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Re: [bolger] Re: Question? What weight of F.G. cloth?????

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  • eheins@corlink.com
    In my opinion it depends on what you are trying to achieve with the glass. Most wooden boats are glued & screwed together so that the structural integrity is
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 5, 2006
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      In my opinion it depends on what you are trying to achieve with the glass.
      Most wooden boats are glued & screwed together so that the structural
      integrity is there regardless of the cloth. If you intend the epoxy to
      strengthen a joint or such then it's one thing. On my Chebacco I used
      heavy tape (multiple layers) on the joints and only a 3 oz cloth over the
      whole topsides, then a thickened epoxy paste over all to be able to fair
      nicely. I was only using the cloth to prevent the checking of the A/B ply
      I used. It seems to have worked well so far.

      > Hi Bobby,
      >
      >> I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the
      > outside
      >> of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several
      > options on
      >> weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz
      > seems
      >> like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance
      > here??
      >
      > I used a "special" 5 oz. cloth from Raka on my Light Schooner. It
      > was advertised as being as strong or stronger than normal 6 oz.
      > cloth, but if doing it again, I'd use the 6 oz. cloth instead. The 5
      > oz. cloth just never seemed stout enough for that size hull. I've
      > used 6 oz. cloth since then on my FastBrick and Long Dory hulls and
      > have been happy with the result. I've also used 5 oz. Dynel on a
      > canoe hull, and while it was nice to work with, it seemed to take a
      > lot of epoxy to fill the weave and get a good smooth finish. I'm
      > getting ready to glass a Diablo hull this weekend with 10 oz. cloth,
      > which looks like it will take a good amount of epoxy to fill. A 14'
      > Michalak Robote I'm slowly messing around with will get 6 oz. cloth.
      >
      > For Bobcat, I don't think you could go wrong with 6 oz. cloth, since
      > the weight difference between that and 4 oz. cloth will be minimal in
      > that size boat. Besides, you won't likely be car-topping this boat
      > anyway, so a couple pounds more weight won't hurt anything. If you
      > do use lighter cloth, you might want to double up on the stem,
      > bottom, or other areas you think will be high wear, but I'd rather
      > just glass things one time.
      >
      > No matter what cloth you use, be sure to seal the plywood first with
      > a coat of epoxy, lightly sanded and wiped down. In my experience,
      > this step will make any glassing job turn out an order of magnitude
      > better than glassing bare plywood.
      >
      > Jon Kolb
      > http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Bruce Hallman
      ... In the case of boats designed by a designer, the real question is what is the *designer* trying to achieve with the glass. For the Bolger Topaz Spyder,
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 5, 2006
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        On 1/5/06, eheins wrote:
        > ...it depends on what you are trying to achieve with the glass.

        In the case of boats designed by a designer, the real question is what
        is the *designer* trying to achieve with the glass.

        For the Bolger Topaz Spyder, that I am building at the moment, Phil
        Bolger was quite explicit about location and sizing of the fiberglass.

        [And where he wasn't explicit, I asked him and he answered].

        I haven't seen Chebacco plans, but I presume the plan notes say what
        weight of glass to use, and if they don't, someone should ask Phil
        Bolger.

        For self designed boats, make your own judgement.

        It is a tradeoff of cost/time, weight, strength and moisture barrier.
      • Nels
        ... the glass. For what it is worth - here is what the Cold Cure manual says. It seems to indicate that using a heavy cloth gains little and uses a lot more
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 5, 2006
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, eheins@c... wrote:
          >
          > In my opinion it depends on what you are trying to achieve with
          the glass.

          For what it is worth - here is what the Cold Cure manual says. It
          seems to indicate that using a heavy cloth gains little and uses a
          lot more epoxy. This from a company that exists by selling epoxy:-)

          However I have heard that using too light a cloth is not so easy to
          apply (It may tend to "float") - so a 4 oz seems about right. Double
          up on the abrasion-prone areas with bias cut tape. 4 oz seems to fit
          into corners and over edges more easily too.

