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Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies

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  • Bruce Hallman
    A Dovekie is cool, but a Shearwater is a rare thing! With only just a few ever built. This is a broken record, of course, but I (we) would love to see
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 2, 2006
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      A Dovekie is cool, but a Shearwater is a rare thing! With only just a
      few ever built. This is a broken record, of course, but I (we) would
      love to see photos.
    • Eric OHiggins
      As usual, watching this space has caused my brain cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the thots. The brainwave here concerns wishbones --
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
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        As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
        cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
        thots.
        The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
        on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
        or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
        I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
        instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
        sprit one on each side of the sail.
        The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
        you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
        structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
        snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
        should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
        leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
        sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
        I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
        and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
        Eric


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      • Mike French
        A wishbone that mimics a symmetrical airfoil ie a fully rounded leading edge need not be particularly strong. The snotter attaches to the inside of the curve
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
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          A wishbone that mimics a symmetrical airfoil ie a fully rounded
          leading edge need not be particularly strong. The snotter attaches to
          the inside of the curve at the centre and leads back to a block on the
          leading edge of the mast, thence down to a deck block and to a cleat.
          The wishbone loads are mostly compression.
          The snotter also functions as an outhaul and a cunningham, driving the
          wishbone aft and down to flatten the sail and tighten the leach and
          foot simultaneously. A 420 sq. ft. Nonsuch sail could be adjusted
          without a winch by simply luffing. Its wishbone was 25 feet long of
          2.5-3 inch dia. aluminum and probably weighed close to 80 lbs. it hung
          from 2 fixed length wire pennnants attached to each side of the mast.

          Mike

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Eric OHiggins <chaemeocyparis@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
          > cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
          > thots.
          > The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
          > on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
          > or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
          > I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
          > instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
          > sprit one on each side of the sail.
          > The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
          > you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
          > structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
          > snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
          > should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
          > leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
          > sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
          > I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
          > and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
          > Eric
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
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          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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        • John and Kathy Trussell
          I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn t exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn t worth fooling with. I
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
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            I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try PCB's way first.

            John T
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Eric OHiggins
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
            Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies



            As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
            cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
            thots.
            The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
            on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
            or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
            I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
            instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
            sprit one on each side of the sail.
            The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
            you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
            structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
            snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
            should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
            leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
            sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
            I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
            and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
            Eric


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          • Douglas Pollard
            A straight sprit can be about 1/2 the diameter and weight of a curved sprit. Since most of the load is compression. The curved boom on Wolftrap weighed 16 lbs
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 3, 2006
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              A straight sprit can be about 1/2 the diameter and weight of a curved sprit. Since most of the load is compression. The curved boom on Wolftrap weighed 16 lbs was 21/2 dia. and the straight sprit was about 1 3/4 in. in diameter it was 1/16 thick and weighed 7 lb. The main was 425 sq Ft. There was a 16 ft top yard that stuck 10 ft above the top of the mast it only weighed 6 lbs. The loads are pretty light on the spars other than the mast on a sprit rig. I find it amazing and I had no idea that the bow weighs 80 lbs on a Nonsuch. That's 40 pounds per side and that is almost 3 times the weight of the curved sprit on Wolftrap. Seems like huge overkill to me.
              Doug
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John and Kathy Trussell
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 8:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies


              I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try PCB's way first.

              John T
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Eric OHiggins
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies



              As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
              cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
              thots.
              The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
              on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
              or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
              I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
              instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
              sprit one on each side of the sail.
              The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
              you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
              structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
              snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
              should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
              leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
              sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
              I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
              and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
              Eric


              __________________________________________________
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              Bolger rules!!!
              - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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              Great outdoors


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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              Bolger rules!!!
              - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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              a.. Visit your group "bolger" on the web.

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Peter Lenihan
              ... either doesn t exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn t worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn t tell any
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 4, 2006
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                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                >
                > I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which
                either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it
                isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and
                couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and
                the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and,
                if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a
                boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm
                right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution
                are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to
                have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try
                PCB's way first.


                I'll second that(!) and add that on my ex-Micro,LESTAT, I can't
                recall ever noticing a deficiency on one tack or the other over
                several years of sailing in all sorts of weather but made a point of
                keeping the mizzen sprit-boom rigged on the opposite side,relative
                to the main sprit-boom...just is case there was a difference :-)
                Besides,only multi-millionaire-winning-is-EVERYTHING-die-hard-racers
                really ever care about the 1/100th of a knot difference such-n-such
                a gadget may or may not provide when out sailing/racing.
                Considering that most of us are limited in the number of hours worth
                of leisure time we have to burn,it would appear better to introduce
                devices which will actually keep us "out there" longer.....as in the
                cell phone call to our spouse,"Hi honey,it looks like I'm gonna be a
                bit late coming home since the wind is slowly dying and is coming
                over the "wrong" side of the sprit-boom.....again.....love ya,bye!"
                Beyond that,most of us have as our destination,when we head out for
                a sail,the very same point of departure! Why rush to get back
                there,unless your really do not like spending time on the water! :-D


