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Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine

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  • Roger Dewhurst
    ... You are going to need 5mm diameter copper wire to carry that current! ... I do not think that the efficiency would be quite that low. ... Say you have got
    Message 1 of 21 , May 1, 2000
      >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
      >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
      >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
      >about 2 hp.

      You are going to need 5mm diameter copper wire to carry that current!

      > It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them

      I do not think that the efficiency would be quite that low.

      >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
      >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
      >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
      >long periods of time.

      Say you have got a couple of 40 ampere-hour batteries, you are not going to
      get an hour running time. You are not going to make do with ordinary car
      batteries either.

      Roger.
    • Roger Dewhurst
      ... I made some enquiries in this direction. There are some very nice infinitely geared reversible pump/motor combinations, but they are not that efficient
      Message 2 of 21 , May 1, 2000
        > How about using a hydraulic pump on the ic engine, and a hydraulic
        >motor in the keel. Then there are no batteries, and yet you still have
        >the ability to mount the engine anywhere. You would also have near the
        >efficiency of the original set up. I don't think this would cost any
        >more than your electric conversion.

        I made some enquiries in this direction. There are some very nice
        infinitely geared reversible pump/motor combinations, but they are not that
        efficient with small engines.


        Roger.
      • Stan Muller
        Hi Gordon, How about using a hydraulic pump on the ic engine, and a hydraulic motor in the keel. Then there are no batteries, and yet you still have the
        Message 3 of 21 , May 1, 2000
          Hi Gordon,
          How about using a hydraulic pump on the ic engine, and a hydraulic
          motor in the keel. Then there are no batteries, and yet you still have
          the ability to mount the engine anywhere. You would also have near the
          efficiency of the original set up. I don't think this would cost any
          more than your electric conversion.
          Just another thought for your thought.
          All the best, Stan, Micro Tugger, Snow Goose
        • Stan Muller
          ... Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How bout an outboard? ;-) Stan, Micro Tugger, Snow Goose
          Message 4 of 21 , May 1, 2000
            > I made some enquiries in this direction. There are some very nice
            > infinitely geared reversible pump/motor combinations, but they are not that
            > efficient with small engines.
            >

            Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an outboard? ;-)
            Stan, Micro Tugger, Snow Goose
          • KF4call@aol.com
            Well if money was no object....I see where Toyota and some others use both internal combustion and electric with a computer to tell it all when to run off of
            Message 5 of 21 , May 1, 2000
              Well if money was no object....I see where Toyota and some others use both
              internal combustion and electric with a computer to tell it all when to run
              off of which powerplant using what kind of power source. On their car I
              think the IC can drive either an alternator to run the electric motor or can
              be used for direct drive...And for a boat, if drag could be tolerated, the
              prop could turn the alternator when sailing. What great fun to think about a
              test vessel... "Hey, It could happen"....Regards, Warren
            • Gordon Couger
              From: Roger Dewhurst To: ... ========= a 24 or 32 volt system would be a lot better. ... ============= Maybe not
              Message 6 of 21 , May 1, 2000
                From: "Roger Dewhurst" <dewhurst@...>
                To: <bolger@...>



                >
                > >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
                > >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
                > >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
                > >about 2 hp.
                >
                > You are going to need 5mm diameter copper wire to carry that current!
                =========
                a 24 or 32 volt system would be a lot better.
                >
                > > It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them
                >
                > I do not think that the efficiency would be quite that low.
                =============
                Maybe not but to run a 2 hp electic motor will take at least
                5HP or more.
                >
                > >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
                > >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
                > >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
                > >long periods of time.
                >
                > Say you have got a couple of 40 ampere-hour batteries, you are not going
                to
                > get an hour running time. You are not going to make do with ordinary car
                > batteries either.
                =====
                Golf cart batteries are the thing. An electric system would not make
                sense if you were using it as a motor sailer but it would if you need
                power for docking clearing channels and emergency get to the house
                at 80% of hull speed or so.

                Gordon W5RED

                G. C. Couger gcouger@... Stillwater, OK
                www.couger.com/gcouger
                "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky
              • Gordon Couger
                ... From: Stan Muller To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine ... lo
                Message 7 of 21 , May 1, 2000
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Stan Muller" <smuller@...>
                  To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 9:57 PM
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine


                  > Hi Gordon,
                  > How about using a hydraulic pump on the ic engine, and a hydraulic
                  > motor in the keel. Then there are no batteries, and yet you still have
                  > the ability to mount the engine anywhere. You would also have near the
                  > efficiency of the original set up. I don't think this would cost any
                  > more than your electric conversion.
                  > Just another thought for your thought.
                  > All the best, Stan, Micro Tugger, Snow Goose

                  'lo Stan,

                  Hydraulics might be a consideration for 30 to 80 hp systems. They
                  don't have the instant start of the electric system that I think is it's
                  biggest benefit.

