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Re: Stain on plywood under polyester

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  • David
    Bobby, I ve been a professional woodworker for (mumble, mumble) decades, and currently own a small architectural millwork shop. One thing I ve learned is that
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 3, 2006
      Bobby,

      I've been a professional woodworker for (mumble, mumble) decades, and
      currently own a small architectural millwork shop. One thing I've
      learned is that finishing systems - or any mixing of chemicals - can
      be finicky to the point of being disasterous. I have no firm evidence
      that such a finish schedule as you're describing wouldn't work, but
      I'm skeptical. You don't say: what wood you'd be staining; what type
      of stain you'd be using; what weight fiberglass cloth; which polyester
      resin (I won't restart the discussion about polyester vs. epoxy - but,
      again, I'm skeptical); etc. In these situations, the details are
      important.

      So, I see two choices. First, do a bit of research to establish that
      your scheme will work... or how it needs to be modified to work.
      Second, assume it'll be fine, and proceed - knowing that you may be
      making a big mess to either live with or clean up. It may turn out to
      be good for decades, I truly don't know - but my "watch out" bone is
      twitching.

      Well then, Mr. Opinionated... what would you do? OK, the biggest
      concern is the stain making it difficult for your cloth/resin to stick
      to the wood. I'd either skip it, or use a dye-stain (in either alcohol
      or water). Oil based stain would be my very distant last choice.
      Either way, I'd let it dry for a long time. Days. Second concern is
      the polyester resin. It's not known for adhering well in applications
      such as yours. Any stain you use has the potential to further degrade
      the adhesion. I'd use epoxy resin. There's more, but you can research
      by reading back thru the previous posts if you want to. Or, read Jim
      Michalak's newsletters. Or ask the same question at other forums.
      Or... just go for it. Whatever you choose, good luck!

      Cheers,
      David Graybeal
      Portland, OR

      "Of the live mariners, there are but two categores; the novices and
      the pessimists"

      *******************


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "txsailor37" <txsailor37@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am planning on getting the deck down on my Bobcat this weekend. I
      was considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyester
      resin) and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish. Does
      anyone see a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in a
      stain???
      > Is there a water based stain? Oil based? .... I am not sure as to
      what would work best under the polyester resin. I would appreciate
      any help.
      >
      > Thanks Bobby
    • Nels
      ... was ... resin) ... see ... stain??? ... what ... I would skip the staining and choose a top varnish that creates the finish tones I want. Use an external
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 3, 2006
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "txsailor37" <txsailor37@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am planning on getting the deck down on my Bobcat this weekend. I
        was
        > considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyester
        resin)
        > and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish. Does anyone
        see
        > a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in a
        stain???
        > Is there a water based stain? Oil based? .... I am not sure as to
        what
        > would work best under the polyester resin. I would appreciate any
        > help.
        >
        > Thanks Bobby

        I would skip the staining and choose a top varnish that creates the
        finish tones I want. Use an external varnish with UV inhibitors that
        is compitable with polyester resin.

        Be sure to remove any waxes from the polyester - or amines if you
        choose epoxy - before varnishing.

        Nels
      • FRANK Coletta
        Bobby, I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining it. I am using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that it was necessary to
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 4, 2006
          Bobby,

          I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining it. I am
          using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that it was necessary to
          use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The oil-based stain would either not
          stick or degrade the epoxy. I am not sure if that also applies to polyester
          resin.