                Sincerely,

                Peter Lenihan,looking forward to the day when I can call work and
                say,"Hi boss,can't come in today,there is hardly any wind,not a
                cloud in the sky,lots-o-beer left in the cooler,girlfriend gettin'
                frisky and the darn motor won't shut itself off!"...from along the
                shores of the rainy St.Lawrence...............
              • Lincoln Ross
                Tech dinghy racers on the Charles River very often have no money but care a lot about 1/100th of a knot. Given my abilities, I needed at least 1/10 knot. Saw a
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 4, 2006
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                  Tech dinghy racers on the Charles River very often have no money but
                  care a lot about 1/100th of a knot. Given my abilities, I needed at
                  least 1/10 knot. Saw a lot of transoms racing with that crowd.

                  If you plotted the courses of those who crossed the line just after
                  the signal, it would look like a diagram of how to knit a sweater.
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
                  snip
                  > Besides,only multi-millionaire-winning-is-EVERYTHING-die-hard-racers
                  > really ever care about the 1/100th of a knot difference such-n-such
                  > a gadget may or may not provide when out sailing/racing.
                  snip
                • skiffsalor2000
                  Sailors, I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan. The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to get
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 14, 2006
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                    Sailors,

                    I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan.
                    The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to
                    get back into it. My question - what is a simple approach to improving
                    the sheet? Hanging on to that line - there has to be a good simple way
                    to rig the sheet so that it can be quickly released saving disaster. I
                    bought a couple of simple blocks but not real sure what to do with them.

                    Mike




                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                    <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either
                    doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth
                    fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any
                    difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest
                    that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix.
                    Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the
                    designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the
                    shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own
                    boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I
                    think I'd try PCB's way first.
                    >
                    > John T
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Eric OHiggins
                    > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
                    > cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
                    > thots.
                    > The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
                    > on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
                    > or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
                    > I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
                    > instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
                    > sprit one on each side of the sail.
                    > The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
                    > you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
                    > structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
                    > snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
                    > should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
                    > leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
                    > sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
                    > I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
                    > and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
                    > Eric
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                    dead horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                    posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                    Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS Boating safety Boating magazine Alaska outdoors
                    > Great outdoors
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
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                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • John and Kathy Trussell
                    Mike, PCB frequently leaves details up to the builder, and I m not sure how you have the sheet rigged now. A traditional approach is to install a rack with a
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 14, 2006
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                      Mike,

                      PCB frequently leaves details up to the builder, and I'm not sure how you have the sheet rigged now.

                      A traditional approach is to install a rack with a pin or hook on the inboard side of either gunwale. The sheet is hooked around the pin and the pin takes the strain of the sheet. It is, of course, necessary to move the sheet to the opposite pin on each tack. The location of the pin fore and aft has some impact on sail performance, so some experimentation is needed.

                      Another approach is to mount a block on the rudder head. Run the sheet through the block and wind it a turn or two around the tiller (you want a spiral effect). Hold the sheet with the hand you are steering with--squeezing the sheet against the tiller. Friction between the sheet and the tiller takes the strain, but the sheet can be released instantly by relaxing your hand. NOTE: Sheeting to the rudder head can exert an upward force on the rudder; perhaps enough to unship it. This is a really bad thing when you are under sail. The solution is to make or buy a metal clip which will keep the pintle from rising.

                      If you really want to get complicated, check out local one design sailboats (Lightnings are about the most Rube Goldberg arangements, but they work) and copy what you think might work for you.

                      With a fairly small sail, I would try to keep it simple first.

                      John T

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: skiffsalor2000
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 8:41 AM
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies



                      Sailors,

                      I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan.
                      The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to
                      get back into it. My question - what is a simple approach to improving
                      the sheet? Hanging on to that line - there has to be a good simple way
                      to rig the sheet so that it can be quickly released saving disaster. I
                      bought a couple of simple blocks but not real sure what to do with them.

                      Mike




                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                      <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either
                      doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth
                      fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any
                      difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest
                      that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix.
                      Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the
                      designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the
                      shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own
                      boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I
                      think I'd try PCB's way first.
                      >
                      > John T
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Eric OHiggins
                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
                      > cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
                      > thots.
                      > The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
                      > on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
                      > or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
                      > I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
                      > instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
                      > sprit one on each side of the sail.
                      > The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
                      > you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
                      > structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
                      > snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
                      > should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
                      > leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
                      > sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
                      > I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
                      > and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
                      > Eric
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Bolger rules!!!
                      > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                      dead horses
                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                      posts
                      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                      Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SPONSORED LINKS Boating safety Boating magazine Alaska outdoors
                      > Great outdoors
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
                      ------
                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      >
                      > a.. Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
                      >
                      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
                      ------
                      >
                      >
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date:
                      3/31/2006
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >








                      Bolger rules!!!
                      - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                      - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                      Great outdoors


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                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/338 - Release Date: 5/12/2006


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