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psychology of boatbuilding

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  • Patrick Crockett
    I ve read that every man should do three things in his life: Have a son. Build a house. Build a boat. I have observed that perhaps 1/3 of all men have deramed
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 28, 2006
      I've read that every man should do three things in his life:

      Have a son.
      Build a house.
      Build a boat.

      I have observed that perhaps 1/3 of all men have deramed about building
      a boat someday. OTOH, it seems that very few women are even slightly
      interested. It appears that it may be the case that men are slightly
      more likely to be interested in some other creative endeavors (artists,
      authors, musicians) but if these differences exist, they are small
      enough to potentially be due to cultural influences. The difference in
      interest in boatbuilding is way too large to be due to culture, I think.
      So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests men but
      not women?

      Patrick
    • James Greene
      ... It gives us a place to get away from them, both in the workshop and on the water ... :) James Greene
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 30, 2006
        On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:26:26 -0500, Patrick Crockett wrote:
        > So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests men but
        > not women?

        It gives us a place to get away from them, both in the workshop and on the water ... :)

        James Greene
      • Peter Lenihan
        ... men but ... We are doers,builders and self actualize from the outside in.Women,God bless them all,are recievers,caregivers and self actualize from the
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 30, 2006
          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@n...> wrote:
          >> So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests
          men but
          > not women?
          >
          > Patrick

          We are doers,builders and self actualize from the outside in.Women,God
          bless them all,are recievers,caregivers and self actualize from the
          inside out.

          My knee jerk .02 cents worth..............



          Sincerely,


          Peter Lenihan,who is mighty darned pleased that there are NOT too many
          women boatbuilders out there for fear that I would not be able to
          impress them any longer with my own crazy building projects :-)
          >
        • craig o'donnell
          ... The possibilty of (a) getting wet and (b) tilting, if it s a sail boat. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 30, 2006
            >So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests men but
            >not women?

            The possibilty of (a) getting wet and (b) tilting, if it's a sail boat.
            --
            Craig O'Donnell
            Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
            <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
            The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
            The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
            Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
            American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
            Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
            _________________________________

            -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
            -- Macintosh kinda guy
            Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
            _________________________________

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Wesley Cox
            Very well said, Peter. You re a philosopher at heart? Or maybe your new first mate has been teaching you about the wonderful mysteries of women that most men
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 30, 2006
              Very well said, Peter. You're a philosopher at heart? Or maybe your
              new first mate has been teaching you about the wonderful mysteries of
              women that most men can't begin to understand because it isn't beer,
              sports or fishing? :=)


              Peter Lenihan wrote:

              >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@n...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>>So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests
              >>>
              >>>
              >men but
              >
              >
              >>not women?
              >>
              >>Patrick
              >>
              >>
              >
              >We are doers,builders and self actualize from the outside in.Women,God
              >bless them all,are recievers,caregivers and self actualize from the
              >inside out.
              >
              >My knee jerk .02 cents worth..............
              >
              >
              >
              >Sincerely,
              >
              >
              >Peter Lenihan,who is mighty darned pleased that there are NOT too many
              >women boatbuilders out there for fear that I would not be able to
              >impress them any longer with my own crazy building projects :-)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Harry James
              I don t know, maybe its a Pacific NW thing, but I know a lot of women boatbuilders. Granted I know more male ones but not at the ratios you gave. HJ ...
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 30, 2006
                I don't know, maybe its a Pacific NW thing, but I know a lot of women
                boatbuilders. Granted I know more male ones but not at the ratios you gave.

                HJ

                James Greene wrote:
                > On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:26:26 -0500, Patrick Crockett wrote:
                >
                >> So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests men but
                >> not women?
                >>
                >
                > It gives us a place to get away from them, both in the workshop and on the water ... :)
                >
                > James Greene
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Susan Davis
                ... FWIW, I ve encountered that reaction from more men that I have women. And if that were a valid reason, it would just push construction of paddling or power
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 31, 2006
                  Craig:
                  > >So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests
                  > >men but not women?
                  >
                  > The possibilty of (a) getting wet and (b) tilting, if it's a sail
                  > boat.

                  FWIW, I've encountered that reaction from more men that I have women.
                  And if that were a valid reason, it would just push construction of
                  paddling or power boats instead of sailboats....

