Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Otter

Expand Messages
  • graeme19121984
    Bruce, congratulations on launching Rose and happy sailing. Thanks yet again for posting wonderful info for the delectation and savouring by we hungry
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 1 6:27 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Bruce,
      congratulations on launching Rose and happy sailing.

      Thanks yet again for posting wonderful info for the delectation and
      savouring by we hungry resource starved Bolgeristas.

      Like Gavin I sigh every time I see that photo of Otter sailing. The
      high resolution black and white shows details somewhat clearer than
      the small colour version I have seen previously.

      When I first saw that colour pic over a year ago I was really taken
      with Otter. BUT confused...

      Around the same time there were posts about David Carnell's Otter.
      He emailed me his brief comments on that boat (too heavy and
      difficult to rig to easily trail; no real problems though some
      reportedly swamped; cramped for two-up cruising; a good sailer). It
      was an Otter ll. Slowly it dawned on my dumb self that it was a very
      different boat to that of Jim Huxford's in the photo. Then someone
      thankfully posted a scan of the profile of Otter ll from the book
      and the gaff rigged Otter ll was obviously different to Otter.

      From the database:
      Otter #231 19'6" x4'10" Sail $100.00 PB&F Daysailer-cruiser -
      leeboard plywood sharpie - ref: SmallBoats Ch#22;

      Otter II #375 19'6'' x 5'10'' Sail PB&F Plywood Cat Yawl
      Cruiser - ref: Diff. Boats Ch#13.

      I'm still uncertain about some things concerning Otter (the one in
      the photo Bruce posted):

      1. is it ketch or yawl rigged?

      2. is the rudder beneath or mounted from the transom?

      3. if aft of the mizzen, what method of tiller solution?

      4. does it have a transom or is it double ended?

      5. two leeboards, or one only changed to the lee side when tacking?

      6. rope slung leeboards?

      7. is the boat heavy?

      8. any ballast?

      9. how good a sailer?

      10. does the jib enhance windward ability?

      11. is the mast stayed ( are those shrouds I can just see in the
      photo)?

      12. is the mast stepped through the cabin top?

      13. if so, how is water entry prevented?

      14. there seems to be no cabin top hatch (as distinct from Otter
      ll), so if (crawling) access is via the aft cabin bulkhead how is
      water entry prevented?

      15. have many been built, any pics?

      16. would the plans still be US$100?

      17. how good a rower?

      18. about when was it designed?

      I imagine it to be similar in shape, size and construction to
      Singlehand Schooner, though obviously not the same rig and not blue
      water capable, but a bit more cabin space and thin water
      gunkholeability. And a smaller project than Birdwatcher.(Are Mr
      Bolger and Friends going to come out with a smaller Birdwatcher
      design, or perhaps the self-righting physics won't work for a
      shorter, narrower boat? I've read here of people contemplating
      Zephyr modification, but don't know if it was carried out.)

      Otter sure looks sweet in that photo. I'd appreciate any info from
      the group that might complete and clarify the picture of Otter I
      have in my mind. A scan (profile?) would be wonderful, anyone? A
      model to wonder at, Bruce?

      fair winds
      graeme


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
      > Here is a photo of an Otter,
      > at a Midwest mess-a-bout
      > circa 1990.
      >
      > Also, that if Jim Michalak's
      > original Birdwatcher and a Micro.
      >
      > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Otter.jpg
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... I certainly am not an expert on Otter, but reading from the book _Small Boats_ I see that Otter is a Cat-Schooner with a Jigger. In other words it has
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 1 8:13 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        > Otter #231 19'6" x4'10" Sail $100.00 PB&F Daysailer-cruiser -
        > leeboard plywood sharpie - ref: SmallBoats Ch#22;
        > 1. is it ketch or yawl rigged?

        I certainly am not an expert on Otter, but reading from
        the book _Small Boats_ I see that Otter is a
        Cat-Schooner with a Jigger. In other words it
        has three masts, and the forward mast is canted
        almost like a forestay. That mast and sail is
        omitted in the photo, I am guessing as a sort of
        reef. The center mast is double, like a gunter.


        > 2. is the rudder beneath or mounted from the transom?

        Transom mounted rudder, and the hull has the same
        kind of classic Bolger sharpie shape as say, a Black
        Skimmer, but smaller of course. The rudder is operated
        with a kind of drag linkage.

        > 5. two leeboards, or one only changed to the lee side when tacking?
        > 6. rope slung leeboards?
        The boards are a kind of exterior dagger board, mounted
        in exterior brackets.

        > 7. is the boat heavy?
        > 8. any ballast?

        Looks pretty lightweight, and I don't think it has
        any hard ballast, but there is some water ballast,
        under a false bottom to the cuddy and cockpit.

        > 9. how good a sailer?
        I bet it is lots of fun!

        > 11. is the mast stayed ( are those shrouds I can just see in the
        > photo)?

        No stays anywhere,

        > 12. is the mast stepped through the cabin top?
        All three masts step through the decks

        > 14. there seems to be no cabin top hatch
        It has a 'crawl in' hatch, like the LF Herreshoff
        Rosinante.

        > 16. would the plans still be US$100?
        Write PB&F and ask, I find it hard to imagine
        they would charge more
        .
        Seek out a copy of the book _Small Boats_
        [$40 +/- on EBay every month or so.]
        The full set of plans and building key are
        reproduced in the book.

        > 17. how good a rower?
        Oar auxilary.


        > 18. about when was it designed?

        Someone else might guess at this, but
        #231 is an early number.

