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Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies

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  • Eric OHiggins
    As usual, watching this space has caused my brain cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the thots. The brainwave here concerns wishbones --
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
      cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
      thots.
      The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
      on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
      or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
      I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
      instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
      sprit one on each side of the sail.
      The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
      you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
      structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
      snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
      should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
      leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
      sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
      I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
      and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
      Eric


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    • Mike French
      A wishbone that mimics a symmetrical airfoil ie a fully rounded leading edge need not be particularly strong. The snotter attaches to the inside of the curve
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
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        A wishbone that mimics a symmetrical airfoil ie a fully rounded
        leading edge need not be particularly strong. The snotter attaches to
        the inside of the curve at the centre and leads back to a block on the
        leading edge of the mast, thence down to a deck block and to a cleat.
        The wishbone loads are mostly compression.
        The snotter also functions as an outhaul and a cunningham, driving the
        wishbone aft and down to flatten the sail and tighten the leach and
        foot simultaneously. A 420 sq. ft. Nonsuch sail could be adjusted
        without a winch by simply luffing. Its wishbone was 25 feet long of
        2.5-3 inch dia. aluminum and probably weighed close to 80 lbs. it hung
        from 2 fixed length wire pennnants attached to each side of the mast.

        Mike

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Eric OHiggins <chaemeocyparis@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
        > cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
        > thots.
        > The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
        > on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
        > or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
        > I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
        > instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
        > sprit one on each side of the sail.
        > The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
        > you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
        > structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
        > snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
        > should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
        > leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
        > sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
        > I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
        > and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
        > Eric
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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      • John and Kathy Trussell
        I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn t exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn t worth fooling with. I
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
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          I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try PCB's way first.

          John T
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Eric OHiggins
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies



          As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
          cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
          thots.
          The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
          on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
          or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
          I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
          instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
          sprit one on each side of the sail.
          The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
          you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
          structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
          snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
          should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
          leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
          sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
          I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
          and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
          Eric


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        • Douglas Pollard
          A straight sprit can be about 1/2 the diameter and weight of a curved sprit. Since most of the load is compression. The curved boom on Wolftrap weighed 16 lbs
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
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            A straight sprit can be about 1/2 the diameter and weight of a curved sprit. Since most of the load is compression. The curved boom on Wolftrap weighed 16 lbs was 21/2 dia. and the straight sprit was about 1 3/4 in. in diameter it was 1/16 thick and weighed 7 lb. The main was 425 sq Ft. There was a 16 ft top yard that stuck 10 ft above the top of the mast it only weighed 6 lbs. The loads are pretty light on the spars other than the mast on a sprit rig. I find it amazing and I had no idea that the bow weighs 80 lbs on a Nonsuch. That's 40 pounds per side and that is almost 3 times the weight of the curved sprit on Wolftrap. Seems like huge overkill to me.
            Doug
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: John and Kathy Trussell
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 8:03 PM
            Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies


            I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try PCB's way first.

            John T
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Eric OHiggins
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
            Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies



            As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
            cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
            thots.
            The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
            on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
            or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
            I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
            instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
            sprit one on each side of the sail.
            The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
            you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
            structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
            snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
            should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
            leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
            sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
            I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
            and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
            Eric


            __________________________________________________
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            Bolger rules!!!
            - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
            - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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            Great outdoors


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Bolger rules!!!
            - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
            - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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            a.. Visit your group "bolger" on the web.

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          • Peter Lenihan
            ... either doesn t exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn t worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn t tell any
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 4, 2006
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
              <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
              >
              > I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which
              either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it
              isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and
              couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and
              the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and,
              if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a
              boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm
              right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution
              are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to
              have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try
              PCB's way first.


              I'll second that(!) and add that on my ex-Micro,LESTAT, I can't
              recall ever noticing a deficiency on one tack or the other over
              several years of sailing in all sorts of weather but made a point of
              keeping the mizzen sprit-boom rigged on the opposite side,relative
              to the main sprit-boom...just is case there was a difference :-)
              Besides,only multi-millionaire-winning-is-EVERYTHING-die-hard-racers
              really ever care about the 1/100th of a knot difference such-n-such
              a gadget may or may not provide when out sailing/racing.
              Considering that most of us are limited in the number of hours worth
              of leisure time we have to burn,it would appear better to introduce
              devices which will actually keep us "out there" longer.....as in the
              cell phone call to our spouse,"Hi honey,it looks like I'm gonna be a
              bit late coming home since the wind is slowly dying and is coming
              over the "wrong" side of the sprit-boom.....again.....love ya,bye!"
              Beyond that,most of us have as our destination,when we head out for
              a sail,the very same point of departure! Why rush to get back
              there,unless your really do not like spending time on the water! :-D