                  --
                  Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                • robert pyfrom
                  Hi Susan, been waiting for you to get into this discussion! Comboat ... From: Susan Davis To: Sent: Tuesday,
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 31, 2006
                    Hi Susan, been waiting for you to get into this discussion!
                    Comboat
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Susan Davis" <futabachan@...>
                    To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 5:36 PM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: psychology of boatbuilding


                    > Craig:
                    > > >So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests
                    > > >men but not women?
                    > >
                    > > The possibilty of (a) getting wet and (b) tilting, if it's a sail
                    > > boat.
                    >
                    > FWIW, I've encountered that reaction from more men that I have women.
                    > And if that were a valid reason, it would just push construction of
                    > paddling or power boats instead of sailboats....
                    >
                    > --
                    > Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                    horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
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                  • Susan Davis
                    ... Not in my experience -- the artsy people I know are overwhelmingly skewed toward women. ... I m not so sure about that. Interest in building boats seems
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 31, 2006
                      Patrick Crockett:
                      > It appears that it may be the case that men are slightly
                      > more likely to be interested in some other creative endeavors
                      > (artists, authors, musicians)

                      Not in my experience -- the artsy people I know are overwhelmingly
                      skewed toward women.

                      > The difference in
                      > interest in boatbuilding is way too large to be due to culture, I
                      > think.

                      I'm not so sure about that. Interest in building boats seems fairly
                      similar between men and women among people who are interested and
                      willing to work with power tools, but there's a strong sense in the
                      dominant culture that power tools are a "guy thing" and that women who
                      use them are weird and vaguely threatening. Interest in owning boats
                      or other vehicles for recreation -- especially in owning more than
                      one! -- does seem to skew more toward men, which may further
                      contribute to the phenomenon.

                      There also may be a generational factor at work: many boatbuilding
                      people I've met have tended to skew older than the median, and younger
                      women are a bit less hamstrung by pre-feminist gender roles.

                      > So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests
                      > men but not women?

                      I'm not sure that interest, per se, is the limiting factor. Many
                      women who I've spoken with have just never had it occur to them that
                      they could successfully build a boat in a reasonable amount of time,
                      effort, and skill. I've gotten several female friends involved in
                      building boats of their own (or repairing existing boats) simply by
                      describing how easy instant boat and stitch-and-glue building methods
                      can be.

                      --
                      Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                    • Bill_Mercer
                      ... I think part of the problem (well, it s problem for me, see below) is that women just don t get trained in taking things apart, or putting things together,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 3, 2006
                        > I'm not sure that interest, per se, is the limiting factor. Many
                        > women who I've spoken with have just never had it occur to them that
                        > they could successfully build a boat in a reasonable amount of time,
                        > effort, and skill.

                        I think part of the problem (well, it's problem for me, see below) is
                        that women just don't get trained in taking things apart, or putting
                        things together, as kids. When I was growing up, my Dad was always
                        either fixing or building something, and I got the idea that that was
                        what I should do too, though it took me a while to get to building
                        anything besides models.

                        I've tried to interest my girlfriend in building boats, but even
                        though she's got a kayak kit about halfway done, with my help, she
                        just can't sustain interest in it and the thing has been languishing.
                        She's supportive of my interests though, and has been just as
                        interested as me in finding a house with decent workshop space
                        (nothing kills a project faster than freezing your $%#$ off under a
                        leaky carport roof in Portland, OR).

                        In fact though I've known a fair number of crafty women, I've really
                        only known one who would work on larger-scale projects (bigger than
                        paintings or jewelry) for fun.

                        Bill


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Patrick Crockett:
                        > > It appears that it may be the case that men are slightly
                        > > more likely to be interested in some other creative endeavors
                        > > (artists, authors, musicians)
                        >
                        > Not in my experience -- the artsy people I know are overwhelmingly
                        > skewed toward women.
                        >
                        > > The difference in
                        > > interest in boatbuilding is way too large to be due to culture, I
                        > > think.
                        >
                        > I'm not so sure about that. Interest in building boats seems fairly
                        > similar between men and women among people who are interested and
                        > willing to work with power tools, but there's a strong sense in the
                        > dominant culture that power tools are a "guy thing" and that women who
                        > use them are weird and vaguely threatening. Interest in owning boats
                        > or other vehicles for recreation -- especially in owning more than
                        > one! -- does seem to skew more toward men, which may further
                        > contribute to the phenomenon.
                        >
                        > There also may be a generational factor at work: many boatbuilding
                        > people I've met have tended to skew older than the median, and younger
                        > women are a bit less hamstrung by pre-feminist gender roles.
                        >
                        > > So -- what gives? What is it about building boats that interests
                        > > men but not women?
                        >
                        > I'm not sure that interest, per se, is the limiting factor. Many
                        > women who I've spoken with have just never had it occur to them that
                        > they could successfully build a boat in a reasonable amount of time,
                        > effort, and skill. I've gotten several female friends involved in
                        > building boats of their own (or repairing existing boats) simply by
                        > describing how easy instant boat and stitch-and-glue building methods
                        > can be.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                        >
                      • efemiket
                        ... Why not a daughter? Dad can teach her all about tools and woodworking etc, and maybe a lot more women would be boatbuilders. I suspect nature is at work as
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 8, 2006
                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I've read that every man should do three things in his life:
                          >
                          > Have a son.

