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Bolger wikipedia index

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  • Bruce Hallman
    Graeme wrote: ... True, sort of. But the Yahoogroups license agreement basically says that Yahoo retains dictatorial power over everything we write. [I
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 28, 2006
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      Graeme wrote:>
      > The yahoogroup database approach has the advantages that any member
      > may add/amend entries keeping it current,

      True, sort of. But the Yahoogroups license agreement basically says that Yahoo
      retains dictatorial power over everything we write. [I don't like that.]

      Though, you have the right idea, this project must be collaborative
      and collective
      where everybody may add/amend entries to keep it current.

      Much better would be some online space that functions under a GPL
      'general public license' such at Wikipedia. There is already a start at an
      index of online references of Bolger boats, including the Yahoo photos
      and files see:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Bolger

      Which is GPL and collaborative. Indeed, even Phil Bolger and Susan
      Altenberger could make edits and contributions there if they had the
      time and the urge.

      Editing is simple and easy, allowed by anybody in good faith, including you!
      Those people who are willing can make contributions there.
    • Nels
      ... start at an ... photos ... Susan ... the ... including you! ... I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including the YONDER one. I still cannot
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 28, 2006
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
        > Much better would be some online space that functions under a GPL
        > 'general public license' such at Wikipedia. There is already a
        start at an
        > index of online references of Bolger boats, including the Yahoo
        photos
        > and files see:
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Bolger
        >
        > Which is GPL and collaborative. Indeed, even Phil Bolger and
        Susan
        > Altenberger could make edits and contributions there if they had
        the
        > time and the urge.
        >
        > Editing is simple and easy, allowed by anybody in good faith,
        including you!
        > Those people who are willing can make contributions there.

        I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including the
        YONDER one.

        I still cannot understand why a collaboration with the Leinwebers
        and Duckworks as well as Dynamite Payson would not be feasable?

        Duckworks already has and honorable track record, has MAIB
        available online and the Bolger articles could be offered as study
        plans at say $5 a piece through Paypal. Instant downloads and the
        editor and PCB could take a royalty or whatever they agree too.

        The designers that are presently onboard with Duckworks seem to be
        happy with the set-up there, and most are great admirers of Bolgers
        heritage in their designs.

        Chuck is even offering sail and epoxy kits for many of the designs
        they are offering. In addition there is a large inventory of
        hardware and equipment which is specifically designed for the small
        DIY builder.

        Then it could be tied in with the Bolger yahoo groups so that
        everyone could benefit from each others experiences, dreams, and
        exchange information, without bothering anbody's work load.

        To me it would actually take the pressure off Phil and Susanne as
        the information is already available for the casual dreamer to
        pursue rather than trying to contact them personally.

        Sure, they had a bad experience and got ripped off by some
        individuals who did not honor their commitments.

        Reality is, are they now honoring theirs?

        Nels
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... Feel free to fix them. ... Bless them both, but both websites are for profit and some people [like me] are not willing to volunteer their services to
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 28, 2006
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          >I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including the
          >YONDER one.

          Feel free to fix them.

          > I still cannot understand why a collaboration with the Leinwebers
          > and Duckworks as well as Dynamite Payson would not be feasable?

          Bless them both, but both websites are 'for profit' and some people
          [like me] are not willing to volunteer their services to 'for profit'
          enterprises. No offense intended.

          Not to mention that 'fair use' of copyrighted materials are
          more restrained by 'for profit' concerns, than not.

          > Reality is, are [Phil and Susanne] now honoring theirs?

          It is best that we reserve judgement
          without knowing the details of their agreements.

          All in all, I think that commissioning an artist
          to create a work of art [on schedule] is much
          different that hiring a draftsman to scribe up
          a variation on a stock design.

          I am reminded of the Robert Hunter lyric:

          "...we paid the storyteller off in gold,
          with hopes he would come back,
          but he could not be bought or sold."