          Regards,
          Frank Coletta
          Auburn, WA


          >From: "txsailor37" <txsailor37@...>
          >Reply-To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          >To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [bolger] Stain on plywood under polyester
          >Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 04:06:56 -0000
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >I am planning on getting the deck down on my Bobcat this weekend. I was
          >
          >considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyester resin)
          >
          >and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish.�� Does anyone see
          >
          >a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in a stain???��
          >
          >Is there a water based stain?� Oil based? .... I am not sure as to what
          >
          >would work best under� the polyester resin.�� I would appreciate any
          >
          >help.
          >
          >
          >
          >Thanks Bobby
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • jjoven_49
          ... it. I am using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that it was necessary to use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The oil-based stain would
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 5, 2006
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@...> wrote:

            > I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining
            it. I am using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that it
            was necessary to use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The
            oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Frank Coletta
            > Auburn, WA


            Not so, read West System epoxy over stains adhesion test:

            http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/1252240&mode=thread

            With adequate drying time oil based stains work well too.
          • David
            I m gonna jump in here again. It s true that the West test showed that most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However... there were issues.
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 6, 2006
              I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
              most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
              there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
              after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
              us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
              stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
              allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
              of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
              all? Some worked only after a longer than normal drytime - I'd guess
              to allow more of the volatile materials which were impeding adhesion
              to outgas. Are the remaining volatiles going to compromise the
              long-term adhesion? Would other brands or formulations of epoxy
              experience different results? Better? Worse?

              My conclusion - even after being reminded of the West test results -
              is the same. If you want to be safe using stain in your composite
              schedule, use a dyestain. Safest is one in water (though that means
              dealing with the minor irritation of grain raising). A close second
              for safety would be the dyestain in alcohol. Smartest of all might be
              no stain at all. Then, there are no subsequent color-matching issues -
              if (when?) a bit of touchup to the finish is required.

              This is just one person's perspective - heavily colored by a distaste
              for redoing tasks, and a severe lack of time for maintainance. I'd
              rather be on the water. If you have more time & inclination to putter,
              and don't mind the prospect of possibly cleaning up a messy experiment
              - cause you've learned something from it - oil stain might work fine
              for you.

              Cheers,
              David Graybeal
              Portland, OR.

              "As I said before, I never repeat myself"

              ******************

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "jjoven_49" <hoz49@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@> wrote:
              >
              > > I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining
              > it. I am using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that
              it was necessary to use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The
              > oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > Frank Coletta
              > > Auburn, WA
              >***********************
              >
              > Not so, read West System epoxy over stains adhesion test:>
              > http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/1252240&mode=thread
              >
              > With adequate drying time oil based stains work well too.
            • FRANK Coletta
              Thank you for the information.
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 6, 2006
                Thank you for the information.


                >From: "jjoven_49" <hoz49@...>
                >Reply-To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                >To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [bolger] Re: Stain on plywood under EPOXY (WAS polyester)
                >Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:26:13 -0000
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > > I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining
                >
                >it.� I am� using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth.� I learned that it
                >
                >was necessary to� use water-based stain for epoxy resin.� The
                >
                >oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.�
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Regards,
                >
                > > Frank Coletta
                >
                > > Auburn, WA
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Not so, read West System epoxy over stains adhesion test:
                >
                >
                >
                >http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/1252240&mode=thread
                >
                >
                >
                >With adequate drying time oil based stains work well too.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Bolger rules!!!
                >
                >- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!� Please!
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                >
                >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                >
                >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                >
                >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                >(978) 282-1349
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              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                A solution may be to add a stain pigment to your varnish over the glass to give it the desired color. Jon ... staining ... it
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 6, 2006
                  A solution may be to add a stain pigment to your varnish over the
                  glass to give it the desired color.

                  Jon


                  >
                  > >From: "jjoven_49" <hoz49@...>
                  > >Reply-To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: [bolger] Re: Stain on plywood under EPOXY (WAS polyester)
                  > >Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:26:13 -0000
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering
                  staining
                  > >
                  > >it.  I am  using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth.  I learned that
                  it
                  > >
                  > >was necessary to  use water-based stain for epoxy resin.  The
                  > >
                  > >oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy. 
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > > Frank Coletta
                  > >
                  > > > Auburn, WA
                • David
                  Jon, An excellent suggestion (what else would one expect from a sternwheel fan and an Oregon boy) That process is called toning . You apply tinted
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 6, 2006
                    Jon,

