hour.

                http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/


                Bolger rules!!!
                - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                horses
                - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                (978) 282-1349
                - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Yahoo! Groups Links








                Bolger rules!!!
                - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                horses
                - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                (978) 282-1349
                - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com




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              • adventures_in_astrophotography
                Hi Bruce, ... Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among others),
                Message 7 of 19 , May 4 6:39 AM
                  Hi Bruce,

                  ...snip...
                  > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
                  > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
                  > visualization, key features when prototyping.

                  Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to
                  W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
                  others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
                  forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                  expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
                  some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just print
                  out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate bulkhead
                  locations onto the panels?

                  I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
                  the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes and
                  dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it does,
                  it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a jig
                  to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
                  on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.

                  > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
                  > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
                  ...snip...

                  I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
                  available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of different
                  hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
                  was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
                  the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies in
                  particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
                  flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
                  lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.

                  Jon Kolb
                  www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the expanded panel &
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 4 8:13 AM
                    > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                    > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

                    I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept
                    up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the
                    expanded panel & bulkhead dimensions was 'wishlisted' for software
                    development, and exporting to Autocad and a plotter was the best choice.

                    Check here:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freeship_HTandT_Group

                    or the Sourceforge Freeship pages.
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... I should have looked before clicking send but the new version of Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature Export boundary coordinates of
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 4 8:18 AM
                      > > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                      > > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

                      I should have looked before clicking 'send' but the new version of
                      Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature

                      "Export boundary coordinates of developed plates to textfile"

                      Which seems to fit the bill.

                      http://www.freeship.org/
                    • Michael Collins
                      Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 4 6:36 PM
                        Chris,
                        I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
                        be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
                        expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
                        loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
                        vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
                        your arc.

                        I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
                        example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
                        using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
                        camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
                        arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
                        chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
                        degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
                        relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

                        If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
                        this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
                        visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

                        These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
                        to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
                        and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
                        pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
                        the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
                        the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
                        arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
                        camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
                        know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

                        Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
                        waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
                        time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
                        the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
                        the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
                        the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

                        Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
                        text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
                        with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
                        any.

                        Michael Collins

                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Collins
                        Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 5 8:20 PM
                          Chris,
                          I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
                          be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
                          expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
                          loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
                          vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
                          your arc.

                          I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
                          example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
                          using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
                          camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
                          arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
                          chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
                          degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
                          relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

                          If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
                          this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
                          visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

                          These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
                          to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
                          and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
                          pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
                          the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
                          the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
                          arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
                          camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
                          know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

                          Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
                          waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
                          time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
                          the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
                          the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
                          the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

                          Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
                          text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
                          with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
                          any.

                          Michael Collins



                          Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:

                          > I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
                          > with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do
                          > things
                          > the non-electric way.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                          > Bruce Hallman
                          > Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
                          >
                          >
                          > > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
                          > > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
                          >
                          > There are two issues,
                          >
                          > (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
                          > (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.
                          >
                          > For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
                          > you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
                          > with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
                          > of bending flat plates.
                          >
                          > I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
                          > [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
                          > allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
                          > into curved surfaces.
                          >
                          > My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
                          > thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.
                          >
                          > After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
                          > to a 3D scale model in about one hour.
                          >
                          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                          > horses
                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                          > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                          > (978) 282-1349
                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                          > dead horses
                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                          > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                          > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        • moose2much
                          Hello Everybody, I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best results I ve
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 6 9:11 AM
                            Hello Everybody,

                            I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to
                            work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best
                            results I've had so far is with OpenOffice Draw available free from
                            www.OpenOffice.Org I need to work with it more. Started working with
                            Plyboats and then FreeShip.

                            Somehow I was able to make Plyboats work in XPpro and print to a
                            parallel laser printer. Even have an icon on the desktop that works.

                            From and Plyboats Email to Ray Clark:

                            I had some problems with the DEMO not accepting mouse and cursor
                            movement when I tried to run the program from the XP command promp.
                            I extracted the ZIP some other way in XP, maybe using XP's extractor
                            and an icon was placed on the desktop and the program now works.
                            This may help if someone else has the same problem

                            Plyboats running in whatever mysterious way actually takes much
                            more time to execute calculations than FreeShip.

                            Roger Van Arnam
                            Micanopy Beach Florida


                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                            <jon@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Bruce,
                            >
                            > ...snip...
                            > > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
                            > > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
                            > > visualization, key features when prototyping.
                            >
                            > Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right
                            to
                            > W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
                            > others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
                            > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                            > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
                            > some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just
                            print
                            > out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate
                            bulkhead
                            > locations onto the panels?
                            >
                            > I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
                            > the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes
                            and
                            > dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it
                            does,
                            > it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a
                            jig
                            > to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
                            > on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.
                            >
                            > > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
                            > > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
                            > ...snip...
                            >
                            > I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
                            > available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of
                            different
                            > hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
                            > was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
                            > the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies
                            in
                            > particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
                            > flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
                            > lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.
                            >
                            > Jon Kolb
                            > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                            >
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