          Because the fiberglass is structural to the
          epoxy coating rather than the part, it's
          possible to use a lightweight cloth. Don't use
          a cloth a that is too heavy for the intended
          service, you'll use a lot more epoxy and have
          a heavier part, gaining little else. Tests run
          with Cold Cure epoxy show no appreciable
          difference in peel strength between the two
          most popular finishes of fiberglass cloth,
          Volan and Silane. Four and six ounce cloth
          are nearly invisible when wet out with clear
          epoxy resin. Heavier weight cloths begin to
          show the weave pattern under certain
          lighting conditions.

          Avoid using fiberglass mat with epoxy resins.
          The binder that holds the mat together is
          designed to be dissolved by the styrene in
          polyester resins. Most epoxies don't use
          styrene as a diluent, making it almost impossible
          to wet out the mat. Woven roving is wet
          out well by epoxy although we know of no
          reason to use it when building a wooden boat.

          Nels
        • Harry James
          The purpose of the fiberglass is to stabilize and protect the plywood surface so 2 - 4 oz should work fine for that. People tend to use 6oz but as Paul points
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 5, 2006
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            The purpose of the fiberglass is to stabilize and protect the plywood
            surface so 2 - 4 oz should work fine for that. People tend to use 6oz
            but as Paul points out below that just adds weight and work. I used .75
            oz on a transom I was finishing clear on one of the light dories we
            built a few summers ago, was very easy to get a really good finish and
            the fiberglass keeps the surface protected from moisture and stable so
            the varnish lasts a long time.

            HJ

            Paul Lefebvre wrote:
            > 4oz. has worked well for me on several strip kayaks and canoes; I don't
            > think the reduction in strength vs. 6oz. is too much at this scale, but it
            > still provides 100% of the protection you need for the wood. It absorbs far
            > less resin and really helps keep things lightweight - it's also easier to
            > fill the weave, so less work on subsequent coats of epoxy and sanding, which
            > is real nice. Put extra layers in high wear areas (stem, middle of bottom if
            > you'll be beaching, etc) and keep everything else light with one layer. 4oz
            > is not easy to find in mainstream stores, but it's readily available from
            > outfits like Raka and others.
            >
            > Paul L.
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            > txsailor37
            > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:55 AM
            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [bolger] Question? What weight of F.G. cloth?????
            >
            >
            > I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the outside
            > of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several options on
            > weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz seems
            > like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance here??
            >
            > BOBBY
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            > Bolger rules!!!
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            > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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          • Bruce Hallman
            ... Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that fiberglass adds strength. Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 5, 2006
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              On 1/5/06, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
              > The purpose of the fiberglass is to stabilize and protect the plywood

              Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
              fiberglass adds strength.

              Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
              a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
              wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.

              Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
              as to why they believe otherwise.
            • Jamie Orr
              That s one of the loaded questions, like what kind of plywood to use! I checked a couple of Paysons books, to see what he said. Couldn t find a weight
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 5, 2006
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                That's one of the loaded questions, like what kind of plywood to use!

                I checked a couple of Paysons books, to see what he said. Couldn't
                find a weight mentioned in "Building the Instant Catboat" (Bobcat).
                Looking in "Build the New Instant Boats" I found a reference to 10
                oz cloth on page 48. He's speaking of Gypsy there, but it's not so
                different in size from Bobcat. I would think 10 oz is too much -- I
                used 6 oz for my Chebacco and it worked fine.

                Incidently, when I started building I wrote to PCB about sheathing
                the hull, since the plans didn't have any instructions or mention of
                glass. He wrote back that it would probably be a good thing,
                (although he didn't seem to consider it necessary) and agreed that 6
                oz would do.