                          Why not a daughter? Dad can teach her all about tools and woodworking
                          etc, and maybe a lot more women would be boatbuilders.

                          I suspect nature is at work as well as nurture, however, as anyone who
                          has a son and a daughter both can probably attest.

                          I recall that in grade 7 you could choose shop class or home economics
                          (cooking etc). In shop the male/female split was about 85/15; the
                          reverse in home ec. I still remember being kind of surprised at how
                          many girls wanted to take shop...I guess I assumed they would just all
                          go to home ec. I took shop, but I learned to cook too, later on!

                          Mike T


                          > Build a house.
                          > Build a boat.
                          >
                          >[snip]
                          > Patrick
                          >
                        • dnjost
                          My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head screwdriver by assisting
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                            My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and
                            learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head
                            screwdriver by assisting with the Micro. This is essential when you
                            are hanging upside down and inside out under the cockpit deck of the
                            Micro you are building.

                            Our most recent project is the construction of a cruising sail for
                            our 13' 6" Holt Enterprise! We ordered a kit from Sailrite, and have
                            been having a ball putting it together. So far, we have learned:
                            Patience, practice, sail shape, sewing machine maintenance, how to
                            recover from mistakes, and the joy and essential nature of teamwork
                            and cooperation. I really recommend working with Sailrite, they are
                            a fantastic company.

                            She is just as excited as I am about our upcoming order for
                            Birdwather II plans. We know that we can build every single
                            component of this boat. (well, maybe not the trailer, or motor. we
                            will leave that to the experts).

                            Happy building, include your kids.

                            David Jost
                          • Nels
                            ... With all due respect David, I think it is about time your daughter learned the facts of life . Put away those silly flat and phillips screwdrivers and
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and
                              > learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head
                              > screwdriver by assisting with the Micro. This is essential when you
                              > are hanging upside down and inside out under the cockpit deck of the
                              > Micro you are building.
                              >
                              With all due respect David, I think it is about time your daughter
                              learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and phillips
                              screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver

                              I believe they are called "square head" screws in the States and often
                              advertised through McFeely's. With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                              the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those other
                              old fashioned kind:-) Also work perfectly when using a cordless drill.

                              http://www.mcfeelys.com/

                              Nels
                            • Bill Kreamer
                              Has anyone stripped Robertson square drive screws as often as me? I switched to Torx ( star drive ) and I am now a happy camper. - Bill _____ From:
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                                Has anyone stripped Robertson square drive screws as often as me? I switched
                                to Torx ("star drive") and I am now a happy camper.

                                - Bill



                                _____

                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                Nels
                                Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:28 AM
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [bolger] Re: psychology of boatbuilding



                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and
                                > learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head
                                > screwdriver by assisting with the Micro. This is essential when you
                                > are hanging upside down and inside out under the cockpit deck of the
                                > Micro you are building.
                                >
                                With all due respect David, I think it is about time your daughter
                                learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and phillips
                                screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver

                                I believe they are called "square head" screws in the States and often
                                advertised through McFeely's. With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                                the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those other
                                old fashioned kind:-) Also work perfectly when using a cordless drill.

                                http://www.mcfeelys.com/

                                Nels






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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David
                                Bill, I own an Architectural Millwork firm. We use predominantly #2 Robertson drive screws. I ve never seen anyone strip one out. I have to say, that would
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                                  Bill,

                                  I own an Architectural Millwork firm. We use predominantly #2
                                  Robertson drive screws. I've never seen anyone strip one out. I have
                                  to say, that would take a bit of talent (did you ever have the
                                  nickname FullTiltBill?) <Grin>. We do use mostly cordless drills with
                                  adjustable clutch settings to avoid such mishaps. I've never used Torx
                                  screws in any quantity - are they (as they appear) significantly more
                                  resistant to stripping out the heads?