          Who are we to criticise that PB&F chose
          to divert time from designing recreational
          boats, and instead chose to donate time
          to design an economical low powered
          'outside the box' commercial fishing vessel,
          in attempt to single handedly save the
          beleaguered New England fishery?
          [A noble cause.]
        • Nels
          ... I checked the link seeking information. So how am I supposed to fix them ? If I had the information to fix them, - I would not have clicked on the link
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 28, 2006
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
            >
            > >I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including the
            > >YONDER one.
            >
            > Feel free to fix them.

            I checked the link seeking information. So how am I supposed to "fix
            them"?

            If I had the information to fix them, - I would not have clicked on
            the link to seek the information:-)

            > > I still cannot understand why a collaboration with the Leinwebers
            > > and Duckworks as well as Dynamite Payson would not be feasable?
            >
            > Bless them both, but both websites are 'for profit' and some people
            > [like me] are not willing to volunteer their services to 'for
            profit' enterprises. No offense intended.

            I agree, and I was not suggesting volunteers in that regard. I was
            simply suggesting an alternative to the present situation that seems
            very confusing for prospective plan buyers.Or seekers of information.

            Bruce, I fully realize that nobody has offered their volunteer
            assistance more than you. And we are all grateful for that because
            you have filled in a tremendous gap in the amount of information
            that would have been otherwise lacking. And I am quite certain PCB&F
            appreciate your efforts as much as the rest of us.

            Is it viable to consider other alternatives? Perhaps it is perhaps
            it is not. That is one reason we support discussion groups.

            > Not to mention that 'fair use' of copyrighted materials are
            > more restrained by 'for profit' concerns, than not.
            >
            > > Reality is, are [Phil and Susanne] now honoring theirs?
            >
            > It is best that we reserve judgement
            > without knowing the details of their agreements.

            Granted, and my intention is not to pass judgement but to offer
            alternative avenues.
            >
            > All in all, I think that commissioning an artist
            > to create a work of art [on schedule] is much
            > different that hiring a draftsman to scribe up
            > a variation on a stock design.
            >
            > I am reminded of the Robert Hunter lyric:
            >
            > "...we paid the storyteller off in gold,
            > with hopes he would come back,
            > but he could not be bought or sold."

            I have commissioned art and will continue to. All of my commissions
            have been honored to date. (One hangs above my head as I type.)
            Perhaps the results have not been entirely up to my expectations but
            that is a part of the artists perogative. So you seem to be
            suggesting that PCB&F are artists and not nautical architects? So if
            I have commisioned a Wandervogel I have to accept their
            interpretation - a Birdwatcher? And feel grateful and satisfied?

            >
            > Who are we to criticise that PB&F chose
            > to divert time from designing recreational
            > boats, and instead chose to donate time
            > to design an economical low powered
            > 'outside the box' commercial fishing vessel,
            > in attempt to single handedly save the
            > beleaguered New England fishery?
            > [A noble cause.]
            >
            No doubt a noble cause but is not accepting an amount of money for a
            commission a form of "made for profit" enterprise as well as a form
            of contract - legal and binding?

            This is not intended as criticism but simply good business practice.
            To accept money and then claim that I have more noble things to do
            does not really encourage more business in my view.

            I would have to wonder how many members in this group are lining up
            to commission any work from a group we all deeply admire for their
            expertise and yet are wary we ever get results - and how many will
            look at the Duckorks alternatives?

            Sincerely,

            Nels
          • Bruce Hallman
            ... I just got a chance to diagnose the problem and it appears that Yahoo puts a bomb in their URL s that prevents direct linking. In other words, the link
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 28, 2006
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              > > >I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including the
              > > >YONDER one.
              > >
              > > Feel free to fix them.
              >
              > I checked the link seeking information. So how am I supposed to "fix
              > them"?

              I just got a chance to diagnose the problem and it appears that Yahoo
              puts a bomb in their URL's that prevents direct linking. In other
              words, the link works from my PC, but apparently not from yours.