                I would guess that you have a lot of latitude in cloth weight, but
                here's my own entirely biased opinion. I've used mostly 6 oz for
                the Chebacco and also for strip canoes, one of them a Sairey Gamp
                copy only 9 feet long and 15 pounds complete, the other a 16 footer
                and 50 pounds. I didn't feel the 6 oz was too heavy, and it was
                nicer to use than 4 oz -- I used once and thought the smaller weave
                slower to wet out and didn't think it draped as well. I like the
                way 6 oz will follow a corner (the corner has to be rounded, of
                course). On stems I cut strips of cloth on the bias (at an angle)
                and stretch it along the stem, I've always found the 6 oz to take
                the compound shape very nicely.

                I'm sure other weights will do as well, but as I say, I prefered the
                6 over the 4oz because it seemed nicer to work with.

                Good sailing!

                Jamie Orr

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "txsailor37" <txsailor37@y...> wrote:
                >
                > I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the
                outside
                > of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several
                options on
                > weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz
                seems
                > like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance
                here??
                >
                > BOBBY
                >
              • Nels
                ... Great observation! Using crezon MDO - which is already sealed and ready to paint - is a case in point. Guaranteed for ten years for highway signage. Nels
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 5, 2006
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That's one of the loaded questions, like what kind of plywood to use!
                  >
                  Great observation! Using crezon MDO - which is already sealed and
                  ready to paint - is a case in point. Guaranteed for ten years for
                  highway signage.

                  Nels
                • derbyrm
                  High tensile strength implies it resists being stretched. It says nothing about what it does to resist compression -- and epoxy/fiberglass doesn t do much.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                    "High tensile strength" implies it resists being stretched. It says nothing
                    about what it does to resist compression -- and epoxy/fiberglass doesn't do
                    much.

                    I'm more worried about bumping into a rock (which compresses the outside of
                    the planking) than I am in having my wife escape thru the side (which would
                    put the outside of the planking in tension).

                    Similarly, the glass improves the resistance to bending where the outside is
                    being stretched, but does nothing for a bend in the opposite direction. If
                    you want to add protection from the ordinary viscitudes, put your glass or
                    Kevlar on the inside of the planking.

                    Roger
                    derbyrm@...
                    http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
                    To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    > Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
                    > fiberglass adds strength.
                    >
                    > Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
                    > a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
                    > wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
                    >
                    > Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
                    > as to why they believe otherwise.
                  • James Greene
                    ... Wouldn t better abrasion resistance result from putting it on the outside? If so, it seems like you need a layer on both sides to deal most effectively
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                      > If you want to add protection from the
                      > ordinary viscitudes, put your glass or
                      > Kevlar on the inside of the planking.

                      Wouldn't better abrasion resistance result from putting it on the outside? If so, it seems like you need a layer on both sides to deal most effectively with both abrasion and puncture resistance ...

                      James Greene
                    • Clyde Wisner
                      Heavier fiberglass means more epoxy and this means more strength, even multi layers to build strength. Unless you are trying to build an ultralite, I believe
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                        Heavier fiberglass means more epoxy and this means more strength, even
                        multi layers to build strength. Unless you are trying to build an
                        ultralite, I believe it's a mistake to cut corners here. Boats, we build
                        with plywood and fiberglass and epoxy take a beating even when riding
                        along on a trailer, but overall, it's the ability to get this strength
                        from plywd, fiberglass and epoxy, that makes it possible to assemble
                        these wonders in our garages or backyards, etc. Sorry to ramble on, Clyde


                        Bruce Hallman wrote:

                        > On 1/5/06, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                        > > The purpose of the fiberglass is to stabilize and protect the plywood
                        >
                        > Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
                        > fiberglass adds strength.
                        >
                        > Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
                        > a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
                        > wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
                        >
                        > Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
                        > as to why they believe otherwise.
                        >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                        > dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                        > Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                      • Doug Pollard
                        Not only are you right about putting glass and epoxy on the inside to strengthen the hull against a rock coming through it,but there is another reason. Wooden
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                          Not only are you right about putting glass and epoxy on the inside to
                          strengthen the hull against a rock coming through it,but there is
                          another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside. Over the years I can
                          count on the fingers of one hand how many times I have seen rot that
                          might have started on the outside. As to rot on the outside, old timers
                          used to say that rot occurs between wind and water. This is the area
                          where the salt water wicks up into the sides and evaporates. If your
                          boat is in salt water this area will not rot as the boat gets older and
                          salt builds up in the wood. So a good coat of epoxy on the hull will
                          slow water penetration and evaporation but glass is not needed. Most of
                          the rot I've seen on the outside has been in boats were kept in a leaky
                          old shed or was covered by a tarp. Having been teased over the years
                          about old rotten boats calling to me and being able to smell a rotten
                          boat for a mile I have come to believe that I know something about rot.
                          I am building a new boat and a friend came by and asked if I had
                          burned the old rotten one in my new wood stove and am I secretly
                          rebuilding it now.