                                  Cheers,
                                  David Graybeal
                                  Portland, OR.

                                  "Moderation in all things, especially moderation"

                                  *********************

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Has anyone stripped Robertson square drive screws as often as me? I
                                  switched
                                  > to Torx ("star drive") and I am now a happy camper.
                                  >
                                  > - Bill
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of
                                  > Nels
                                  > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:28 AM
                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: psychology of boatbuilding
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and
                                  > > learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head
                                  > > screwdriver by assisting with the Micro. This is essential when you
                                  > > are hanging upside down and inside out under the cockpit deck of the
                                  > > Micro you are building.
                                  > >
                                  > With all due respect David, I think it is about time your daughter
                                  > learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and phillips
                                  > screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".
                                  >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver
                                  >
                                  > I believe they are called "square head" screws in the States and often
                                  > advertised through McFeely's. With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                                  > the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those other
                                  > old fashioned kind:-) Also work perfectly when using a cordless drill.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.mcfeelys.com/
                                  >
                                  > Nels
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
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                                • Nels
                                  ... have ... with ... Torx ... more ... I have never had the experience of ever stripping out a Robertson screw when driving it by hand in over 30 years of
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Bill,
                                    >
                                    > I own an Architectural Millwork firm. We use predominantly #2
                                    > Robertson drive screws. I've never seen anyone strip one out. I
                                    have
                                    > to say, that would take a bit of talent (did you ever have the
                                    > nickname FullTiltBill?) <Grin>. We do use mostly cordless drills
                                    with
                                    > adjustable clutch settings to avoid such mishaps. I've never used
                                    Torx
                                    > screws in any quantity - are they (as they appear) significantly
                                    more
                                    > resistant to stripping out the heads?
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > David Graybeal
                                    > Portland, OR.
                                    >
                                    > "Moderation in all things, especially moderation"
                                    >
                                    > *********************

                                    I have never had the experience of ever stripping out a Robertson
                                    screw when driving it by hand in over 30 years of using them.

                                    I highly recommend your method David, in using a driver with an
                                    adjustable clutch, because it is possible if driving into hardwood,
                                    with no pilot hole, to strip out the head - or twist it off - with a
                                    powerful driver.

                                    Two other possible errors I have witnessed, is using a smaller size
                                    bit to drive a size larger screw and using a driver bit that is worn
                                    out so the edges are rounded. If the bit won't hold the screw by
                                    itself it is either the wrong bit or it is worn out.

                                    I have only seen torx screws that are meant for metal work. Was not
                                    aware of them being available for use in woodwork. Not that I see
                                    any advantage in them.

                                    Nels
                                  • Clyde Wisner
                                    I have an idea, it depends on the maker or supplier of the square drive screws. I ve had some stainless ones that striped so fast that I probably threw half
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                                      I have an idea, it depends on the maker or supplier of the square drive
                                      screws. I've had some stainless ones that striped so fast that I
                                      probably threw half away and then another batch from McFeeley wich
                                      worked pretty well in putting down decking and assorted chores. If they
                                      fail the first time try another supplir. Clyde


                                      David wrote:

                                      >>to Torx ("star drive") and I am now a happy camper.
                                      >>
                                      >>- Bill
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Bryant Owen
                                      I m presuming you re talking about the head. I ve stripped enough to say some things. 1. type and quality of the material used for the screw i.e. bronze
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                                        I'm presuming you're talking about the head. I've stripped enough to
                                        say some things.

                                        1. type and quality of the material used for the screw i.e. bronze
                                        obviously strips easier than stainless. Also consider the metalurgical
                                        aspect of the screw - some are "softer" than others.

                                        2. size/shape of screw head opening vs size/shape of screwdriver head.

                                        3. material you're using the screw in e.g. screw into a knot that
                                        stops the screw from turning.

                                        4. how much "wheaties" you and your cordless are using.

                                        All things considered, when I've matched the right screw to the right
                                        job and used the right head, used pilots or some other pre-drilling
                                        and watched the feed and speed I've never stripped one.

                                        Bryant - who sometimes doesn't know his own strength.