                  Gordon
                • Roger Dewhurst
                  ... Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard in a well just forward of the transom? Roger
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 1, 2000
                    At 22:27 1/05/00 -0500, you wrote:
                    >> I made some enquiries in this direction. There are some very nice
                    >> infinitely geared reversible pump/motor combinations, but they are not that
                    >> efficient with small engines.
                    >>
                    >
                    >Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an outboard? ;-)

                    Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard in a well
                    just forward of the transom?

                    Roger
                  • Gordon Couger
                    From: Roger Dewhurst ... What a novel idea. Gordon
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 1, 2000
                      From: "Roger Dewhurst" <dewhurst@...>
                      > >
                      > >Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an outboard? ;-)
                      >
                      > Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard in a well
                      > just forward of the transom?

                      What a novel idea.

                      Gordon
                    • Donald Hodges
                      If you are taking a poll, I vote against an outboard in a well - I ll spare you my whole rant, but just imagine an outboard as a close companion inside a small
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                        If you are taking a poll, I vote against an outboard in a well - I'll spare
                        you my whole rant, but just imagine an outboard as a close companion inside
                        a small boat - I did it once in a 26 footer, never again!

                        Don Hodges
                        dhodges@...
                        http://www.ecoastlife.com
                        Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
                        Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@...>
                        To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 11:25 PM
                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine


                        > At 22:27 1/05/00 -0500, you wrote:
                        > >> I made some enquiries in this direction. There are some very nice
                        > >> infinitely geared reversible pump/motor combinations, but they are not
                        that
                        > >> efficient with small engines.
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an outboard? ;-)
                        >
                        > Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard in a well
                        > just forward of the transom?
                        >
                        > Roger
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                        >
                        >
                      • Roger Dewhurst
                        ... Hydraulic pump/motor combinations are common enough in general industrial situations. It is not necessary to look for special marine versions. But
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                          At 16:35 2/05/00 -0000, you wrote:
                          >I remember seeing a hydraulic drive auxiliary system advertised in
                          >SAIL, decades ago. By now it is a vague memory.
                          >

                          Hydraulic pump/motor combinations are common enough in general industrial
                          situations. It is not necessary to look for special marine versions. But
                          consider the efficiencies of both pump and motor and the head losses
                          involved in pumping hydraulic oil around before going down this track.

                          Roger.
                        • Roger Dewhurst
                          ... Some additional advantages perhaps:- The motor is not bumping around on the transom while towing. It is not exposed to tempt the thief. Old hacksaw blades
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                            > if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top of
                            >the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull the
                            >motor out (it better be under 10hp) and put a prawn cooking wire cage in you
                            >can have a pretty good shower. Also the new 4-strokes are pretty quiet (but
                            >as youve doubtless noticed you pay plenty for what you dont get...noise!)
                            >

                            Some additional advantages perhaps:-

                            The motor is not bumping around on the transom while towing.

                            It is not exposed to tempt the thief.

                            Old hacksaw blades can be embedded in the wood laminate of the covering box
                            making it exceedingly difficult for the thief to cut the box off to get at
                            the motor. Thieves here have been known to cut the whole transom out with a
                            chain saw to get the motor! If I intended to hang the motor on the transom
                            I would embed old hacksaw blades in the transom laminate!

                            Roger.
                          • Lincoln Ross
                            I remember seeing a hydraulic drive auxiliary system advertised in SAIL, decades ago. By now it is a vague memory. ... outboard? ;-) ... in a well
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                              I remember seeing a hydraulic drive auxiliary system advertised in
                              SAIL, decades ago. By now it is a vague memory.