                          Doug.

                          derbyrm wrote:

                          > "High tensile strength" implies it resists being stretched. It says
                          > nothing
                          > about what it does to resist compression -- and epoxy/fiberglass
                          > doesn't do
                          > much.
                          >
                          > I'm more worried about bumping into a rock (which compresses the
                          > outside of
                          > the planking) than I am in having my wife escape thru the side (which
                          > would
                          > put the outside of the planking in tension).
                          >
                          > Similarly, the glass improves the resistance to bending where the
                          > outside is
                          > being stretched, but does nothing for a bend in the opposite
                          > direction. If
                          > you want to add protection from the ordinary viscitudes, put your
                          > glass or
                          > Kevlar on the inside of the planking.
                          >
                          > Roger
                          > derbyrm@...
                          > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm <http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
                          > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                          > >
                          > > Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
                          > > fiberglass adds strength.
                          > >
                          > > Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
                          > > a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
                          > > wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
                          > >
                          > > Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
                          > > as to why they believe otherwise.
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Does epoxy and cloth stop rot?
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                            > another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside.

                            Does epoxy and cloth stop rot?
                          • derbyrm
                            I don t claim any particular expertise in this area, but I believe rot is a fungus which needs air and water to survive. Put on a watertight barrier and it
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                              I don't claim any particular expertise in this area, but I believe "rot" is
                              a fungus which needs air and water to survive. Put on a watertight barrier
                              and it will not grow.

                              From what I've read, three coats of epoxy constitute a watertight seal for
                              the surface of wood. Any glass added is to prevent impacts from rupturing
                              the epoxy and letting water thru the cracks. (If the wood is sealed on all
                              surfaces, it won't swell and shrink.)

                              Roger
                              derbyrm@...
                              http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>


                              >> another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside.
                              >
                              > Does epoxy and cloth stop rot?
                              >
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                              > horses
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                              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                              > (978) 282-1349
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                            • Doug Pollard
                              Glass has nothing to do with rot. But glass on the inside of the boat adds a lot to the impact resistance of the boat. Glass does keep fir from checking so
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                Glass has nothing to do with rot. But glass on the inside of the
                                boat adds a lot to the impact resistance of the boat. Glass does keep
                                fir from checking so if your using fir it does make the wood more rot
                                resistant. If you could saturate the wood with water and keep it that
                                way the boat would last forever but it would sure be heavy, and weaker too.

                                Doug

                                derbyrm wrote:

                                > I don't claim any particular expertise in this area, but I believe
                                > "rot" is
                                > a fungus which needs air and water to survive. Put on a watertight
                                > barrier
                                > and it will not grow.
                                >
                                > >From what I've read, three coats of epoxy constitute a watertight
                                > seal for
                                > the surface of wood. Any glass added is to prevent impacts from
                                > rupturing
                                > the epoxy and letting water thru the cracks. (If the wood is sealed
                                > on all
                                > surfaces, it won't swell and shrink.)
                                >
                                > Roger
                                > derbyrm@...
                                > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm <http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
                                >
                                >
                                > >> another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside.
                                > >
                                > > Does epoxy and cloth stop rot?
                                > >
                                > >
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                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... Both L.F. Herreshoff on page 53 of his book _The Compleat Cruiser_ http://tinyurl.com/cs434
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                  > resistant. If you could saturate the wood with water and keep it