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Has anyone stripped Robertson square drive screws as often as me? I
                                        switched
                                        > to Torx ("star drive") and I am now a happy camper.
                                        >
                                        > - Bill
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of
                                        > Nels
                                        > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:28 AM
                                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: psychology of boatbuilding
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and
                                        > > learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head
                                        > > screwdriver by assisting with the Micro. This is essential when you
                                        > > are hanging upside down and inside out under the cockpit deck of the
                                        > > Micro you are building.
                                        > >
                                        > With all due respect David, I think it is about time your daughter
                                        > learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and phillips
                                        > screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver
                                        >
                                        > I believe they are called "square head" screws in the States and often
                                        > advertised through McFeely's. With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                                        > the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those other
                                        > old fashioned kind:-) Also work perfectly when using a cordless drill.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.mcfeelys.com/
                                        >
                                        > Nels
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
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                                      • Harry James
                                        I have had better luck with the square drives over phillips and I have had very good results with the torx drives. The smaller ones will last through a couple
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 9, 2006
                                          I have had better luck with the square drives over phillips and I have
                                          had very good results with the torx drives. The smaller ones will last
                                          through a couple hundred screws, the larger ones seem to never fail. The
                                          problem is finding marine grade screws with torx heads. You got a source?

                                          HJ

                                          Bill Kreamer wrote:
                                          > Has anyone stripped Robertson square drive screws as often as me? I switched
                                          > to Torx ("star drive") and I am now a happy camper.
                                          >
                                          > - Bill
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > _____
                                          >
                                          > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          > Nels
                                          > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:28 AM
                                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: psychology of boatbuilding
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and
                                          >> learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head
                                          >> screwdriver by assisting with the Micro. This is essential when you
                                          >> are hanging upside down and inside out under the cockpit deck of the
                                          >> Micro you are building.
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          > With all due respect David, I think it is about time your daughter
                                          > learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and phillips
                                          > screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".
                                          >
                                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver
                                          >
                                          > I believe they are called "square head" screws in the States and often
                                          > advertised through McFeely's. With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                                          > the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those other
                                          > old fashioned kind:-) Also work perfectly when using a cordless drill.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.mcfeelys.com/
                                          >
                                          > Nels
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • ellengaestboatbuildingcom
                                          ... daughter ... phillips ... With a robbie you can drive a screw into ... other ... Hear!Hear! I have used these exclusively on several boats and can not
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 10, 2006
                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                            >> With all due respect David, I think it is about time your
                                            daughter
                                            > learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and
                                            phillips
                                            > screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".
                                            >
                                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver
                                            With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                                            > the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those
                                            other
                                            > old fashioned kind:-)

                                            Hear!Hear! I have used these exclusively on several boats and can
                                            not imagine ever wanting to go back to any other type of screw
                                            head.To add to what Nels mentions about over head screw driving with
                                            one hand,it is important to use the correct sized Robertson screw
                                            driver and genuine Robertson screws not just some generic square
                                            head screw driver and square headed screws.The real
                                            Robertsons have nice deep pockets with crisp corners which makes for
                                            authorative driving and backing out of these screws,especially
                                            those one-handed-out-stretched-on-your-belly-with-arms-bent-down-
                                            into-some-hell-hole-of-a-tight-engine-compartment-with-no-light-to-
                                            see-the-phukin-screw-while-the-crew-asks-whether-it-is-noraml-for-so-
                                            much-water-to-be-in-the-engine-compartment-in-the-first-place-and-
                                            can-you-fix-it-before-we-drift-into-the-rocks-just-over-there-while-
                                            the-crews-pet-Beagle-keeps-trying-to-get-between-your-legs-to-sniff-
                                            your-crotch screws.
                                            What? You've never had that type of screw before? You ain't lived
                                            yet my friend!


