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micro or long micro

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  • wyliewesty
    I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost needed to build the bigger
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 29, 2006
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      I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
      Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
      needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
      of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
      boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
      year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
      better.
      Wayne
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... cost ... a ... Not too sure of the actual real extra costs but if you are seriously planning on a year long cruise up or down the east coast,bite the
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "wyliewesty" <wyliewesty@y...> wrote:
        >
        > I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
        > Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or
        cost
        > needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
        > of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
        > boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend
        a
        > year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
        > better.
        > Wayne
        >

        Not too sure of the actual real extra costs but if you are seriously
        planning on a year long cruise up or down the east coast,bite the
        bullet and build the Long Micro.In the greater scheme of things,the
        extra few sheets of plywood and the extra gallon or two of epoxy ain't
        gonna amount to more then a hill of beans but the extra storage
        capacity of the Long Micro will pay big dividends when you take on
        provisions.........

        Keep us posted on your adventure and good luck!

        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan
      • wyliewesty
        Peter, you have explaned it to me better than anyone else. Thanks, Wayne ... a ... cost ... this ... spend ... better ... seriously ... things,the ... ain t
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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          Peter, you have explaned it to me better than anyone else.
          Thanks,
          Wayne

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
          wrote:
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "wyliewesty" <wyliewesty@y...>
          wrote:
          > >
          > > I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between
          a
          > > Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or
          > cost
          > > needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra
          cost
          > > of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting
          this
          > > boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will
          spend
          > a
          > > year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be
          better
          > > better.
          > > Wayne
          > >
          >
          > Not too sure of the actual real extra costs but if you are
          seriously
          > planning on a year long cruise up or down the east coast,bite the
          > bullet and build the Long Micro.In the greater scheme of
          things,the
          > extra few sheets of plywood and the extra gallon or two of epoxy
          ain't
          > gonna amount to more then a hill of beans but the extra storage
          > capacity of the Long Micro will pay big dividends when you take on
          > provisions.........
          >
          > Keep us posted on your adventure and good luck!
          >
          > Sincerely,
          >
          > Peter Lenihan
          >
        • William King
          Wayne, I am currently building a Long Micro, and as you can guess, I agree with Peter. You should build an LM. Larger, more comfortable, and faster sailing.
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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            Wayne,
            I am currently building a Long Micro, and as you can guess, I agree with
            Peter. You should build
            an LM. Larger, more comfortable, and faster sailing. May I suggest two
            things to keep in mind
            while you consider building?

            First, do not underestimate the amount of time and energy it takes to
            complete an LM. Dan Gonneau
            estimates it took him 800 hours. I'm currently at hour 500, and I should
            be done by hour 600, but
            I've also been building over 2 years (2 years and 4 mos., to be exact). I
            have kept very careful track of my time and my 500 hours include straight,
            hard working time, not thinking-time, errand-time, or
            sitting-in-the-moaning-chair time. I had initially hoped (quietly) that I
            would be done in about 14 or 15 months, but no more than 2 years. Life has
            a way of tossing all sorts of interesting new adventures in the way of our
            well-laid boat building plans. I'm not complaining. I enjoy working on my
            boat, and if it takes me 3 or 4 years, those will be enjoyable years
            too. I merely mention this because you state that you plans are for the
            near future.

            Second, the cost differences between an LM and Micro can be easily
            compensated for by using different materials. You can spend more money
            building a very nice Micro than you can building an "OK" LM. For example,
            if you want to save money on an LM, use 3/8 inch fir plywood and sheath
            only the bottom (up to the waterline) in fiberglass. Coat the rest of the
            boat in epoxy (or don't) and paint. Some people on this list (group?)
            swear by latex house paint, which is far cheaper than marine-type
            paint. The issue of CDX ply versus marine fir ply versus okume (sp?)
            versus MDO comes up at least two times per year here. Everyone has an
            opinion. Sail? You can save money by either stitching your own sail, or
            using polytarp (not really my first choice for coastal cruising mind you,
            but...). Every choice results in costs or savings.

            If you like, I can tabulate all the materials I have used in my LM thus
            far. I can total the costs too but your results may differ depending upon
            what materials you choose (and I have not purchased any of my rigging or
            sails). Let me know, and keep us posted on what you decide. Building an
            LM is a true joy and hopefully you decide to build.

            Bill, in Ohio.


            > I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
            >Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
            >needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
            >of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
            >boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
            >year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
            >better.
            > Wayne
          • Mark Balogh
            It has been mentioned that the difference in cost between a Micro or Micro Navigator and a long Micro is just the wood and epoxy. Before one makes a final
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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              It has been mentioned that the difference in cost between a Micro or Micro
              Navigator and a long Micro is just the wood and epoxy. Before one makes a
              final decision the cost of building bigger spars and getting much larger
              sails should be considered.