                              --- In bolger@egroups.com, Gordon Couger <gcouger@r...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: "Roger Dewhurst" <dewhurst@w...>
                              > > >
                              > > >Well that burst my bubble! Next thought, How 'bout an
                              outboard?
                              ;-)
                              > >
                              > > Sorry, where to you keep your bubble!!!!! How about an outboard
                              in a well
                              > > just forward of the transom?
                              >
                              > What a novel idea.
                              >
                              > Gordon
                            • Roger Dewhurst
                              ... You are lucky. Perhaps we need to tote a little more artillery! ... Have you seen those motor mount boards that lie parallel to the transom on a
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                                At 18:13 2/05/00 -0500, you wrote:
                                >We don't seem to have the thievery problem here in gun-totin' Southeast
                                >USA...

                                You are lucky. Perhaps we need to tote a little more artillery!
                                >
                                >I didn't like the fumes (2-stroke), noise, or the drag (my well was small,
                                >couldn't tilt the outboard for sailing).

                                Have you seen those motor mount boards that lie parallel to the transom on a
                                parallelogram frame which has horizontal pivoting axes also parallel to the
                                transom. Mounted on these you simply lift the motor with a bit of help from
                                a pair of big springs. You may even have to push the motor down to lock it
                                in the drive position.

                                >Also, it takes up valuable space
                                >and cuts out a lot of planing area aft in a planing boat. There, that's my
                                >whole rant.


                                >
                              • Jeff Gilbert
                                Don, if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top of the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull the
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                                  Don,
                                  if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top of
                                  the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull the
                                  motor out (it better be under 10hp) and put a prawn cooking wire cage in you
                                  can have a pretty good shower. Also the new 4-strokes are pretty quiet (but
                                  as youve doubtless noticed you pay plenty for what you dont get...noise!)
                                  Whats probably worse, none the less it won a "Cruising World Design
                                  Competition & put him on the "Map", is Dud Dix's 32foot mono with the diesel
                                  under the Saloon Table.
                                  Cheers
                                  Jeff Gilbert


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Donald Hodges <dhodges@...>
                                  To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 11:08 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine


                                  If you are taking a poll, I vote against an outboard in a well - I'll spare
                                  you my whole rant, but just imagine an outboard as a close companion inside
                                  a small boat - I did it once in a 26 footer, never again!

                                  Don Hodges
                                • Peter Vanderwaart
                                  ... Design ... the diesel ... For better or worse, engines in the middle of the cabin are very common in racing boats. Peter
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                                    > Whats probably worse, none the less it won a "Cruising World
                                    Design
                                    > Competition & put him on the "Map", is Dud Dix's 32foot mono with
                                    the diesel
                                    > under the Saloon Table.

                                    For better or worse, engines in the middle of the cabin are very
                                    common in racing boats.

                                    Peter
                                  • Donald Hodges
                                    We don t seem to have the thievery problem here in gun-totin Southeast USA... I didn t like the fumes (2-stroke), noise, or the drag (my well was small,
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                                      We don't seem to have the thievery problem here in gun-totin' Southeast
                                      USA...

                                      I didn't like the fumes (2-stroke), noise, or the drag (my well was small,
                                      couldn't tilt the outboard for sailing). Also, it takes up valuable space
                                      and cuts out a lot of planing area aft in a planing boat. There, that's my
                                      whole rant.

                                      Don Hodges
                                      dhodges@...
                                      http://www.ecoastlife.com
                                      Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
                                      Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Roger Dewhurst <dewhurst@...>
                                      To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 8:13 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine


                                      >
                                      > > if you put a hatch/fishing table with some lagging under over the top
                                      of
                                      > >the motor box, they are quieter than hanging on the transom. If you pull
                                      the
                                      > >motor out (it better be under 10hp) and put a prawn cooking wire cage in
                                      you
                                      > >can have a pretty good shower. Also the new 4-strokes are pretty quiet
                                      (but
                                      > >as youve doubtless noticed you pay plenty for what you dont get...noise!)
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Some additional advantages perhaps:-
                                      >
                                      > The motor is not bumping around on the transom while towing.
                                      >
                                      > It is not exposed to tempt the thief.
                                      >
                                      > Old hacksaw blades can be embedded in the wood laminate of the covering
                                      box
                                      > making it exceedingly difficult for the thief to cut the box off to get at
                                      > the motor. Thieves here have been known to cut the whole transom out with
                                      a
                                      > chain saw to get the motor! If I intended to hang the motor on the
                                      transom
                                      > I would embed old hacksaw blades in the transom laminate!
                                      >
                                      > Roger.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > Now the best and coolest websites come right to you based on your
                                      > unique interests. eTour.com is surfing without searching.
                                      > And, it's FREE!
                                      > http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/6/_/3457/_/957303860/
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • edward haile
                                      Hi Gordon, Have you heard of The Electric Wheel ? I picked up a brochure at the Annapolis boat show in 97 or 98, and I am still not quite sure what it is. I
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 2, 2000
                                        Hi Gordon,

