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Re: Design With Plywood

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  • pvanderwaart
    ... The late Sam Rabl was one of those enthusiasts who drew a huge following due to being a prolific and amusing writer. He knew what he was doing as a
    Message 1 of 19 , May 3, 2006
      > Isn't there supposed to be a pertinent book by a guy named Rabl?

      The late Sam Rabl was one of those enthusiasts who drew a huge
      following due to being a prolific and amusing writer. He knew what he
      was doing as a designer since he earned his living in the big ship
      design/building business. His best-known book is Boatbuilding In Your
      Own Backyard, published 50 years ago or so, and somewhat out of date.
      It's about building, though, and not design.

      I think that Rabl may have published a design book, but if so, I've
      never seen it, nor do I know the title. It would be a great thing to find.

      Peter
    • Christopher C. Wetherill
      This title by Rabl is in print: Ship and aircraft fairing and development, for draftsmen and loftsmen and sheet metal workers . I do not know if it answers
      Message 2 of 19 , May 3, 2006
        This title by Rabl is in print: "Ship and aircraft fairing and development,
        for draftsmen and loftsmen and sheet metal workers". I do not know if it
        answers my questions. I have it on order at my local book shop. Another
        title, "Practical Principles of Naval Architecture" is out of print, but
        some editions are on the used market.

        Chris

        -----Original Message-----
        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
        pvanderwaart
        Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:25 AM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood


        > Isn't there supposed to be a pertinent book by a guy named Rabl?

        The late Sam Rabl was one of those enthusiasts who drew a huge
        following due to being a prolific and amusing writer. He knew what he
        was doing as a designer since he earned his living in the big ship
        design/building business. His best-known book is Boatbuilding In Your
        Own Backyard, published 50 years ago or so, and somewhat out of date.
        It's about building, though, and not design.

        I think that Rabl may have published a design book, but if so, I've
        never seen it, nor do I know the title. It would be a great thing to find.

        Peter








        Bolger rules!!!
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        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
        horses
        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
        (978) 282-1349
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      • welshman@ptialaska.net
        Looked it up on boofinder and got this one interesting comment The best introduction to working with and from boat lines ever printed. John Gardner, curator,
        Message 3 of 19 , May 3, 2006
          Looked it up on boofinder and got this one interesting comment

          The best introduction to working with and from boat lines ever printed." John Gardner, curator, Mystic Seaport Museum.

          HJ

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
          Date: Wednesday, May 3, 2006 9:40 am
          Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

          > This title by Rabl is in print: "Ship and aircraft fairing and
          > development,for draftsmen and loftsmen and sheet metal workers".
          > I do not know if it
          > answers my questions. I have it on order at my local book shop.
          > Anothertitle, "Practical Principles of Naval Architecture" is out
          > of print, but
          > some editions are on the used market.
          >
          > Chris
          >
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... There are two issues, (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood. For (2), the
          Message 4 of 19 , May 3, 2006
            > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
            > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

            There are two issues,

            (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
            (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.

            For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
            you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
            with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
            of bending flat plates.

            I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
            [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
            allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
            into curved surfaces.

            My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
            thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.

            After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
            to a 3D scale model in about one hour.

            http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/
          • Christopher C. Wetherill
            I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing with hull.exe for a while and it s nice, but I like being able to do things the
            Message 5 of 19 , May 3, 2006
              I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
              with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
              the non-electric way.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
              Bruce Hallman
              Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood


              > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
              > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

              There are two issues,

              (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
              (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.

              For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
              you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
              with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
              of bending flat plates.

              I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
              [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
              allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
              into curved surfaces.

              My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
              thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.

              After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
              to a 3D scale model in about one hour.

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/


              Bolger rules!!!
              - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
              horses
              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
              (978) 282-1349
              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Can t argue with you there, as I too have worked to develop expanding panels using pencil and paper. I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
              Message 6 of 19 , May 3, 2006
                On 5/3/06, Christopher C. Wetherill <wetherillc@...> wrote:
                > I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
                > with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
                > the non-electric way.

                Can't argue with you there, as I too have worked to develop expanding panels
                using pencil and paper. I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
                has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and visualization,
                key features when prototyping.

                I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you need to go
                through many many itierations by trial and error. This is possible in one's head
                (but only if you are a genius like Bolger or Herreshoff), or with
                computers (though
                not with pencil + paper). Quick 'trial and error' prototyping is
                practical now for
                ordinary people for the first time in the history because of this software.
              • kreamer
                A piece of stiff paper of thin cardboard enforces its own just like plywood rules. You can maintain a certain bottom-centerline profile (which curve would be
                Message 7 of 19 , May 4, 2006
                  A piece of stiff paper of thin cardboard enforces its own "just like
                  plywood" rules. You can maintain a certain bottom-centerline profile (which
                  curve would be planar in the vertical orientation) and a certain planar
                  chine curve (with its plane vertical, horizontal, and fore-and-aft, or at
                  any other orientation), by fixing (gluing) in the workspace a thin planar
                  piece of heavy cardboard with the curve of your choice cut in its edge.