              Good for Yahoo profit, I suppose, but reason enough to not put our
              eggs in that basket. Migrating the 'stored things' away from Yahoo
              makes sense in light of this.

              One way to 'fix it' would be to put the image somewhere else,
              other than in a Yahoo group, and then adjust the wikipedia
              link to point there.

              > ...is not accepting an amount of money for a
              > commission a form of "made for profit" enterprise as well as a form
              > of contract - legal and binding?

              I (we) don't know the details of the contract.

              Regardless, I doubt that any contract can
              compel a creative mind to create on cue.
            • graeme19121984
              ... I hear what you re saying Bruce. An independent community run non- profit site would be good. An issue with Wikipedia is that folks would seem obliged to
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 1 8:17 PM
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                >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:

                I hear what you're saying Bruce. An independent community run non-
                profit site would be good. An issue with Wikipedia is that folks
                would seem obliged to learn HTML to provide new contributions, edit,
                and add links etc. I feel a fair degree of resistance personally to
                investing the time and energy into such a learning task. I probably
                could if I really had to, but at the moment the "H" in HTML might as
                well stand for "huh?" (said as the eyes glaze over I'm afraid).

                You're right to point out that if Yahoo site content became
                inaccessible for any reason we'd be at a loss. As an Index elsewhere
                (say, Wikipedia) to yahoo bolgergroups' files, photos, links, and
                threads would also lose currency it may be prudent to back-up all
                those "stored things" as you suggest. The yahoo(groups) format is
                one that folks are used to, and it's easy to pick up. Is there any
                move at Wiki to provide a similar way for contributors to use the
                site? I've seen news and blog type sites adopt commercially
                available software that allow IT-challenged people easier
                involvement. Yahoo, Microsoft, Google etc. don't seem to have a
                monopoly on methods of interacting for people without HTML skills.


                By the way that bomb must also prevent yahoogroups' content being
                displayed off-line. Only individually viewed posts are available to
                me when off line, no expanded batched messages, files, or photos.

                Graeme


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
                >
                > > > >I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including
                the
                > > > >YONDER one.
                > > >
                > > > Feel free to fix them.
                > >
                > > I checked the link seeking information. So how am I supposed
                to "fix
                > > them"?
                >
                > I just got a chance to diagnose the problem and it appears that
                Yahoo
                > puts a bomb in their URL's that prevents direct linking. In other
                > words, the link works from my PC, but apparently not from yours.
                >
                > Good for Yahoo profit, I suppose, but reason enough to not put our
                > eggs in that basket. Migrating the 'stored things' away from Yahoo
                > makes sense in light of this.
                >
                > One way to 'fix it' would be to put the image somewhere else,
                > other than in a Yahoo group, and then adjust the wikipedia
                > link to point there.
                >
                > > ...is not accepting an amount of money for a
                > > commission a form of "made for profit" enterprise as well as a
                form
                > > of contract - legal and binding?
                >
                > I (we) don't know the details of the contract.
                >
                > Regardless, I doubt that any contract can
                > compel a creative mind to create on cue.
                >
              • Bruce Hallman
                ... Wikipedia doesn t require HTML. Adding links is as simple as putting [[square backets]] around the URL. And more, Wikipedia is resiliant, you can t
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 1 9:09 PM
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                  > profit site would be good. An issue with Wikipedia is that folks
                  > would seem obliged to learn HTML to provide new contributions, edit,
                  > and add links etc.

                  Wikipedia doesn't require HTML. Adding links is as simple as
                  putting [[square backets]] around the URL. And more, Wikipedia
                  is resiliant, you can't break it. To edit a page, click 'edit this page',
                  located at the top of each page. It really is as easy as using
                  a word processor.

                  > The yahoo(groups) format is
                  > one that folks are used to, and it's easy to pick up.

