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Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine

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  • Gordon Couger
    From: Roger Dewhurst ... What a novel idea. Gordon
    Message 1 of 21 , May 1, 2000
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      From: "Roger Dewhurst" <dewhurst@...>
      > >
      > >Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an outboard? ;-)
      >
      > Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard in a well
      > just forward of the transom?

      What a novel idea.

      Gordon
    • Donald Hodges
      If you are taking a poll, I vote against an outboard in a well - I ll spare you my whole rant, but just imagine an outboard as a close companion inside a small
      Message 2 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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        If you are taking a poll, I vote against an outboard in a well - I'll spare
        you my whole rant, but just imagine an outboard as a close companion inside
        a small boat - I did it once in a 26 footer, never again!

        Don Hodges
        dhodges@...
        http://www.ecoastlife.com
        Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
        Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@...>
        To: <bolger@egroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:25 PM
        Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine


        > At 22:27 1/05/00 -0500, you wrote:
        > >> I made some enquiries in this direction. There are some very nice
        > >> infinitely geared reversible pump/motor combinations, but they are not
        that
        > >> efficient with small engines.
        > >>
        > >
        > >Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an outboard? ;-)
        >
        > Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard in a well
        > just forward of the transom?
        >
        > Roger
        >
        >
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      • Roger Dewhurst
        ... Hydraulic pump/motor combinations are common enough in general industrial situations. It is not necessary to look for special marine versions. But
        Message 3 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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          At 16:35 2/05/00 -0000, you wrote:
          >I remember seeing a hydraulic drive auxiliary system advertised in
          >SAIL, decades ago. By now it is a vague memory.
          >

          Hydraulic pump/motor combinations are common enough in general industrial
          situations. It is not necessary to look for special marine versions. But
          consider the efficiencies of both pump and motor and the head losses
          involved in pumping hydraulic oil around before going down this track.

          Roger.
        • Roger Dewhurst
          ... Some additional advantages perhaps:- The motor is not bumping around on the transom while towing. It is not exposed to tempt the thief. Old hacksaw blades
          Message 4 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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            > if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top of
            >the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull the
            >motor out (it better be under 10hp) and put a prawn cooking wire cage in you
            >can have a pretty good shower. Also the new 4-strokes are pretty quiet (but
            >as youve doubtless noticed you pay plenty for what you dont get...noise!)
            >

            Some additional advantages perhaps:-

            The motor is not bumping around on the transom while towing.

            It is not exposed to tempt the thief.

            Old hacksaw blades can be embedded in the wood laminate of the covering box
            making it exceedingly difficult for the thief to cut the box off to get at
            the motor. Thieves here have been known to cut the whole transom out with a
            chain saw to get the motor! If I intended to hang the motor on the transom
            I would embed old hacksaw blades in the transom laminate!

            Roger.
          • Lincoln Ross
            I remember seeing a hydraulic drive auxiliary system advertised in SAIL, decades ago. By now it is a vague memory. ... outboard? ;-) ... in a well
            Message 5 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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              I remember seeing a hydraulic drive auxiliary system advertised in
              SAIL, decades ago. By now it is a vague memory.

              --- In bolger@egroups.com, Gordon Couger <gcouger@r...> wrote:
              >
              > From: "Roger Dewhurst" <dewhurst@w...>
              > > >
              > > >Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an
              outboard?
              ;-)
              > >
              > > Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard
              in a well
              > > just forward of the transom?
              >
              > What a novel idea.
              >
              > Gordon
            • Roger Dewhurst
              ... You are lucky. Perhaps we need to tote a little more artillery! ... Have you seen those motor mount boards that lie parallel to the transom on a
              Message 6 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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                At 18:13 2/05/00 -0500, you wrote:
                >We don't seem to have the thievery problem here in gun-totin' Southeast
                >USA...

                You are lucky. Perhaps we need to tote a little more artillery!
                >
                >I didn't like the fumes (2-stroke), noise, or the drag (my well was small,
                >couldn't tilt the outboard for sailing).