              Sincerely,

              Peter Lenihan,looking forward to the day when I can call work and
              say,"Hi boss,can't come in today,there is hardly any wind,not a
              cloud in the sky,lots-o-beer left in the cooler,girlfriend gettin'
              frisky and the darn motor won't shut itself off!"...from along the
              shores of the rainy St.Lawrence...............
            • Lincoln Ross
              Tech dinghy racers on the Charles River very often have no money but care a lot about 1/100th of a knot. Given my abilities, I needed at least 1/10 knot. Saw a
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 4, 2006
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                Tech dinghy racers on the Charles River very often have no money but
                care a lot about 1/100th of a knot. Given my abilities, I needed at
                least 1/10 knot. Saw a lot of transoms racing with that crowd.

                If you plotted the courses of those who crossed the line just after
                the signal, it would look like a diagram of how to knit a sweater.
                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
                snip
                > Besides,only multi-millionaire-winning-is-EVERYTHING-die-hard-racers
                > really ever care about the 1/100th of a knot difference such-n-such
                > a gadget may or may not provide when out sailing/racing.
                snip
              • skiffsalor2000
                Sailors, I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan. The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to get
                Message 7 of 12 , May 14, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sailors,

                  I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan.
                  The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to
                  get back into it. My question - what is a simple approach to improving
                  the sheet? Hanging on to that line - there has to be a good simple way
                  to rig the sheet so that it can be quickly released saving disaster. I
                  bought a couple of simple blocks but not real sure what to do with them.

                  Mike




                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                  <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either
                  doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth
                  fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any
                  difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest
                  that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix.
                  Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the
                  designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the
                  shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own
                  boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I
                  think I'd try PCB's way first.
                  >
                  > John T
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Eric OHiggins
                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
                  > cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
                  > thots.
                  > The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
                  > on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
                  > or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
                  > I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
                  > instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
                  > sprit one on each side of the sail.
                  > The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
                  > you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
                  > structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
                  > snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
                  > should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
                  > leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
                  > sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
                  > I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
                  > and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
                  > Eric
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                  dead horses
                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                  posts
                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                  Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS Boating safety Boating magazine Alaska outdoors
                  > Great outdoors
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  > a.. Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date:
                  3/31/2006
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • John and Kathy Trussell
                  Mike, PCB frequently leaves details up to the builder, and I m not sure how you have the sheet rigged now. A traditional approach is to install a rack with a
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 14, 2006
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                    Mike,

                    PCB frequently leaves details up to the builder, and I'm not sure how you have the sheet rigged now.

                    A traditional approach is to install a rack with a pin or hook on the inboard side of either gunwale. The sheet is hooked around the pin and the pin takes the strain of the sheet. It is, of course, necessary to move the sheet to the opposite pin on each tack. The location of the pin fore and aft has some impact on sail performance, so some experimentation is needed.

                    Another approach is to mount a block on the rudder head. Run the sheet through the block and wind it a turn or two around the tiller (you want a spiral effect). Hold the sheet with the hand you are steering with--squeezing the sheet against the tiller. Friction between the sheet and the tiller takes the strain, but the sheet can be released instantly by relaxing your hand. NOTE: Sheeting to the rudder head can exert an upward force on the rudder; perhaps enough to unship it. This is a really bad thing when you are under sail. The solution is to make or buy a metal clip which will keep the pintle from rising.

                    If you really want to get complicated, check out local one design sailboats (Lightnings are about the most Rube Goldberg arangements, but they work) and copy what you think might work for you.

                    With a fairly small sail, I would try to keep it simple first.

                    John T

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: skiffsalor2000
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 8:41 AM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies



                    Sailors,

                    I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan.
                    The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to
                    get back into it. My question - what is a simple approach to improving
                    the sheet? Hanging on to that line - there has to be a good simple way
                    to rig the sheet so that it can be quickly released saving disaster. I
                    bought a couple of simple blocks but not real sure what to do with them.

                    Mike




                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                    <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either
                    doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth
                    fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any
                    difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest
                    that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix.
                    Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the
                    designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the
                    shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own
                    boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I
                    think I'd try PCB's way first.
                    >
                    > John T
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Eric OHiggins
                    > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
                    > cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
                    > thots.
                    > The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
                    > on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
                    > or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
                    > I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
                    > instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
                    > sprit one on each side of the sail.
                    > The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
                    > you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
                    > structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
                    > snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
                    > should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
                    > leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
                    > sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
                    > I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
                    > and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
                    > Eric
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                    dead horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                    posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                    Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS Boating safety Boating magazine Alaska outdoors
                    > Great outdoors
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
                    ------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    > a.. Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
                    >
                    > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
                    ------
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date:
                    3/31/2006
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >








                    Bolger rules!!!
                    - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                    - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                    - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                    Great outdoors


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