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Re: [bolger] Re: Commonsense Skiff

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  • John B. Trussell
    There have been various threads wich suggest that PCB doesn t design racing boats. You might take a look at Paul Gartside s web site--His Flashboat is a
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 3, 2005
      There have been various threads wich suggest that PCB doesn't design
      "racing" boats. You might take a look at Paul Gartside's web site--His
      Flashboat is a very light, very fast row boat and he has camp cruised around
      Alaska in it.

      It appears to me that the rules you described favor a kayak with a sail.
      I've always thought that a two person rowing boat would do well in this sort
      of race--the two rowers could alternate and maintain speed more or less
      continuously; they would also have the ability to row together and buck
      currents if needed.

      I'm way too old and decrepit to participate or even enjoy the kind of boat
      needed for this kind of event, but iy si fun to think about.

      John T
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "gbship" <gbship@...>
      To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 7:57 AM
      Subject: [bolger] Re: Commonsense Skiff


      > >
      > > That's what I was talking about when I mentioned penetration
      > strength.
      > > Sure a Gypsy isn't going to hit logs at 30 knots, but the scantlings
      > > will already be redeuced in proportion to the speed. You can't let
      > the
      > > skins get too thin. 'Too thin' on foam is thinnner than 'too thin' on
      > > ply. Avoiding that was where the extra weight came from.
      > >
      > > Chris
      >
      > Thanks everyone for the thought and advice. I should have explained
      > better the use for this boat. It's for an expedition type competition
      > of around 1,000 miles, give or take, for kayaks and small sailboats.
      > Among the salient features, are you must beach launch your craft (You
      > can use mechanical assistance, but you must carry whatever you use for
      > the entire race), the ability to go under a 9-foot high bridge with 10-
      > foot horizontal clearance, deal with open water and inland waterways
      > churned by powerboat wakes, etc. This race is around the peninsula part
      > of Florida, so at one point, competitors have to go up the St. Mary's
      > river (in S. Georgia) and then portage their boats 40 MILES to the
      > Suwanee. The kayakers balance their boats on a set of wheels, attach
      > the bow to the back of their belt and walk it. They can also tow it
      > with a folding bike -- as long as they carry the bike for the entire
      > race. Obviously this won't work for sailboats, which even in a small
      > size weigh much more. So those comeptitors are allowed to switch to a
      > canoe for the necessary river portions and the portage. You can see the
      > details at Watertribe.com, check the Ultra Florida Challenge section.
      > We're only planning to do the shorter Everglades Challenge in 2006, in
      > our Frolic2, but I'm intrigued with trying the longer race in 2007. My
      > particular itch right now is to wonder if a small sailboat could be
      > built light enough so that switching to the canoe would be unnecessary,
      > even for the portage (which I would do with a bike!).
      >
      > But, alas, I know almost nothing of composite construction, which is
      > why everyone's advice is so helpful and much appreciated. It does no
      > good to have an ultralight hull if it's punctured by a razor sharp
      > shell on an oyster bar, or a cypress knee or mangrove root in the
      > Everglades, or by a rock or log in the Suwanee. The weight concern is
      > why I've been mostly looking at ply instant-type boats in the 125 to
      > 150 pound range and wondering if that weight could be cut in half with
      > composite construction. There are intriguing hints. For example, my 25-
      > 30 pound solid wood mast on the Rolic2 could be replaced by a carbon
      > fiber spar that would weight less than 10 pounds. In Pete Goss' book
      > about single handed racing around the world, he mentions that the bare
      > hull of his 50 footer could be turned over by 6 husky guys --- about
      > what the 1/2 inch ply/fiberglass bare hull weighs on our 30-footer
      > (which is a Gypsy-type hull).
      >
      > BTW Graeme, thanks for the suggestion of the Zephyr, but I ruled that
      > out because while it is an excellent daysailer and can handle some
      > nasty weather, it doesn't row very well, possibly because the 16-inch
      > sides are too high. (I had one for many years, and was very fond of it.)
      >
      > Gary Blankenship
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
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      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
      (978) 282-1349
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    • Gary Lepak
      Gary, For what it s worth, I once built a Bolger Dolphin, (Small Boats, Design #259, 18 x 4 ) out of 3/8 Airex foam with two layers of 6 oz glass inside and
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 3, 2005
        Gary,

        For what it's worth, I once built a Bolger Dolphin, (Small Boats, Design
        #259, 18' x 4') out of 3/8" Airex foam with two layers of 6 oz glass inside
        and out. It was a stripped down rowboat version, no centerboard, rudder or
        rig. It weighed about a 100 lbs. I never weighed it, but two people could
        throw it over their heads like a canoe. It seemed quite tough, and I never
        worried about punctures or breakage. Of course it is a compound curved
        hull so the bulding took some time with lofting and moldmaking, but you
        would get a strong light hull this way. These days I would use Corefoam,
        though it is expensive.

        For a cheaper light boat that would be quicker to build I might try
        lapstrake plywood. You could vary the plank thickness, say 4 to 5 mm on the
        bottom and 3mm topsides.

        Gary Lepak
        Port Angeles, WA
      • Howard Stephenson
        To see a boat that is suitable for South Georgia, go to: http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Shackleton/South/057.jpg Howard ;-]
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 3, 2005
          To see a boat that is suitable for South Georgia, go to:

          http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Shackleton/South/057.jpg

          Howard ;-]

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" <gbship@c...> wrote:

          > so at one point, competitors have to go up the St. Mary's
          > river (in S. Georgia) and then portage their boats 40 MILES
        • graeme19121984
          Perhaps *the* small boat team time trial endurance event.
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 3, 2005
            Perhaps *the* small boat team time trial endurance event.