                Have you seen those motor mount boards that lie parallel to the transom on a
                parallelogram frame which has horizontal pivoting axes also parallel to the
                transom. Mounted on these you simply lift the motor with a bit of help from
                a pair of big springs. You may even have to push the motor down to lock it
                in the drive position.

                >Also, it takes up valuable space
                >and cuts out a lot of planing area aft in a planing boat. There, that's my
                >whole rant.


                >
              • Jeff Gilbert
                Don, if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top of the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull the
                Message 7 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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                  Don,
                  if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top of
                  the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull the
                  motor out (it better be under 10hp) and put a prawn cooking wire cage in you
                  can have a pretty good shower. Also the new 4-strokes are pretty quiet (but
                  as youve doubtless noticed you pay plenty for what you dont get...noise!)
                  Whats probably worse, none the less it won a "Cruising World Design
                  Competition & put him on the "Map", is Dud Dix's 32foot mono with the diesel
                  under the Saloon Table.
                  Cheers
                  Jeff Gilbert


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Donald Hodges <dhodges@...>
                  To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 11:08 PM
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine


                  If you are taking a poll, I vote against an outboard in a well - I'll spare
                  you my whole rant, but just imagine an outboard as a close companion inside
                  a small boat - I did it once in a 26 footer, never again!

                  Don Hodges
                • Peter Vanderwaart
                  ... Design ... the diesel ... For better or worse, engines in the middle of the cabin are very common in racing boats. Peter
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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                    > Whats probably worse, none the less it won a "Cruising World
                    Design
                    > Competition & put him on the "Map", is Dud Dix's 32foot mono with
                    the diesel
                    > under the Saloon Table.

                    For better or worse, engines in the middle of the cabin are very
                    common in racing boats.

                    Peter
                  • Donald Hodges
                    We don t seem to have the thievery problem here in gun-totin Southeast USA... I didn t like the fumes (2-stroke), noise, or the drag (my well was small,
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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                      We don't seem to have the thievery problem here in gun-totin' Southeast
                      USA...

                      I didn't like the fumes (2-stroke), noise, or the drag (my well was small,
                      couldn't tilt the outboard for sailing). Also, it takes up valuable space
                      and cuts out a lot of planing area aft in a planing boat. There, that's my
                      whole rant.

                      Don Hodges
                      dhodges@...
                      http://www.ecoastlife.com
                      Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
                      Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@...>
                      To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 8:13 AM
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine


                      >
                      > > if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top
                      of
                      > >the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull
                      the
                      > >motor out (it better be under 10hp) and put a prawn cooking wire cage in
                      you
                      > >can have a pretty good shower. Also the new 4-strokes are pretty quiet
                      (but
                      > >as youve doubtless noticed you pay plenty for what you dont get...noise!)
                      > >
                      >
                      > Some additional advantages perhaps:-
                      >
                      > The motor is not bumping around on the transom while towing.
                      >
                      > It is not exposed to tempt the thief.
                      >
                      > Old hacksaw blades can be embedded in the wood laminate of the covering
                      box
                      > making it exceedingly difficult for the thief to cut the box off to get at
                      > the motor. Thieves here have been known to cut the whole transom out with
                      a
                      > chain saw to get the motor! If I intended to hang the motor on the
                      transom
                      > I would embed old hacksaw blades in the transom laminate!
                      >
                      > Roger.
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > Now the best and coolest websites come right to you based on your
                      > unique interests. eTour.com is surfing without searching.
                      > And, it's FREE!
                      > http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/6/_/3457/_/957303860/
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • edward haile
                      Hi Gordon, Have you heard of The Electric Wheel ? I picked up a brochure at the Annapolis boat show in 97 or 98, and I am still not quite sure what it is. I
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 2, 2000
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                        Hi Gordon,

                        Have you heard of "The Electric Wheel"? I picked up a brochure at the
                        Annapolis boat show in '97 or '98, and I am still not quite sure what it is.
                        I quote from the brochure:

                        "The sailboat did 6k for 17-1/2 hrs (1200 watts burn rate) from a single
                        charge, with three solar panels and regenerative feedback." "The sailboat
                        did 2.7k with only one motor, demonstrating the redundant emergency
                        operation." The boat was an old 33' mahogany yacht. The principle seems to
                        be very high power at very low rpm. Weighs 50lbs.