                                            Sincerely,

                                            Peter"I'll take an even 13" Lenihan, who can't say or sing enough
                                            the praises for Robertson drive
                                          • Peter Lenihan
                                            ... daughter ... phillips ... With a robbie you can drive a screw into ... other ... Hear!Hear! I have used these exclusively on several boats and can not
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Feb 10, 2006
                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                              >> With all due respect David, I think it is about time your
                                              daughter
                                              > learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and
                                              phillips
                                              > screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".
                                              >
                                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver
                                              With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                                              > the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those
                                              other
                                              > old fashioned kind:-)

                                              Hear!Hear! I have used these exclusively on several boats and can
                                              not imagine ever wanting to go back to any other type of screw
                                              head.To add to what Nels mentions about over head screw driving with
                                              one hand,it is important to use the correct sized Robertson screw
                                              driver and genuine Robertson screws not just some generic square
                                              head screw driver and square headed screws.The real
                                              Robertsons have nice deep pockets with crisp corners which makes for
                                              authorative driving and backing out of these screws,especially
                                              those one-handed-out-stretched-on-your-belly-with-arms-bent-down-
                                              into-some-hell-hole-of-a-tight-engine-compartment-with-no-light-to-
                                              see-the-phukin-screw-while-the-crew-asks-whether-it-is-noraml-for-so-
                                              much-water-to-be-in-the-engine-compartment-in-the-first-place-and-
                                              can-you-fix-it-before-we-drift-into-the-rocks-just-over-there-while-
                                              the-crews-pet-Beagle-keeps-trying-to-get-between-your-legs-to-sniff-
                                              your-crotch screws.
                                              What? You've never had that type of screw before? You ain't lived
                                              yet my friend!


                                              Sincerely,

                                              Peter"I'll take an even 13" Lenihan, who can't say or sing enough
                                              the praises for Robertson drive
                                            • Bill Kreamer
                                              Okay guys you got me. I guess I have to limit what I said to the situation where one is re-using a screw, as I am wont to do. You can strip a long Robertson
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Feb 10, 2006
                                                Okay guys you got me. I guess I have to limit what I said to the situation
                                                where one is re-using a screw, as I am wont to do. You can strip a long
                                                Robertson screw on the second shot, whereas a similar Torx screw will go in
                                                and out many times, no problem. Both Robertson and Torx screws are
                                                available as stainless deck screws. You often get a free Torx bit in the
                                                box of screws. It's at the bottom, I guess to prevent guys like me from
                                                filching them. Yeah, I need to get a clutch drill soon. Seen any deals?
                                                What's your model preference?



                                                Full Tilt Bill <wicked grin>



                                                _____

                                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                Nels
                                                Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 2:14 PM
                                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [bolger] Robertson (Square drive) Screws



                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Bill,
                                                >
                                                > I own an Architectural Millwork firm. We use predominantly #2
                                                > Robertson drive screws. I've never seen anyone strip one out. I
                                                have
                                                > to say, that would take a bit of talent (did you ever have the
                                                > nickname FullTiltBill?) <Grin>. We do use mostly cordless drills
                                                with
                                                > adjustable clutch settings to avoid such mishaps. I've never used
                                                Torx
                                                > screws in any quantity - are they (as they appear) significantly
                                                more
                                                > resistant to stripping out the heads?
                                                >
                                                > Cheers,
                                                > David Graybeal
                                                > Portland, OR.
                                                >
                                                > "Moderation in all things, especially moderation"
                                                >
                                                > *********************

                                                I have never had the experience of ever stripping out a Robertson
                                                screw when driving it by hand in over 30 years of using them.

                                                I highly recommend your method David, in using a driver with an
                                                adjustable clutch, because it is possible if driving into hardwood,
                                                with no pilot hole, to strip out the head - or twist it off - with a
                                                powerful driver.

                                                Two other possible errors I have witnessed, is using a smaller size
                                                bit to drive a size larger screw and using a driver bit that is worn
                                                out so the edges are rounded. If the bit won't hold the screw by
                                                itself it is either the wrong bit or it is worn out.

                                                I have only seen torx screws that are meant for metal work. Was not
                                                aware of them being available for use in woodwork. Not that I see
                                                any advantage in them.

                                                Nels





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                                                - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Bill Kreamer
                                                Harry, Robertson and Torx screws are available as stainless deck screws. You often get a free Torx bit in the box of screws. It s at the bottom, I guess to
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Feb 10, 2006
                                                  Harry, Robertson and Torx screws are available as stainless deck screws.
                                                  You often get a free Torx bit in the box of screws. It's at the bottom, I
                                                  guess to prevent guys like me from filching them. Yeah, I need to get a
                                                  clutch drill soon. Seen any deals? What's your model preference?



                                                  Full Tilt Bill <wicked grin>





                                                  _____

                                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                  Harry James
                                                  Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 1:37 AM
                                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: psychology of boatbuilding



                                                  I have had better luck with the square drives over phillips and I have
                                                  had very good results with the torx drives. The smaller ones will last
                                                  through a couple hundred screws, the larger ones seem to never fail. The
                                                  problem is finding marine grade screws with torx heads. You got a source?