                                        Have you heard of "The Electric Wheel"? I picked up a brochure at the
                                        Annapolis boat show in '97 or '98, and I am still not quite sure what it is.
                                        I quote from the brochure:

                                        "The sailboat did 6k for 17-1/2 hrs (1200 watts burn rate) from a single
                                        charge, with three solar panels and regenerative feedback." "The sailboat
                                        did 2.7k with only one motor, demonstrating the redundant emergency
                                        operation." The boat was an old 33' mahogany yacht. The principle seems to
                                        be very high power at very low rpm. Weighs 50lbs.

                                        Ed Haile


                                        >From: Gordon Couger <gcouger@...>
                                        >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                                        >To: bolger@...
                                        >Subject: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                                        >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:08:52 -0500
                                        >
                                        >I was looking at this issue of MIB and noticing what an intrusion the
                                        >engine compartment made in Bolger's small cruiser.
                                        >
                                        >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
                                        >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
                                        >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
                                        >about 2 hp. It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them but
                                        >a 2 hp electric motor will do about the same work as a 4 or 5 hp
                                        >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
                                        >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
                                        >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
                                        >lone periods of time.
                                        >
                                        >I see several advantages to the system. First the motor starts
                                        >instantly every time when running off batteries. The shaft can be
                                        >parallel to the thrust line because the motor can be mounted
                                        >in the keel. You have a great deal more control of the motor
                                        >a low RPM. The IC motor does not have sit smack in the middle
                                        >of the boat just where you want to be it could be mounted to one
                                        >side under the seat and the batteries mounted on the opposite side
                                        >to balance the weight. Most of the time you could run on batteries
                                        >alone with no need of the IC engine. Some folks would probably
                                        >not even install and IC engine If all they needed and auxiliary for
                                        >was to clear the harbor and maneuver in tight spots.
                                        >
                                        >I see a few draw backs as well. Over all higher cost. More parts
                                        >make more places for problems and more cost of maintenance. Poorer
                                        >over all efficiency. If you had to make a long run on the auxiliary you
                                        >would probably need a bigger IC engine to get the same performance
                                        >as a conventional set up.
                                        >
                                        >Just some thoughts.
                                        >
                                        >Gordon
                                        >
                                        >Gordon Couger gcouger@...
                                        >
                                        >Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
                                        >405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
                                        >
                                        >

                                        ________________________________________________________________________
                                        Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
                                      • Lincoln Ross
                                        I d be skeptical. As I recall, 1200 watts is less than 2 hp, and that s presumably before mechanical and electrical losses. Now if they said 12,000 watts,
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 3, 2000
                                          I'd be skeptical. As I recall, 1200 watts is less than 2 hp, and
                                          that's presumably before mechanical and electrical losses. Now if
                                          they
                                          said 12,000 watts, maybe. And how do you get "regenerative feedback"?
                                          Wheels with brakes?