                  I don't suggest that we move the discussion group. It is just the
                  file / photo storage that is hobbled by the Yahoo inablity to
                  provide URL links to files and photos.
                • Gene T
                  Reading your last sentence... Will the links section of the group provide a third place to access pictures after photos and files . Is there a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 2 6:22 AM
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                    Reading your last sentence... Will the "links" section of the group provide a third place to access pictures after "photos" and "files". Is there a shortcomming to that Yahoo facility?

                    Gene T.

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2006 12:09:54 AM
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger wikipedia index

                    > profit site would be good. An issue with Wikipedia is that folks
                    > would seem obliged to learn HTML to provide new contributions, edit,
                    > and add links etc.

                    Wikipedia doesn't require HTML. Adding links is as simple as
                    putting [[square backets]] around the URL. And more, Wikipedia
                    is resiliant, you can't break it. To edit a page, click 'edit this page',
                    located at the top of each page. It really is as easy as using
                    a word processor.

                    > The yahoo(groups) format is
                    > one that folks are used to, and it's easy to pick up.

                    I don't suggest that we move the discussion group. It is just the
                    file / photo storage that is hobbled by the Yahoo inablity to
                    provide URL links to files and photos.






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... The Yahoo Links section works, but it is not as versatile at Wikipedia s by far. Also, I oppose donating my time to a for profit concern like Yahoo.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 2 6:53 AM
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                      > Reading your last sentence... Will the "links" section of the group provide a third place to access pictures after "photos" and "files". Is there a shortcomming to that Yahoo facility?
                      >
                      > Gene T.

                      The Yahoo Links section works, but it is not as versatile at
                      Wikipedia's by far. Also, I oppose donating my time to a 'for profit'
                      concern like Yahoo. Read their fine print, they take license to what
                      we write.
                    • Bruce Fountain
                      ... Yahoo ... The problem is that yahoo requires that you be logged in to access the files and photos sections, although this is not a requirement to access
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 2 3:42 PM
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                        >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
                        > I just got a chance to diagnose the problem and it appears that
                        Yahoo
                        > puts a bomb in their URL's that prevents direct linking. In other
                        > words, the link works from my PC, but apparently not from yours.

                        The problem is that yahoo requires that you be logged in to
                        access the files and photos sections, although this is not a
                        requirement to access the messages.

                        I know that public/member access to the messages is a configurable
                        setting for the group, is it possible to make the other sections
                        public?

                        Bruce Fountain
                        Systems Engineer
                        Union Switch & Signal
                        Perth, Western Australia



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Máximo
                        ... A year ago, I suggest to start a small website with a database of Bolger designs, description, size, photos, study-plans, links, commentaries, etc. The
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 2 4:07 PM
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                          > The problem is that yahoo requires that you be logged in to

                          A year ago, I suggest to start a small website with a database of Bolger
                          designs, description, size, photos, study-plans, links, commentaries, etc.

                          The idea (except for Stefan, Curtis and a few others) didn t get much
                          response from the Bolger community. Nobody send data, photos or anything.
                          The site would be free, you don t need to register, and if I get a donation
                          for hosting, is a plus (but not mandatory) I think people dislike this, I
                          dont know.

                          Even Bruce tried to start a flickr group for more photo storage, also
                          Wikipedia, and I see that people didn t like also very much neither of them.

                          As an example, I start a free small website of a local class of sailboat
                          from the 70s "Alpha 25", and I have a lot of response from the owners, who
                          send me photos, technical data, etc (In spanish)
                          http://www.alpha25.com.ar

                          I offer again my colaboration as a web developer, to start some kind of
                          website that contains an "index" of the 600+ Bolger designs.

                          Regards, Máximo.
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Great, do it. That is a beautiful thing about the Web, is that content in far away places can be linked together easily.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 2 9:29 PM
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                            > I offer again my colaboration as a web developer, to start some kind of
                            > website that contains an "index" of the 600+ Bolger designs.
                            >
                            > Regards, Máximo.

                            Great, do it. That is a beautiful thing about the Web, is that
                            content in far away places can be linked together easily.
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