                    An excellent suggestion (what else would one expect from a sternwheel
                    fan and an Oregon boy) <LOL> That process is called "toning". You
                    apply tinted topcoat (in this case varnish) until the desired color &
                    tone are achieved. Subsequent coats of varnish are applied untinted.
                    The only issue then becomes the one of later maintainance & touchups.
                    The more clear layers on top of the tinted ones the better. Then if
                    you keep up the brightwork maintainance, hopefully you can avoid
                    trying to match color due to a scuff or such that penetrates into the
                    tinted coats. Color matching a toned finish is Very Difficult. If a
                    bunch of repairs are made, it can end up looking a bit like a
                    splotchy attempt at a camo finish <G> If the brightwork is babied a
                    little in use, and regularly refreshed (see Ms. Witt's books for
                    details), such an approach could work quite well.

                    Cheers,
                    David Graybeal
                    Portland, OR.

                    "In a consumer society, there are inevitably two kinds of slaves: the
                    prisoners of addiction, and the prisoners of envy" -- Ivan Illich

                    *******************

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > A solution may be to add a stain pigment to your varnish over the
                    > glass to give it the desired color.
                    >
                    > Jon
                  • Clyde Wisner
                    I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe dye, tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some chairlegs. Later I
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 7, 2006
                      I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe dye,
                      tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some
                      chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and thwarts
                      in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered with
                      epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs with
                      a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde


                      David wrote:

                      >I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
                      >most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
                      >there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
                      >after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
                      >us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
                      >stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
                      >allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
                      >of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
                      >
                      >
                    • Clyde Wisner
                      Forgot to mention brown leather shoe dye vs polish and tolulene is a very hot solvent. Clyde ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 7, 2006
                        Forgot to mention "brown" leather shoe dye vs polish and tolulene is a
                        very hot solvent. Clyde
                        Clyde Wisner wrote:

                        >I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe dye,
                        >tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some
                        >chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and thwarts
                        >in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered with
                        >epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs with
                        >a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde
                        >
                        >
                        >David wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
                        >>most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
                        >>there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
                        >>after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
                        >>us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
                        >>stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
                        >>allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
                        >>of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Bolger rules!!!
                        >- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                        >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                        >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bob Chamberland
                        ... with ... dead horses ... posts ... 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 7, 2006
                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Forgot to mention "brown" leather shoe dye vs polish and tolulene is a
                          > very hot solvent. Clyde
                          > Clyde Wisner wrote:
                          >
                          > >I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe dye,
                          > >tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some
                          > >chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and thwarts
                          > >in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered with
                          > >epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs
                          with
                          > >a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >David wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
                          > >>most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
                          > >>there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
                          > >>after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
                          > >>us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
                          > >>stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
                          > >>allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
                          > >>of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Bolger rules!!!
                          > >- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                          > >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                          dead horses
                          > >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                          posts
                          > >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                          > >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • JJ Johnson
                          I caught something on the discovery Channel last night that might be of interest to the whole community. Just in passing as they were discussing the Titanic,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 9, 2006
                            I caught something on the discovery Channel last night that might be
                            of interest to the whole community. Just in passing as they were
                            discussing the Titanic, they mentioned that the items that last best
                            after almost 100 years underwater where shoes, purses, belts and
                            other things made from leather. Maybe we should start sheathing our
                            boats with leather so they will last longer.....hehehehe

                            Fair Windas and Smooth Sailing
                            JJ

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe
                            dye,
                            > tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off
                            some
                            > chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and
                            thwarts
                            > in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered
                            with
                            > epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs
                            with
                            > a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde
                            >
                            >
                            > David wrote:
                            >
                            > >I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed
                            that
                            > >most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
                            > >there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
                            > >after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results
                            leave
                            > >us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample
                            of
                            > >stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
                            > >allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it
                            representative
                            > >of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
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