                        Ed Haile


                        >From: Gordon Couger <gcouger@...>
                        >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                        >To: bolger@...
                        >Subject: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                        >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:08:52 -0500
                        >
                        >I was looking at this issue of MIB and noticing what an intrusion the
                        >engine compartment made in Bolger's small cruiser.
                        >
                        >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
                        >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
                        >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
                        >about 2 hp. It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them but
                        >a 2 hp electric motor will do about the same work as a 4 or 5 hp
                        >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
                        >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
                        >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
                        >lone periods of time.
                        >
                        >I see several advantages to the system. First the motor starts
                        >instantly every time when running off batteries. The shaft can be
                        >parallel to the thrust line because the motor can be mounted
                        >in the keel. You have a great deal more control of the motor
                        >a low RPM. The IC motor does not have sit smack in the middle
                        >of the boat just where you want to be it could be mounted to one
                        >side under the seat and the batteries mounted on the opposite side
                        >to balance the weight. Most of the time you could run on batteries
                        >alone with no need of the IC engine. Some folks would probably
                        >not even install and IC engine If all they needed and auxiliary for
                        >was to clear the harbor and maneuver in tight spots.
                        >
                        >I see a few draw backs as well. Over all higher cost. More parts
                        >make more places for problems and more cost of maintenance. Poorer
                        >over all efficiency. If you had to make a long run on the auxiliary you
                        >would probably need a bigger IC engine to get the same performance
                        >as a conventional set up.
                        >
                        >Just some thoughts.
                        >
                        >Gordon
                        >
                        >Gordon Couger gcouger@...
                        >
                        >Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
                        >405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
                        >
                        >

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                      • Lincoln Ross
                        I d be skeptical. As I recall, 1200 watts is less than 2 hp, and that s presumably before mechanical and electrical losses. Now if they said 12,000 watts,
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 3, 2000
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                          I'd be skeptical. As I recall, 1200 watts is less than 2 hp, and
                          that's presumably before mechanical and electrical losses. Now if
                          they
                          said 12,000 watts, maybe. And how do you get "regenerative feedback"?
                          Wheels with brakes?

                          --- In bolger@egroups.com, "edward haile" <ewhaile@h...> wrote:
                          > Hi Gordon,
                          >
                          > Have you heard of "The Electric Wheel"? I picked up a brochure at
                          the
                          > Annapolis boat show in '97 or '98, and I am still not quite sure
                          what it is.
                          > I quote from the brochure:
                          >
                          > "The sailboat did 6k for 17-1/2 hrs (1200 watts burn rate) from a
                          single
                          > charge, with three solar panels and regenerative feedback." "The
                          sailboat
                          > did 2.7k with only one motor, demonstrating the redundant emergency
                          > operation." The boat was an old 33' mahogany yacht. The principle
                          seems to
                          > be very high power at very low rpm. Weighs 50lbs.
                          >
                          > Ed Haile
                          >
                          >
                          > >From: Gordon Couger <gcouger@r...>
                          > >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                          > >To: bolger@e...
                          > >Subject: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                          > >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:08:52 -0500
                          > >
                          > >I was looking at this issue of MIB and noticing what an intrusion
                          the
                          > >engine compartment made in Bolger's small cruiser.
                          > >
                          > >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
                          > >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
                          > >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
                          > >about 2 hp. It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them but
                          > >a 2 hp electric motor will do about the same work as a 4 or 5 hp
                          > >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
                          > >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
                          > >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
                          > >lone periods of time.
                          > >
                          > >I see several advantages to the system. First the motor starts
                          > >instantly every time when running off batteries. The shaft can be
                          > >parallel to the thrust line because the motor can be mounted
                          > >in the keel. You have a great deal more control of the motor
                          > >a low RPM. The IC motor does not have sit smack in the middle
                          > >of the boat just where you want to be it could be mounted to one
                          > >side under the seat and the batteries mounted on the opposite side
                          > >to balance the weight. Most of the time you could run on batteries
                          > >alone with no need of the IC engine. Some folks would probably
                          > >not even install and IC engine If all they needed and auxiliary for
                          > >was to clear the harbor and maneuver in tight spots.
                          > >
                          > >I see a few draw backs as well. Over all higher cost. More parts
                          > >make more places for problems and more cost of maintenance. Poorer
                          > >over all efficiency. If you had to make a long run on the
                          auxiliary
                          you
                          > >would probably need a bigger IC engine to get the same performance
                          > >as a conventional set up.
                          > >
                          > >Just some thoughts.
                          > >
                          > >Gordon
                          > >
                          > >Gordon Couger gcouger@c...
                          > >
                          > >Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
                          > >405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          __
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                        • edward haile
                          Hi Lincoln Ross, I m not even at the skeptical stage. All I have is a brochure & claims that this is something unique and unmatched in boat propulsion. The
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 3, 2000
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                            Hi Lincoln Ross,