              Mark
            • Paul Lefebvre
              I realize you re talking about money, no building time; but time is money, and Buehler makes good arguments that I m sure most would agree with, that building
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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                I realize you're talking about money, no building time; but time is money,
                and Buehler makes good arguments that I'm sure most would agree with, that
                building a longer boat is often far easier (therefore may take less time?)
                than building a shorter boat, simply because the curves you're bending wood
                to are gentler due to being stretched out longer. I've faced this numerous
                times building my Micro, where the wood just didn't quite want to follow the
                curve the plans call for because I'm beefing up certain elements beyond the
                original scantlings. If you factor that in, you may nearly break even on LM,
                all other things being equal!

                Paul L.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                wyliewesty
                Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 2:53 AM
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [bolger] micro or long micro


                I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
                Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
                needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
                of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
                boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
                year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
                better.
                Wayne





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              • Nels
                ... or Micro ... makes a ... larger ... I e-mailed a price request to Sailrite just as a matter of comparison - for both Micro and Long Micro sailplan. Micro
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Balogh <mark@b...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It has been mentioned that the difference in cost between a Micro
                  or Micro
                  > Navigator and a long Micro is just the wood and epoxy. Before one
                  makes a
                  > final decision the cost of building bigger spars and getting much
                  larger
                  > sails should be considered.
                  >
                  > Mark

                  I e-mailed a price request to Sailrite just as a matter of
                  comparison - for both Micro and Long Micro sailplan. Micro is
                  considered a bit under canvassed in light winds and Long Micro has
                  lots, so that one is pulling in the first reef much earlier. It has
                  over 100 square feet more sail area. As mark mentions this also adds
                  to the cost for spars and other rigging.

                  Long Micro also requires a larger motor if one is serious about
                  going any distance, but sometimes the larger motors are cheaper than
                  small ones if one shops around. Lot's of 9.9's around.

                  Another factor is that one may need a larger trailer to tow safely
                  and it may require brakes on it. Micro can be towed with a 4
                  cylinder but I would want a 6 for the LM if going any distance.

                  This all adds up and it is advisable to take a good look at the
                  total cost factor. Better to have a Micro you can use than a Long
                  Micro that never sees the water as it eats up all the funds.

                  Nels
                • Bruce Hallman
                  On 1/30/06, Paul Lefebvre wrote ... True, but probably not for the Micro versus the Long Micro. Both of them have easy bends for the specified
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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                    On 1/30/06, Paul Lefebvre <paul@...> wrote
                    > building a longer boat is often far easier (therefore may take less time?)
                    > than building a shorter boat, simply because the curves you're bending wood

                    True, but probably not for the Micro versus the Long Micro. Both of
                    them have easy
                    bends for the specified plywood.

                    In my experience, more important than the size of the bare hull is the
                    complexity of the finish work. Finishing the bare hull can take 2X,
                    3X, (and much more!) than building the bare hull.
                  • Nels
                    ... thus ... depending upon ... rigging or ... Building an ... Hi Bill, I would be interested in that tabulation as well. Then when I get a sail quote we can
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@b...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Wayne,
                      > If you like, I can tabulate all the materials I have used in my LM
                      thus
                      > far. I can total the costs too but your results may differ
                      depending upon
                      > what materials you choose (and I have not purchased any of my
                      rigging or
                      > sails). Let me know, and keep us posted on what you decide.
                      Building an
                      > LM is a true joy and hopefully you decide to build.
                      >
                      > Bill, in Ohio.

                      Hi Bill,

                      I would be interested in that tabulation as well. Then when I get a
                      sail quote we can add that in. Sailrite might also give a price
                      estimate for the hardware and ropes as well.

                      Also what basic tools you recommend.

                      Thanks,

                      Nels
                    • Nels
                      ... I ve faced this numerous ... follow the ... beyond the ... even on LM, ... PCB&F now recommend beefing up the scantlings if one plans on taking longer
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
                        I've faced this numerous
                        > times building my Micro, where the wood just didn't quite want to
                        follow the
                        > curve the plans call for because I'm beefing up certain elements
                        beyond the
                        > original scantlings. If you factor that in, you may nearly break
                        even on LM,
                        > all other things being equal!
                        >
                        > Paul L.

                        PCB&F now recommend beefing up the scantlings if one plans on taking
                        longer trips, like to the Bahamas, or up to Nova Scotia. So you could
                        be right about that. Also they recommend the Navigator conversion
                        which is a lot more work!

                        Then it would depend on the level of finish you want. There is a
                        considerable amount more sanding and painting on a Long Micro. It is
                        after all - about 30% bigger altogether.