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
            wrote:
            > To see a boat that is suitable for South Georgia, go to:
            >
            > http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Shackleton/South/057.jpg
            >
            > Howard ;-]
            >
            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" <gbship@c...> wrote:
            >
            > > so at one point, competitors have to go up the St. Mary's
            > > river (in S. Georgia) and then portage their boats 40 MILES
          • James Greene
            Wow, when I was thinking abut glass over foam construction I was considering 1 inch foam or thicker for the hulls. You guys are using foam that s less than
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 3, 2005
              Wow, when I was thinking abut glass over foam construction I was
              considering 1 inch foam or thicker for the hulls. You guys are using
              foam that's less than half this thickness! Interesting ...

              James Greene


              On Jul 3, 2005, at 09:58, gbship wrote:

              > A friend
              > laminated a couple layers of glass on either side of 3/8 inch foam (I
              > think that was the thickness) and you could whack it with a hammer
              > without damage and it was considerably lighter than a ply sandwich
              > would have been. I made some hatches for our Frolic2 of glass over 1/4-
              > inch foam and those are reasonably strong, and very light, but not
              > strong enough for use for a hull.
            • James Greene
              ... I wonder if the cheapest available foam might not be good enough for most small boats, provided it fills the void between the inner and outer skins and
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 3, 2005
                > These days I would use Corefoam,
                > though it is expensive.

                I wonder if the cheapest available foam might not be "good enough" for
                most small boats, provided it fills the void between the inner and
                outer skins and does not separate from them. Does this leave out good
                old fashioned styrofoam I wonder?

                James Greene
              • Clyde Wisner
                I think I used inch and a half foam for my Brick and had to use a lot of glass and epoxy to get strength to stand in. I also made a deck of sorts from 1/4 ply
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 4, 2005
                  I think I used inch and a half foam for my Brick and had to use a lot of
                  glass and epoxy to get strength to stand in. I also made a deck of sorts
                  from 1/4 ply so the sides wouldn't bolge out. Overall, not worth the
                  money in glass and epoxy, and the trouble. If you do go forward, I would
                  think a multi
                  chine rather than large flat areas like the bottom of a Brick. My foam
                  Brick floats upside down of course and almost floated away during
                  Isabell, which might not have been bad. Clyde.


                  James Greene wrote:

                  > > These days I would use Corefoam,
                  > > though it is expensive.
                  >
                  > I wonder if the cheapest available foam might not be "good enough" for
                  > most small boats, provided it fills the void between the inner and
                  > outer skins and does not separate from them. Does this leave out good
                  > old fashioned styrofoam I wonder?
                  >
                  > James Greene
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                  > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Chris Stewart
                  ... the ... at ... side. Consider skin on frame constuction using 26 ounce double ply woven nylon skin. Quoting from UMIAK An Illustrated Guide by Skip
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 4, 2005
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas <cml@t...> wrote:
                    > 'To demonstrate his point, the builder took a hammer and wacked at
                    the
                    > sample panel mightily. With the hammer bouncing off harmlessly, he
                    > offered it confidently to the skeptical architect. Taking the hammer,
                    > the architect turned it claw-side down and -— with virtually no force
                    at
                    > all -— drove it right through Kevlar, the foam, and out the other
                    side.


                    Consider skin on frame constuction using 26 ounce double ply woven
                    nylon skin. Quoting from "UMIAK An Illustrated Guide" by Skip Snaith:
                    "The 26-ounce double-weave nylon skin on Tim's boat was incredibly
                    tough; you could hit it with the claw end of a hammer as hard as you
                    liked, and the hammer would bounce back."

                    Skin on frame can produce very light boats. Platt Monfort's Geodesic
                    Aerolight boats are incredibly light, but probably not strong enough
                    for the Watertribe Challenge. Up the scantlings a bit, with the frame
                    lashed rather than glued to preserve flexibility, and use a much
                    tougher skin and you'd end up with a light, resilient boat.

                    Chris Stewart
                  • Gary Lepak
                    James, The boatbuilding foams like Airex, Corecell and Divinicell are more dense than styrofoam. 5 to 8 lbs per cubic ft. compared to 1.1 (white) to 2 (pink
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 4, 2005
                      James,
                      The boatbuilding foams like Airex, Corecell and Divinicell are more dense
                      than styrofoam. 5 to 8 lbs per cubic ft. compared to 1.1 (white) to 2
                      (pink or blue). The lighter the foam the thicker the skin needs to be to
                      maintain the bond when struck. I've built two boats from blue foam, a tri
                      that didn't last very long made of 1" thick foam with glass/epoxy skins,
                      and a solid foam paddleboard I still have. The board has two layers of 6
                      oz glass in epoxy resin on the bottom and a 3mm ply deck. The two layers of
                      6 are about minimum I think, and it is still easily punctured or dented. It
                      just doesn't matter much if it is, as it still floats, being solid foam. If
                      you are always building boats with epoxy anyway, you fill the dings easily.
                      The ply deck seems to take a lot of abuse without delaminating though, and
                      could make a good boat with 1" foam inside 3mm ply with glass inside, but
                      would probably weigh as much as 1/4" ply. I like using the blue foam though
                      and still use it for things like outrigger floats or sponsons, i.e. solid
                      foam objects with glass skin, rather than as a foam sandwich hull skin .
                      Gary Lepak


                      ----- Original Message ----- > I wonder if the cheapest available foam might
                      not be "good enough" for
                      > most small boats, provided it fills the void between the inner and
                      > outer skins and does not separate from them. Does this leave out good
                      > old fashioned styrofoam I wonder?
                      >
                      > James Greene
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