                                                  HJ

                                                  Bill Kreamer wrote:
                                                  > Has anyone stripped Robertson square drive screws as often as me? I
                                                  switched
                                                  > to Torx ("star drive") and I am now a happy camper.
                                                  >
                                                  > - Bill
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > _____
                                                  >
                                                  > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                  > Nels
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 10:28 AM
                                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: psychology of boatbuilding
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> My daughter is my boatbuilding partner. She is now 11 years old and
                                                  >> learned the difference between a phillips head and a flat head
                                                  >> screwdriver by assisting with the Micro. This is essential when you
                                                  >> are hanging upside down and inside out under the cockpit deck of the
                                                  >> Micro you are building.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > With all due respect David, I think it is about time your daughter
                                                  > learned "the facts of life". Put away those silly flat and phillips
                                                  > screwdrivers and instead get her a set of "Robbies".
                                                  >
                                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_screwdriver
                                                  >
                                                  > I believe they are called "square head" screws in the States and often
                                                  > advertised through McFeely's. With a robbie you can drive a screw into
                                                  > the ceiling, or at an angle, using one hand. Try that with those other
                                                  > old fashioned kind:-) Also work perfectly when using a cordless drill.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://www.mcfeelys.com/
                                                  >
                                                  > Nels
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >




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                                                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                                                  horses
                                                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
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                                                  aska+outdoors&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=DMVKSdfVjc
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                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • David
                                                  Wicked Bill, We use our Makita 14.4 volt drill drivers & impact drivers every day. There are many good brands out there. Bosch, Panasonic, DeWalt, PorterCable,
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Feb 10, 2006
                                                    Wicked Bill,

                                                    We use our Makita 14.4 volt drill drivers & impact drivers every day.
                                                    There are many good brands out there. Bosch, Panasonic, DeWalt,
                                                    PorterCable, etc. Some are even having good luck with the lower-priced
                                                    Ryobi (for lighter or less frequent use, I'd imagine).

                                                    Since you're presumably buying for your personal use, there's one
                                                    thing I'd highly recommend. Heft the dang thing... with a battery in
                                                    it. There are several perfectly good ones out there that felt either
                                                    too fat, or too skinny to me... or too heavy, or badly balanced,. Look
                                                    for good balance, and a good fit in your hand. Keep in mind that a
                                                    minor feeling of misfit, or too much weight, will multiply
                                                    exponentially as you drive larger quantities of fasteners. Hello sore
                                                    muscles, achy arms, and/or Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

                                                    I've been happy, so far, with the stuff I've gotten from McFeely's.
                                                    BTW, keep in mind that Stainless screws are gonna be softer, and strip
                                                    out easier than your typical hardened steel screw. Silicon Bronze,
                                                    even more so. Solid Brass, more than that. Also, folks are gonna find
                                                    much easier access to square drives, in a much larger selection, than
                                                    either torx or butterfly drives. For those, one has to track down your
                                                    own local industrial fasteners distributor. Some of them won't sell
                                                    retail, or in smaller (small boat) quantities.

                                                    Happy Shopping (and screwing),
                                                    David Graybeal
                                                    Portland, OR

                                                    "It's much easier to be critical than to be correct" -- Benjamin Disraeli

                                                    *************

                                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Harry, Robertson and Torx screws are available as stainless deck screws.

                                                    > You often get a free Torx bit in the box of screws. It's at the
                                                    bottom, I guess to prevent guys like me from filching them. Yeah, I
                                                    need to get a clutch drill soon. Seen any deals? What's your model
                                                    preference?
                                                    >
                                                    > Full Tilt Bill <wicked grin>
                                                  • derbyrm
                                                    I really like my 18 volt Ryobi now that they offer replacement batteries at a reasonable price. That said, my wife s 9.6 volt Ryobi is much lighter and easier
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Feb 10, 2006
                                                      I really like my 18 volt Ryobi now that they offer replacement batteries at
                                                      a reasonable price. That said, my wife's 9.6 volt Ryobi is much lighter and
                                                      easier to handle, and my 18 volt Harbor Freight unit does the job despite
                                                      its rough looks.

                                                      Get two batteries and the charger.