                                  Both L.F. Herreshoff on page 53 of his book _The Compleat Cruiser_

                                  http://tinyurl.com/cs434
                                  http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0911378677/ref=sib_vae_pg_53/002-6956047-4572062?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S01V&twc=1&checkSum=kVxRov%2BXcD79q2Aq6vhyi3rDcH8KU55sUWQ2DhsgZLM%3D#reader-page

                                  ...and George Buehler in _Backyard Boatbuilding_ Chapter 3;

                                  http://tinyurl.com/dgz6u
                                  http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0071583807/ref=sib_vae_pg_27/002-6956047-4572062?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S015&twc=29&checkSum=gSHsrjsRnzZBC5xge6GLMLqC6EpPOtQjidC7wzy6Noo%3D#reader-page

                                  describe that rot is prevented by good airflow.

                                  And, Howard Chapelle in _Boatbuilding_ page 439

                                  http://tinyurl.com/cyux8
                                  http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0393035549/ref=sib_vae_pg_439/002-6956047-4572062?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=%20rot%20prevention&p=S0CD&twc=1&checkSum=4Vo3d9vMAkV9lAS%2B51U%2BY0PRu2JCaOeYf0F3Dvh9aEA%3D#reader-page

                                  ...writes that it is preferable to *not* coat the inside of the planks
                                  with varnish or paint, [presumably because it impedes air flow].

                                  Howard Chapelle has written a *lot* about preventing rot in wooden
                                  boats, including the practice of using rock salt, [as standing fresh
                                  water is very much prone to cause rot].

                                  I think you have to be logged into Amazon for the 'search inside the
                                  book' links above to work.
                                • Joe Nelson
                                  A lot has changed since Chapell has been around. If you use epoxy, coat both the inside and out. Epoxy forms such a good seal that if you dont encapsulate
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                    A lot has changed since Chapell has been around. If you use epoxy,
                                    coat both the inside and out. Epoxy forms such a good seal that if you
                                    dont encapsulate the inside, water will travel through the wood and
                                    cannot penatrate through the exterior epoxy coating. This will cause
                                    rot.

                                    A light 4- 6oz layer or fiberglass cloth will assue you a good and
                                    complete sealing of the wood. Since you can see that the cloth is
                                    saturated, you will get a consistent covering...as apposed to no cloth
                                    where it is possible to have holidays or voids in your epoxy coating
                                    and not know it. This along with abraision resistance are the best
                                    reasons to cover with fiberglass. I recently covered a centerboard
                                    with glass. Found out afterwards that the centerboard was too fat.
                                    Took me 2 hours with a belt sander to get through 6 0z glass. It is
                                    tough when encapsulated with epoxy!

                                    Joe
                                  • Bruce Hallman
                                    ... I doubt the process of wood rot has changed. I think the problem with epoxy encapsulation is that it has to be perfect; which is hard enough to achieve
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                      On 1/6/06, Joe Nelson <joe_nelson22@...> wrote:
                                      > A lot has changed since Chapell has been around

                                      I doubt the process of wood rot has changed.

                                      I think the problem with epoxy encapsulation is that it has to be
                                      perfect; which is hard enough to achieve even on day one, and over
                                      time, dings and nicks are inevitable. Other authors agree with Howard
                                      Chapelle:

                                      The book _Wooden Boat Renovation: New Life for Old Boats Using Modern
                                      Methods_ by Jim Trefethen [page 19] describes emphatically, that good
                                      ventilation is how to prevent rot.

                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070652392/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop/002-4187740-4016012?v=search-inside&keywords=rot+air&go.x=17&go.y=10&go=Go%21
                                      http://hort.net/+135c

                                      So does _Building Small Boats_ by Greg Rossel. Read his paragraph on
                                      page 32 about ventilation and rot.