                        Nels
                      • Bill
                        Nels, Can do, but it will take me a day to get my records (they are home- I am not) and tabulate them. Bill
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 30, 2006
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                          Nels,
                          Can do, but it will take me a day to get my records (they are home- I
                          am not) and tabulate them.
                          Bill

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@b...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Wayne,
                          > > If you like, I can tabulate all the materials I have used in my LM
                          > thus
                          > > far. I can total the costs too but your results may differ
                          > depending upon
                          > > what materials you choose (and I have not purchased any of my
                          > rigging or
                          > > sails). Let me know, and keep us posted on what you decide.
                          > Building an
                          > > LM is a true joy and hopefully you decide to build.
                          > >
                          > > Bill, in Ohio.
                          >
                          > Hi Bill,
                          >
                          > I would be interested in that tabulation as well. Then when I get a
                          > sail quote we can add that in. Sailrite might also give a price
                          > estimate for the hardware and ropes as well.
                          >
                          > Also what basic tools you recommend.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Nels
                          >
                        • Paul Thober
                          Hi Wayne. Mr. Bolger said somewhere that Micro is a sufficient cruising sailboat for 90% of the population. Beware of all the assurances that a Long Micro will
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 31, 2006
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                            Hi Wayne.

                            Mr. Bolger said somewhere that Micro is a sufficient cruising sailboat for 90% of the population.

                            Beware of all the assurances that a Long Micro will hardly cost more than a Micro. Almost everything will cost more. The sails will cost more, the plywood will cost more, the epoxy will cost more, the paint will cost more, you will be inclined to purchase a larger motor which will cost more, any stay in a marina will cost more, if you have to have the boat launched it will cost more, a trailer will cost more, if you store the boat it will cost more.

                            I think you will find that the Micro has plenty of room particularly if you plan to cruise single-handed. Storage is no issue. When cruising on the east coast you are usually no more that a couple of days from a typical American super market.

                            A few years ago I built a Chebacco and spent most of a year sailing her on the east coast. If you have any questions about my experiences I would be happy to share them with you.

                            Best of luck

                            Paul Thober

                            wyliewesty <wyliewesty@...> wrote: I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
                            Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
                            needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
                            of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
                            boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
                            year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
                            better.
                            Wayne





                            Bolger rules!!!
                            - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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                          • Bruce Hallman
                            ... I think that quote comes from Bernie Wolfard s catalogue. ... I agree. And, as you are on a budget. Consider buying your Micro. Used ones are often
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 31, 2006
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                              On 1/31/06, Paul Thober <paulthober@...> wrote:
                              > Mr. Bolger said somewhere that Micro is a sufficient cruising sailboat for 90% of the population.

                              I think that quote comes from Bernie Wolfard's catalogue.

                              > I think you will find that the Micro has plenty of room particularly if you plan to cruise single-handed.

                              I agree.


                              And, as you are on a budget. Consider buying your Micro.
                              Used ones are often cheaper than building new, and certainly
                              cheaper if you value your time at minimum wage or above.
                            • Nels
                              ... sailboat for 90% of the population. Chuck Merrell says something very similar: http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/ Suesanne Altenburger does not totally
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 31, 2006
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thober <paulthober@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Wayne.
                                >
                                > Mr. Bolger said somewhere that Micro is a sufficient cruising
                                sailboat for 90% of the population.

                                Chuck Merrell says something very similar:

                                http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/

                                Suesanne Altenburger does not totally agree:

                                "The navigator conversion was designed for a fellow that wanted to
                                singlehandedly circimnavigate the australian continent, not the
                                earth....this is where the lecture begain. She carried on about
                                legal issues designing a boat and made sure i wasn't up to anything
                                too stupid.......very libertarian of her. She said it is a great
                                boat for shorter jaunts......specifically nova scotia and the
                                caribbean, but not the atlantic. She said what limits the micro the
                                most for larger crossings is the hull speed is so low you expose
                                yourself more. If i was interested in a bigger trip i should
                                consider a LM navigator and said the conversion would be easy enough
                                to do and they could do the drawings but no one had asked."

                                Actually I had askd but was told they were too busy.

                                Nels
                              • pvanderwaart
                                ... more than a Micro. Almost everything will cost more. The sails will cost more, the plywood will cost more, the epoxy will cost more, the paint will cost
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                  > Beware of all the assurances that a Long Micro will hardly cost
                                  more than a Micro. Almost everything will cost more. The sails will
                                  cost more, the plywood will cost more, the epoxy will cost more, the
                                  paint will cost more, you will be inclined to purchase a larger motor
                                  which will cost more, any stay in a marina will cost more, if you
                                  have to have the boat launched it will cost more, a trailer will cost
                                  more, if you store the boat it will cost more.
                                  ____

                                  I agree with the above; the Long Micro will cost more and be more
                                  work. But is the extra worth it? Bolger himself has said that they
                                  feel the LM offers better return on the dollar and work hour. Aside
                                  from the extra internal volume, the extra length will make LM much faster.

                                  One quibble about the above. I'll bet in most cases the motor does not
                                  cost more. The smallest OB with F/N/R gears is usually a 4/5 hp which
                                  is more than enough for either boat.

                                  Peter
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