                                                      Roger
                                                      derbyrm@...
                                                      http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@...>

                                                      <snip>
                                                      >Yeah, I need to get a clutch drill soon. Seen any deals?
                                                      > What's your model preference?

                                                      > Full Tilt Bill <wicked grin>
                                                    • Nels
                                                      ... day. ... priced ... Dang David... Once again I have to agree;-) I have tried several cordless drills over the years and my original Makita was the most
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Feb 10, 2006
                                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Wicked Bill,
                                                        >
                                                        > We use our Makita 14.4 volt drill drivers & impact drivers every
                                                        day.
                                                        > There are many good brands out there. Bosch, Panasonic, DeWalt,
                                                        > PorterCable, etc. Some are even having good luck with the lower-
                                                        priced
                                                        > Ryobi (for lighter or less frequent use, I'd imagine).

                                                        >
                                                        Dang David...
                                                        Once again I have to agree;-) I have tried several cordless drills
                                                        over the years and my original Makita was the most reliable and user
                                                        friendly in my experience.

                                                        If buying new be sure to purchase one with Ni-MH batteries.They
                                                        don't tend to develop internal shorts like the old Ni-Cads.

                                                        "Nickel Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) do not contain any heavy metals such
                                                        as lead, mercury, or cadmium, and they can be recharged about 1,000
                                                        times. Ni-MH batteries having high mAh (milliamp hour) ratings will
                                                        last longest. Rechargeable batteries will save you money over time
                                                        and can help to reduce household waste."

                                                        The best boatbuilding robertson screws are sold by McFeely's for
                                                        reasons given at their website:

                                                        http://www.mcfeelys.com/subcat.asp?subcat=20.1.5.8

                                                        They also have cordless driver kits.

                                                        I have no affiliation whatsoever with McFeely's just sharing what I
                                                        have heard. I am a Lee Valley fan myself:-)

                                                        Nels
                                                      • Clyde Wisner
                                                        Last year I bought a 14.4 Makita hammer driver from McFeeley s and Makita threw in a 3/8 drill motor, 2 batteries and charger. Not free but I ve been very
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Feb 11, 2006
                                                          Last year I bought a 14.4 Makita hammer driver from McFeeley's and
                                                          Makita threw in a 3/8 drill motor, 2 batteries and charger. Not free but
                                                          I've been very happy and driving drywall screws into very dry, 5 yr old
                                                          framing in the housed that never gets done. Clyde

                                                          Nels wrote:

                                                          >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>Wicked Bill,
                                                          >>
                                                          >>We use our Makita 14.4 volt drill drivers & impact drivers every
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >day.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>There are many good brands out there. Bosch, Panasonic, DeWalt,
                                                          >>PorterCable, etc. Some are even having good luck with the lower-
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >priced
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >>Ryobi (for lighter or less frequent use, I'd imagine).
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >Dang David...
                                                          >
                                                          >



                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Nels
                                                          ... but ... old ... I like the way McFeeley s talk about their stuff - like they actually really use it themselves! Talk about your boat porn. How about tool
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Feb 11, 2006
                                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Last year I bought a 14.4 Makita hammer driver from McFeeley's and
                                                            > Makita threw in a 3/8 drill motor, 2 batteries and charger. Not free
                                                            but
                                                            > I've been very happy and driving drywall screws into very dry, 5 yr
                                                            old
                                                            > framing in the housed that never gets done. Clyde
                                                            >

                                                            I like the way McFeeley's talk about their stuff - like they actually
                                                            really use it themselves!

                                                            Talk about your boat porn. How about tool porn? This one has me
                                                            drooling:-)

                                                            http://www.mcfeelys.com/product.asp?ProductID=MK-X400

                                                            Nels
                                                          • Harry James
                                                            Where are you getting torx stainless? HJ
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Feb 11, 2006
                                                              Where are you getting torx stainless?

                                                              HJ

                                                              Bill Kreamer wrote:
                                                              > Okay guys you got me. I guess I have to limit what I said to the situation
                                                              > where one is re-using a screw, as I am wont to do. You can strip a long
                                                              > Robertson screw on the second shot, whereas a similar Torx screw will go in
                                                              > and out many times, no problem. Both Robertson and Torx screws are
                                                              > available as stainless deck screws. You often get a free Torx bit in the
                                                              > box of screws. It's at the bottom, I guess to prevent guys like me from
                                                              > filching them. Yeah, I need to get a clutch drill soon. Seen any deals?
                                                              > What's your model preference?
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
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