                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822507/ref=sib_vae_pg_32/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot%20air&p=S01C&twc=4&checkSum=UaSFTi%2FjGBIRpPj%2B8Jd2QUFK8shZ9mA0YDOs0HH7LBA%3D#reader-page
                                      http://hort.net/+135d

                                      Also see the sidebar "Epoxy Yea or Nay" on page 25 of _How to Build
                                      Glued Lapstrake Wooden Boats_ by John Brooks where he describes in
                                      detail the process of rot on epoxy encapsulated wood.

                                      http://hort.net/+135e
                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822582/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S011&twc=14&checkSum=Ehza4C8FtxnL7AFQFcCf69Q5MLJoEdZuYPSbp021u18%3D#reader-page
                                    • Doug Pollard
                                      About 1961 I bought a Yokahama 21., a wonderful boat she was about four years old when I bought her and I kept her for 20 years she was glass over plywood and
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                        About 1961 I bought a Yokahama 21., a wonderful boat she was
                                        about four years old when I bought her and I kept her for 20 years she
                                        was glass over plywood and of course not epoxy in those days. She was
                                        painted inside with copper paint, shalac and a coat of primer and a
                                        finish coat. Over the years I added more paint. I removed the glass and
                                        reglassed after I owned her 7 years. I sold her to two women who were
                                        crazy about her. About 8 months after I sold her I stopped in the
                                        marina and she was in a cradle in the yard with a canvas over her.
                                        She was completely sealed in, both ends tight. I called the one girl on
                                        the phone and explained that they needed to open the ends of the
                                        canvas and keep here on her mooring so the wind would blow through. I
                                        was told to mind my own business.
                                        Two years later she was abandoned as unrepairable. The wood was
                                        constantly damp. Had she been constantly water logged or constantly dry
                                        she would have been OK. Logs under water where there is no worms last
                                        hundreds of years as in the great lakes.
                                        Since you can't have a boat soaking in water you have to keep it
                                        dry and epoxy is the answer to that. It's the inside of the boat that
                                        does not dry properly even when turned upside down. I once saw a wooden
                                        canoe upside down on a set of horses in a back yard and the guy had a
                                        wind scoop that funneled air up into the boat. I don't know how
                                        effective it was but made sense to me.

                                        Doug



                                        Joe Nelson wrote:

                                        > A lot has changed since Chapell has been around. If you use epoxy,
                                        > coat both the inside and out. Epoxy forms such a good seal that if you
                                        > dont encapsulate the inside, water will travel through the wood and
                                        > cannot penatrate through the exterior epoxy coating. This will cause
                                        > rot.
                                        >
                                        > A light 4- 6oz layer or fiberglass cloth will assue you a good and
                                        > complete sealing of the wood. Since you can see that the cloth is
                                        > saturated, you will get a consistent covering...as apposed to no cloth
                                        > where it is possible to have holidays or voids in your epoxy coating
                                        > and not know it. This along with abraision resistance are the best
                                        > reasons to cover with fiberglass. I recently covered a centerboard
                                        > with glass. Found out afterwards that the centerboard was too fat.
                                        > Took me 2 hours with a belt sander to get through 6 0z glass. It is
                                        > tough when encapsulated with epoxy!
                                        >
                                        > Joe
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Bolger rules!!!
                                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                                        > dead horses
                                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                                        > Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                                      • Doug Pollard
                                        Your right wood rot has always been the same. The problem is the wood has changed and the finishes have changed.. Wooden boats here on the cheasapeake bay were
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                          Your right wood rot has always been the same. The problem is the
                                          wood has changed and the finishes have changed.. Wooden boats here on
                                          the cheasapeake bay were made from trees a couple hundred years old and
                                          the grain was tight as a bulls rear end. Some of it was so tight the
                                          wood would hardly swell when wet or at least took a long time. The
                                          caulking was white lead the paint was white or red lead. The salt they
                                          were packed in was loaded with poisons of different kinds. Murcury was
                                          used to stop rot and they often mixed copper bottom paint in . The
                                          whole boat was a floating ecological disaster. They lasted though.