                                          --- In bolger@egroups.com, "edward haile" <ewhaile@h...> wrote:
                                          > Hi Gordon,
                                          >
                                          > Have you heard of "The Electric Wheel"? I picked up a brochure at
                                          the
                                          > Annapolis boat show in '97 or '98, and I am still not quite sure
                                          what it is.
                                          > I quote from the brochure:
                                          >
                                          > "The sailboat did 6k for 17-1/2 hrs (1200 watts burn rate) from a
                                          single
                                          > charge, with three solar panels and regenerative feedback." "The
                                          sailboat
                                          > did 2.7k with only one motor, demonstrating the redundant emergency
                                          > operation." The boat was an old 33' mahogany yacht. The principle
                                          seems to
                                          > be very high power at very low rpm. Weighs 50lbs.
                                          >
                                          > Ed Haile
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >From: Gordon Couger <gcouger@r...>
                                          > >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                                          > >To: bolger@e...
                                          > >Subject: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                                          > >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:08:52 -0500
                                          > >
                                          > >I was looking at this issue of MIB and noticing what an intrusion
                                          the
                                          > >engine compartment made in Bolger's small cruiser.
                                          > >
                                          > >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
                                          > >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
                                          > >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
                                          > >about 2 hp. It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them but
                                          > >a 2 hp electric motor will do about the same work as a 4 or 5 hp
                                          > >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
                                          > >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
                                          > >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
                                          > >lone periods of time.
                                          > >
                                          > >I see several advantages to the system. First the motor starts
                                          > >instantly every time when running off batteries. The shaft can be
                                          > >parallel to the thrust line because the motor can be mounted
                                          > >in the keel. You have a great deal more control of the motor
                                          > >a low RPM. The IC motor does not have sit smack in the middle
                                          > >of the boat just where you want to be it could be mounted to one
                                          > >side under the seat and the batteries mounted on the opposite side
                                          > >to balance the weight. Most of the time you could run on batteries
                                          > >alone with no need of the IC engine. Some folks would probably
                                          > >not even install and IC engine If all they needed and auxiliary for
                                          > >was to clear the harbor and maneuver in tight spots.
                                          > >
                                          > >I see a few draw backs as well. Over all higher cost. More parts
                                          > >make more places for problems and more cost of maintenance. Poorer
                                          > >over all efficiency. If you had to make a long run on the
                                          auxiliary
                                          you
                                          > >would probably need a bigger IC engine to get the same performance
                                          > >as a conventional set up.
                                          > >
                                          > >Just some thoughts.
                                          > >
                                          > >Gordon
                                          > >
                                          > >Gordon Couger gcouger@c...
                                          > >
                                          > >Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
                                          > >405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          ______________________________________________________________________
                                          __
                                          > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
                                          http://www.hotmail.com
                                        • edward haile
                                          Hi Lincoln Ross, I m not even at the skeptical stage. All I have is a brochure & claims that this is something unique and unmatched in boat propulsion. The
                                          Message 20 of 21 , May 3, 2000
                                            Hi Lincoln Ross,

                                            I'm not even at the skeptical stage. All I have is a brochure & claims that
                                            this is something unique and unmatched in boat propulsion. "The Wheel is
                                            more powerful, energy efficient, reliable and carefree than any other gas or
                                            diesel engine, or electric motor of comparable horsepower in use today."
                                            They are up to something, I don't know what. I mentioned it to see if
                                            anybody out there knew more, and the subject came up. Regeneration they say
                                            comes from a spinning prop as the boat sails. That sort of thing, along with
                                            windvane and solar panels. My guess is it's a very efficient electric motor,
                                            two, infact, with 8 moving parts and no grease or oil. Maintenance free
                                            after 3 years in salt water. It says it relies on ten deepcycle batteries. A
                                            bit more than 50lbs, I'd say. But then IC engines don't include the weight
                                            of fuel tanks, do they? Anyhow, talk to Solomon Technologies in Benedict,
                                            Maryland 301-274-4479.