                  Then force the paper or cardboard against the rigid card-edge with fingers,
                  glue or complementary curves cut in other card-edges. The only rules being
                  enforced in this little system are that the paper will (must) act like
                  plywood, and the two card-edge curves will be maintained. The edges of the
                  paper (representing the plywood) can then be trimmed to a pleasing or
                  functional curve. The starting curves, alternatively, can be the shear and
                  chine. - Bill



                  _____

                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Christopher C. Wetherill
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:41 PM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood



                  I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
                  with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do things
                  the non-electric way.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                  Bruce Hallman
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood


                  > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
                  > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood

                  There are two issues,

                  (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
                  (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.

                  For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
                  you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
                  with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
                  of bending flat plates.

                  I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
                  [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
                  allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
                  into curved surfaces.

                  My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
                  thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.

                  After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
                  to a 3D scale model in about one hour.

                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/


                  Bolger rules!!!
                  - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                  horses
                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                  (978) 282-1349
                  - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Yahoo! Groups Links








                  Bolger rules!!!
                  - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                  horses
                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                  (978) 282-1349
                  - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com




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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • adventures_in_astrophotography
                  Hi Bruce, ... Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among others),
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 4, 2006
                    Hi Bruce,

                    ...snip...
                    > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
                    > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
                    > visualization, key features when prototyping.

                    Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right to
                    W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
                    others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
                    forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                    expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
                    some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just print
                    out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate bulkhead
                    locations onto the panels?

                    I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
                    the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes and
                    dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it does,
                    it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a jig
                    to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
                    on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.

                    > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
                    > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
                    ...snip...

                    I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
                    available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of different
                    hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
                    was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
                    the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies in
                    particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
                    flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
                    lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.

                    Jon Kolb
                    www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the expanded panel &
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 4, 2006
                      > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                      > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

                      I am not the best person to answer that question, as I have not kept
                      up with Freeship since November of 2005. At that point in time, the
                      expanded panel & bulkhead dimensions was 'wishlisted' for software
                      development, and exporting to Autocad and a plotter was the best choice.

                      Check here:

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freeship_HTandT_Group

                      or the Sourceforge Freeship pages.
                    • Bruce Hallman
                      ... I should have looked before clicking send but the new version of Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature Export boundary coordinates of
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 4, 2006
                        > > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                        > > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program.

                        I should have looked before clicking 'send' but the new version of
                        Freeship, according to the website, has the new feature

                        "Export boundary coordinates of developed plates to textfile"

                        Which seems to fit the bill.

                        http://www.freeship.org/
                      • Michael Collins
                        Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 4, 2006
                          Chris,
                          I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
                          be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
                          expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
                          loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
                          vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
                          your arc.

                          I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
                          example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
                          using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
                          camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
                          arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
                          chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
                          degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
                          relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

                          If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
                          this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
                          visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

                          These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
                          to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
                          and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
                          pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
                          the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
                          the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
                          arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
                          camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
                          know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

                          Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
                          waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
                          time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
                          the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
                          the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
                          the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

                          Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
                          text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
                          with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
                          any.

                          Michael Collins

                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael Collins
                          Chris, I ve had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical expression is
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 5, 2006
                            Chris,
                            I've had some pretty interesting results using arcs or arches. Arcs can
                            be manipulated geometrically because their explicit mathematical
                            expression is relatively simple compared to NURBS. Arcs are simple to
                            loft. All you need to know is the radius of curvature and the
                            vertual center of radius. Using a compass or a string, you can draw
                            your arc.

                            I started using arcs as a means of analyzing other designers' work. For
                            example, looking at Phil Bolger's Tortis and Brick in the profile and
                            using the waterline as the chord, you see an approximate arc with a
                            camber of about 10% of the chord below the water line. I reduced this
                            arc to a single number, expressed as the arc Tan ( Camber/ (1/2
                            chord)). By looking at several designs, I found that an arc of about 10
                            degrees in the profile of the canoe body is characteristic of a
                            relatively slow boat capable of carrying a large load.

                            If chord is 10.7639 units in length, camber is 1.0, then I would call
                            this a 10.5258 degree arc. By naming it in degrees it is easier to
                            visuallize, since the angle is close to the entry angle.

                            These arcs' geometry can be easily manipulated with a calculator - Easy
                            to design with and loft in cardstock or plywood. I use a spreadsheet
                            and a caculator for complex designs. The camber of an arc in a plywood
                            pannel can be established from the arc in the profile and the angle of
                            the pannel from the vertical. For example, say you choose the arc for
                            the profile view, yet the topside is flared out 6 degrees. The profile
                            arc can then be rotated through 6 degrees using triginometry to find the
                            camber of the arc required on the plywood pannel. Now, you need to
                            know the chord for the arc in the plywood pannel.