                                          Doug



                                          Bruce Hallman wrote:

                                          > On 1/6/06, Joe Nelson <joe_nelson22@...> wrote:
                                          > > A lot has changed since Chapell has been around
                                          >
                                          > I doubt the process of wood rot has changed.
                                          >
                                          > I think the problem with epoxy encapsulation is that it has to be
                                          > perfect; which is hard enough to achieve even on day one, and over
                                          > time, dings and nicks are inevitable. Other authors agree with Howard
                                          > Chapelle:
                                          >
                                          > The book _Wooden Boat Renovation: New Life for Old Boats Using Modern
                                          > Methods_ by Jim Trefethen [page 19] describes emphatically, that good
                                          > ventilation is how to prevent rot.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070652392/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop/002-4187740-4016012?v=search-inside&keywords=rot+air&go.x=17&go.y=10&go=Go%21
                                          > <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070652392/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop/002-4187740-4016012?v=search-inside&keywords=rot+air&go.x=17&go.y=10&go=Go%21>
                                          > http://hort.net/+135c
                                          >
                                          > So does _Building Small Boats_ by Greg Rossel. Read his paragraph on
                                          > page 32 about ventilation and rot.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822507/ref=sib_vae_pg_32/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot%20air&p=S01C&twc=4&checkSum=UaSFTi%2FjGBIRpPj%2B8Jd2QUFK8shZ9mA0YDOs0HH7LBA%3D#reader-page
                                          > <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822507/ref=sib_vae_pg_32/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot%20air&p=S01C&twc=4&checkSum=UaSFTi%2FjGBIRpPj%2B8Jd2QUFK8shZ9mA0YDOs0HH7LBA%3D#reader-page>
                                          > http://hort.net/+135d
                                          >
                                          > Also see the sidebar "Epoxy Yea or Nay" on page 25 of _How to Build
                                          > Glued Lapstrake Wooden Boats_ by John Brooks where he describes in
                                          > detail the process of rot on epoxy encapsulated wood.
                                          >
                                          > http://hort.net/+135e
                                          > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822582/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S011&twc=14&checkSum=Ehza4C8FtxnL7AFQFcCf69Q5MLJoEdZuYPSbp021u18%3D#reader-page
                                          > <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822582/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S011&twc=14&checkSum=Ehza4C8FtxnL7AFQFcCf69Q5MLJoEdZuYPSbp021u18%3D#reader-page>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Bolger rules!!!
                                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                                          > dead horses
                                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                          > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                          > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                                          > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                        • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                                          Traditionaly built wood plank boats where made to give and move and leak some in there joints as well as swell and shrink. Plywood is totaly different so you
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 6, 2006
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                                            Traditionaly built wood plank boats where made to give and move and
                                            leak some in there joints as well as swell and shrink. Plywood is
                                            totaly different so you are not talking about the same things it is
                                            apples and oranges. Planked boats need air flow to dry out plywood
                                            needs to have the water and air blocked out. Both need to be checked
                                            and repairs made as needed weather it be calking in a joints on a plank
                                            boat or a ding in the glass on a plywood boat. The other thing is
                                            polyester and epoxy are often confused. Polyester should only be used
                                            on molded all glass boats and epoxy on glassed plywood boats. The
                                            polyestr cracks easyer and will not soak in as well. But it is up to
                                            you how you do things it is your boat. Didn't see anything quoating any
                                            of the plywood boat builders that have been around for years.

                                            Jon
                                          • Bruce Hallman
                                            ... Fair enough. I agree that plywood is somewhat different, [though not totally different]. It is still wood and I have seen with my own eyes that it
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 7, 2006
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                                              > Plywood is totaly different so you are not talking about the same things it is
                                              > apples and oranges.

                                              Fair enough. I agree that plywood is somewhat different, [though not
                                              totally different]. It is still 'wood' and I have seen with my own
                                              eyes that it does indeed rot like wood.

                                              And, I agree, intuitively it seems that epoxy encapsulation would
                                              preserve plywood.

                                              Though, is their evidence proving the fact? Many experts seem to disagree.
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