                                            Ed Haile
                                            >From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>
                                            >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                                            >To: bolger@egroups.com
                                            >Subject: Re: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                                            >Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:40:26 -0000
                                            >
                                            >I'd be skeptical. As I recall, 1200 watts is less than 2 hp, and
                                            >that's presumably before mechanical and electrical losses. Now if
                                            >they
                                            >said 12,000 watts, maybe. And how do you get "regenerative feedback"?
                                            >Wheels with brakes?
                                            >
                                            >--- In bolger@egroups.com, "edward haile" <ewhaile@h...> wrote:
                                            > > Hi Gordon,
                                            > >
                                            > > Have you heard of "The Electric Wheel"? I picked up a brochure at
                                            >the
                                            > > Annapolis boat show in '97 or '98, and I am still not quite sure
                                            >what it is.
                                            > > I quote from the brochure:
                                            > >
                                            > > "The sailboat did 6k for 17-1/2 hrs (1200 watts burn rate) from a
                                            >single
                                            > > charge, with three solar panels and regenerative feedback." "The
                                            >sailboat
                                            > > did 2.7k with only one motor, demonstrating the redundant emergency
                                            > > operation." The boat was an old 33' mahogany yacht. The principle
                                            >seems to
                                            > > be very high power at very low rpm. Weighs 50lbs.
                                            > >
                                            > > Ed Haile
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > >From: Gordon Couger <gcouger@r...>
                                            > > >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
                                            > > >To: bolger@e...
                                            > > >Subject: [bolger] Electric auxiliary engine
                                            > > >Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:08:52 -0500
                                            > > >
                                            > > >I was looking at this issue of MIB and noticing what an intrusion
                                            >the
                                            > > >engine compartment made in Bolger's small cruiser.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >Wheels started turning in my head, did a little math and concluded
                                            > > >that a hybrid electric set up would be possible. Using 2 90 amp
                                            > > >12 V alternators to produce about 120 amps would convert to
                                            > > >about 2 hp. It might take a 8 or 10 hp engine to run them but
                                            > > >a 2 hp electric motor will do about the same work as a 4 or 5 hp
                                            > > >IC engine You would not necessarily need a IC engine capable
                                            > > >of developing full power of the electric motor. The battery bank
                                            > > >could greatly increases the output of the electric motor for fairly
                                            > > >lone periods of time.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >I see several advantages to the system. First the motor starts
                                            > > >instantly every time when running off batteries. The shaft can be
                                            > > >parallel to the thrust line because the motor can be mounted
                                            > > >in the keel. You have a great deal more control of the motor
                                            > > >a low RPM. The IC motor does not have sit smack in the middle
                                            > > >of the boat just where you want to be it could be mounted to one
                                            > > >side under the seat and the batteries mounted on the opposite side
                                            > > >to balance the weight. Most of the time you could run on batteries
                                            > > >alone with no need of the IC engine. Some folks would probably
                                            > > >not even install and IC engine If all they needed and auxiliary for
                                            > > >was to clear the harbor and maneuver in tight spots.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >I see a few draw backs as well. Over all higher cost. More parts
                                            > > >make more places for problems and more cost of maintenance. Poorer
                                            > > >over all efficiency. If you had to make a long run on the
                                            >auxiliary
                                            >you
                                            > > >would probably need a bigger IC engine to get the same performance
                                            > > >as a conventional set up.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >Just some thoughts.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >Gordon
                                            > > >
                                            > > >Gordon Couger gcouger@c...
                                            > > >
                                            > > >Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger
                                            > > >405 624-2855 GMT -6:00
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
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                                          • Gordon Couger
                                            From: edward haile To: ... that ... or ... say ... with ... motor, ... A ... As stated in the laws of
                                            Message 21 of 21 , May 3, 2000
                                              From: "edward haile" <ewhaile@...>
                                              To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                                              >
                                              > I'm not even at the skeptical stage. All I have is a brochure & claims
                                              that
                                              > this is something unique and unmatched in boat propulsion. "The Wheel is
                                              > more powerful, energy efficient, reliable and carefree than any other gas
                                              or
                                              > diesel engine, or electric motor of comparable horsepower in use today."
                                              > They are up to something, I don't know what. I mentioned it to see if
                                              > anybody out there knew more, and the subject came up. Regeneration they
                                              say
                                              > comes from a spinning prop as the boat sails. That sort of thing, along
                                              with
                                              > windvane and solar panels. My guess is it's a very efficient electric
                                              motor,
                                              > two, infact, with 8 moving parts and no grease or oil. Maintenance free
                                              > after 3 years in salt water. It says it relies on ten deepcycle batteries.
                                              A
                                              > bit more than 50lbs, I'd say. But then IC engines don't include the weight
                                              > of fuel tanks, do they? Anyhow, talk to Solomon Technologies in Benedict,
                                              > Maryland 301-274-4479.
                                              >

                                              As stated in the laws of thermodymaics there is no free lunch. If you use
                                              wind
                                              chargers and the spinning prop you pay for it in increased drag. If the wind
                                              is strong enough to make hull speed it comes at a pretty small penalty.

                                              The difference in effencies of electric motors is less than 10 precent for
                                              the
                                              regular to the best so you don't get much that way.

                                              The only way to get distance is for the boat to be moving slowly so it
                                              doesn't
                                              make much drag.

                                              There is nothing wrong with that.

                                              There is a magnisum battery that produces electricity from a reaction with
                                              salt
                                              water. It is not a very good battery it has high internal resistance so the
                                              voltage
                                              falls very rapidly as current draw increases but I might be a way to store
                                              fuel
                                              for emergencies.The battery is consumed in the process. But it might be
                                              worth looking into if you use an electric aux insted of a hyred system.

                                              I think electric only aux motors would only be approiate in limited
                                              conditions.
                                              I think it would work great in Corpus Christy Bay and lousy if you were
                                              crusing the inter coastal canal and totaly sensless for off shore crusing.

                                              Gordon W5RED

                                              G. C. Couger gcouger@... Stillwater, OK
                                              www.couger.com/gcouger
                                              "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky
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