                            I'm not even at the skeptical stage. All I have is a brochure & claims that
                            this is something unique and unmatched in boat propulsion. "The Wheel is
                            more powerful, energy efficient, reliable and carefree than any other gas or
                            diesel engine, or electric motor of comparable horsepower in use today."
                            They are up to something, I don't know what. I mentioned it to see if
                            anybody out there knew more, and the subject came up. Regeneration they say
                            comes from a spinning prop as the boat sails. That sort of thing, along with
                            windvane and solar panels. My guess is it's a very efficient electric motor,
                            two, infact, with 8 moving parts and no grease or oil. Maintenance free
                            after 3 years in salt water. It says it relies on ten deepcycle batteries. A
                            bit more than 50lbs, I'd say. But then IC engines don't include the weight
                            of fuel tanks, do they? Anyhow, talk to Solomon Technologies in Benedict,
                            Maryland 301-274-4479.

                            Ed Haile
                            >From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>
                            >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                            >To: bolger@egroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                            >Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:40:26 -0000
                            >
                            >I'd be skeptical. As I recall, 1200 watts is less than 2 hp, and
                            >that's presumably before mechanical and electrical losses. Now if
                            >they
                            >said 12,000 watts, maybe. And how do you get "regenerative feedback"?
                            >Wheels with brakes?
                            >
                            >--- In bolger@egroups.com, "edward haile" <ewhaile@h...> wrote:
                            > > Hi Gordon,
                            > >
                            > > Have you heard of "The Electric Wheel"? I picked up a brochure at
                            >the
                            > > Annapolis boat show in '97 or '98, and I am still not quite sure
                            >what it is.
                            > > I quote from the brochure:
                            > >
                            > > "The sailboat did 6k for 17-1/2 hrs (1200 watts burn rate) from a
                            >single
                            > > charge, with three solar panels and regenerative feedback." "The
                            >sailboat
                            > > did 2.7k with only one motor, demonstrating the redundant emergency
                            > > operation." The boat was an old 33' mahogany yacht. The principle
                            >seems to
                            > > be very high power at very low rpm. Weighs 50lbs.
                            > >
                            > > Ed Haile
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >From: Gordon Couger <gcouger@r...>
                            > > >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                            > > >To: bolger@e...
                            > > >Subject: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                            > > >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:08:52 -0500
                            > > >
                            > > >I was looking at this issue of MIB and noticing what an intrusion
                            >the
                            > > >engine compartment made in Bolger's small cruiser.
                            > > >
                            > > >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
                            > > >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
                            > > >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
                            > > >about 2 hp. It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them but
                            > > >a 2 hp electric motor will do about the same work as a 4 or 5 hp
                            > > >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
                            > > >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
                            > > >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
                            > > >lone periods of time.
                            > > >
                            > > >I see several advantages to the system. First the motor starts
                            > > >instantly every time when running off batteries. The shaft can be
                            > > >parallel to the thrust line because the motor can be mounted
                            > > >in the keel. You have a great deal more control of the motor
                            > > >a low RPM. The IC motor does not have sit smack in the middle
                            > > >of the boat just where you want to be it could be mounted to one
                            > > >side under the seat and the batteries mounted on the opposite side
                            > > >to balance the weight. Most of the time you could run on batteries
                            > > >alone with no need of the IC engine. Some folks would probably
                            > > >not even install and IC engine If all they needed and auxiliary for
                            > > >was to clear the harbor and maneuver in tight spots.
                            > > >
                            > > >I see a few draw backs as well. Over all higher cost. More parts
                            > > >make more places for problems and more cost of maintenance. Poorer
                            > > >over all efficiency. If you had to make a long run on the
                            >auxiliary
                            >you
                            > > >would probably need a bigger IC engine to get the same performance
                            > > >as a conventional set up.
                            > > >
                            > > >Just some thoughts.
                            > > >
                            > > >Gordon
                            > > >
                            > > >Gordon Couger gcouger@c...
                            > > >
                            > > >Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
                            > > >405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >______________________________________________________________________
                            >__
                            > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
                            >http://www.hotmail.com
                            >