                            Say you have a plan view with an arch for the side of a scow. This
                            waterline arc effects the same pannel we were just discussing. This
                            time we rotate the plan view arc until it's camber is perpendicular to
                            the camber of the arc we just rotated from the profile. The length of
                            the perimeter of the plan view arch rotated will give you the length of
                            the chord you would need to loft the pannel for the topside.

                            Sorry if this is confusing. It seems a bit complex to be describing by
                            text. Hopefully it gives you some idea about the concept of designing
                            with arcs. I'll try answering questions about the technique if you have
                            any.

                            Michael Collins



                            Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:

                            > I am looking for ways to do it with pencil and paper. I have been playing
                            > with hull.exe for a while and it's nice, but I like being able to do
                            > things
                            > the non-electric way.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                            > Bruce Hallman
                            > Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:51 PM
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
                            >
                            >
                            > > From: "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...>
                            > > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Design With Plywood
                            >
                            > There are two issues,
                            >
                            > (1) the strength/durability of plywood materials, and
                            > (2) the topology of developed shapes / the curvature of plywood.
                            >
                            > For (2), the development of curved shapes by bending flat sheets,
                            > you can skip the book theory altogether and experiment directly
                            > with computer programs that automatically take care of the mathatics
                            > of bending flat plates.
                            >
                            > I especially like the opensource software FreeShip.
                            > [Also, I like the Hulls.exe software.] Both of these
                            > allow you to easily experiment with the bending of flat plates
                            > into curved surfaces.
                            >
                            > My personal favorite is to print the experimental hulls onto
                            > thin cardboard, and use sissors and tape to make models.
                            >
                            > After just a little practice you can get from an idea in your head
                            > to a 3D scale model in about one hour.
                            >
                            > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/71601266/
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
                            > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                            > horses
                            > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                            > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                            > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                            > (978) 282-1349
                            > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
                            > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                            > dead horses
                            > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                            > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                            > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                            > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
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                          • moose2much
                            Hello Everybody, I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best results I ve
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 6, 2006
                              Hello Everybody,

                              I have tried several of the DXF viewers and could not get any to
                              work. They all seemed to be teasers for paid products. The best
                              results I've had so far is with OpenOffice Draw available free from
                              www.OpenOffice.Org I need to work with it more. Started working with
                              Plyboats and then FreeShip.

                              Somehow I was able to make Plyboats work in XPpro and print to a
                              parallel laser printer. Even have an icon on the desktop that works.

                              From and Plyboats Email to Ray Clark:

                              I had some problems with the DEMO not accepting mouse and cursor
                              movement when I tried to run the program from the XP command promp.
                              I extracted the ZIP some other way in XP, maybe using XP's extractor
                              and an icon was placed on the desktop and the program now works.
                              This may help if someone else has the same problem

                              Plyboats running in whatever mysterious way actually takes much
                              more time to execute calculations than FreeShip.

                              Roger Van Arnam
                              Micanopy Beach Florida


                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                              <jon@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Bruce,
                              >
                              > ...snip...
                              > > I also agree that hull.exe is nice. Though, FreeShip
                              > > has hull.exe beat ten times over when it comes to modeling and
                              > > visualization, key features when prototyping.
                              >
                              > Several years ago I used Plyboats, but it never ported quite right
                              to
                              > W2K, and since it has a lot of limitations (only two chines, among
                              > others), I gave up on it. I've just downloaded Free!ship and look
                              > forward to giving it a try. One question for you, though, is how
                              > expanded panel dimensions are output from the program. Do I need
                              > some other application that can read .dxf files, or can I just
                              print
                              > out the panel dimensions from Free!ship? Will it translate
                              bulkhead
                              > locations onto the panels?
                              >
                              > I was thinking of starting with the offsets for Cartoon 40, scaling
                              > the length at 125% per PCB's suggestion, and getting panel shapes
                              and
                              > dimensions from the application. Think this will work? If it
                              does,
                              > it would allow me to assemble the sides and bulkheads, then use a
                              jig
                              > to hold everything square, rather than making critical measurements
                              > on the jig, erecting the bulkheads, then spiling the panel shapes.
                              >
                              > > I have the personal theory that to get a boat design 'right' you
                              > > need to go through many many itierations by trial and error.
                              > ...snip...
                              >
                              > I agree, and think it's true even using the software tools
                              > available. Using Plyboats, I made many cardboard models of
                              different
                              > hull shapes, including a lot of sharpies and box-keel designs. It
                              > was always interesting to see just how bad a model could look when
                              > the wire-frame in the software looked so good. Slab-side sharpies
                              in
                              > particular can look fine on the screen, but not so great in "the
                              > flesh." Part of the problem was Plyboats' limitation of fixing the
                              > lowest point of the sheer at the point of maximum beam.
                              >
                              > Jon Kolb
                              > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                              >
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