                            ________________________________________________________________________
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                          • Gordon Couger
                            From: edward haile To: ... that ... or ... say ... with ... motor, ... A ... As stated in the laws of
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 3, 2000
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                              From: "edward haile" <ewhaile@...>
                              To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                              >
                              > I'm not even at the skeptical stage. All I have is a brochure & claims
                              that
                              > this is something unique and unmatched in boat propulsion. "The Wheel is
                              > more powerful, energy efficient, reliable and carefree than any other gas
                              or
                              > diesel engine, or electric motor of comparable horsepower in use today."
                              > They are up to something, I don't know what. I mentioned it to see if
                              > anybody out there knew more, and the subject came up. Regeneration they
                              say
                              > comes from a spinning prop as the boat sails. That sort of thing, along
                              with
                              > windvane and solar panels. My guess is it's a very efficient electric
                              motor,
                              > two, infact, with 8 moving parts and no grease or oil. Maintenance free
                              > after 3 years in salt water. It says it relies on ten deepcycle batteries.
                              A
                              > bit more than 50lbs, I'd say. But then IC engines don't include the weight
                              > of fuel tanks, do they? Anyhow, talk to Solomon Technologies in Benedict,
                              > Maryland 301-274-4479.
                              >

                              As stated in the laws of thermodymaics there is no free lunch. If you use
                              wind
                              chargers and the spinning prop you pay for it in increased drag. If the wind
                              is strong enough to make hull speed it comes at a pretty small penalty.

                              The difference in effencies of electric motors is less than 10 precent for
                              the
                              regular to the best so you don't get much that way.

                              The only way to get distance is for the boat to be moving slowly so it
                              doesn't
                              make much drag.

                              There is nothing wrong with that.

                              There is a magnisum battery that produces electricity from a reaction with
                              salt
                              water. It is not a very good battery it has high internal resistance so the
                              voltage
                              falls very rapidly as current draw increases but I might be a way to store
                              fuel
                              for emergencies.The battery is consumed in the process. But it might be
                              worth looking into if you use an electric aux insted of a hyred system.

                              I think electric only aux motors would only be approiate in limited
                              conditions.
                              I think it would work great in Corpus Christy Bay and lousy if you were
                              crusing the inter coastal canal and totaly sensless for off shore crusing.

                              Gordon W5RED

                              G. C. Couger gcouger@... Stillwater, OK
                              www.couger.com/gcouger
                              "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky
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