        > I imagine it to be similar in shape, size and construction to

        Ten sheets of plywood.
        It looks like a very simple and fast build. Go for it!
      • dbaldnz
        Hi Graeme, Do you want me to scan the pages from the book and email to you? I don t think Yahoo accept attachments, so send me your personal email address if
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 2 12:19 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Graeme,
          Do you want me to scan the pages from the book and email to you?
          I don't think Yahoo accept attachments, so send me your personal email
          address if you want them-
          DonB
          oink@...
          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Bruce,
          > congratulations on launching Rose and happy sailing.
          >
          > Thanks yet again for posting wonderful info for the delectation and
          > savouring by we hungry resource starved Bolgeristas.
          >
          > Like Gavin I sigh every time I see that photo of Otter sailing. The
          > high resolution black and white shows details somewhat clearer than
          > the small colour version I have seen previously.
          >
          > When I first saw that colour pic over a year ago I was really taken
          > with Otter. BUT confused...
          >
          > Around the same time there were posts about David Carnell's Otter.
          > He emailed me his brief comments on that boat (too heavy and
          > difficult to rig to easily trail; no real problems though some
          > reportedly swamped; cramped for two-up cruising; a good sailer). It
          > was an Otter ll. Slowly it dawned on my dumb self that it was a very
          > different boat to that of Jim Huxford's in the photo. Then someone
          > thankfully posted a scan of the profile of Otter ll from the book
          > and the gaff rigged Otter ll was obviously different to Otter.
          >
          > From the database:
          > Otter #231 19'6" x4'10" Sail $100.00 PB&F Daysailer-cruiser -
          > leeboard plywood sharpie - ref: SmallBoats Ch#22;
          >
          > Otter II #375 19'6'' x 5'10'' Sail PB&F Plywood Cat Yawl
          > Cruiser - ref: Diff. Boats Ch#13.
          >
          > I'm still uncertain about some things concerning Otter (the one in
          > the photo Bruce posted):
          >
          > 1. is it ketch or yawl rigged?
          >
          > 2. is the rudder beneath or mounted from the transom?
          >
          > 3. if aft of the mizzen, what method of tiller solution?
          >
          > 4. does it have a transom or is it double ended?
          >
          > 5. two leeboards, or one only changed to the lee side when tacking?
          >
          > 6. rope slung leeboards?
          >
          > 7. is the boat heavy?
          >
          > 8. any ballast?
          >
          > 9. how good a sailer?
          >
          > 10. does the jib enhance windward ability?
          >
          > 11. is the mast stayed ( are those shrouds I can just see in the
          > photo)?
          >
          > 12. is the mast stepped through the cabin top?
          >
          > 13. if so, how is water entry prevented?
          >
          > 14. there seems to be no cabin top hatch (as distinct from Otter
          > ll), so if (crawling) access is via the aft cabin bulkhead how is
          > water entry prevented?
          >
          > 15. have many been built, any pics?
          >
          > 16. would the plans still be US$100?
          >
          > 17. how good a rower?
          >
          > 18. about when was it designed?
          >
          > I imagine it to be similar in shape, size and construction to
          > Singlehand Schooner, though obviously not the same rig and not blue
          > water capable, but a bit more cabin space and thin water
          > gunkholeability. And a smaller project than Birdwatcher.(Are Mr
          > Bolger and Friends going to come out with a smaller Birdwatcher
          > design, or perhaps the self-righting physics won't work for a
          > shorter, narrower boat? I've read here of people contemplating
          > Zephyr modification, but don't know if it was carried out.)
          >
          > Otter sure looks sweet in that photo. I'd appreciate any info from
          > the group that might complete and clarify the picture of Otter I
          > have in my mind. A scan (profile?) would be wonderful, anyone? A
          > model to wonder at, Bruce?
          >
          > fair winds
          > graeme
          >
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
          > > Here is a photo of an Otter,
          > > at a Midwest mess-a-bout
          > > circa 1990.
          > >
          > > Also, that if Jim Michalak's
          > > original Birdwatcher and a Micro.
          > >
          > > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Otter.jpg
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... Looking more closely at the photo http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Otter.jpg I agree that their rig is not strictly per plans it appears that they have a
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 2 9:05 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            > Otter #231 19'6" x4'10" Sail $100.00 PB&F Daysailer-cruiser -
            > leeboard plywood sharpie - ref: SmallBoats Ch#22;

            Looking more closely at the photo

            http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Otter.jpg

            I agree that their rig is not strictly 'per plans'
            it appears that they have a simple stick for
            the center mast, and that it is stayed with
            three wires. Probably because they didn't
            want the mast puncturing the cuddy roof
            and occupying the center of the cuddy.

            I would like to see a race between an Otter and a AS19.
          • graeme19121984
            Thanks for your help Bruce. ... I think I understand what the as-designed rig is more or less like, however I m surprised to see this. I had gained an
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 2 9:01 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks for your help Bruce.

              >The center mast is double, like a gunter
              I think I understand what the as-designed rig is more or less like,
              however I'm surprised to see this. I had gained an impression that
              PCB did not have a good opinion of the gunter rig.

              > Looks pretty lightweight, and I don't think it has
              > any hard ballast, but there is some water ballast,
              > under a false bottom to the cuddy and cockpit.
              Does it look like the under floor ballast below the cuddy robs too
              much space? I ask this because the scan of Otter ll I've seen has a
              higher cabin top than Otter and even higher cabin top sliding hatch.

              > Seek out a copy of the book _Small Boats_
              > [$40 +/- on EBay every month or so.]
              > The full set of plans and building key are
              > reproduced in the book.
              Surely good advice and I've begun to get to grips with EBay in order
              to read any of those earlier works. Its looked to me that
              international shipping charges price most prospective book purchases
              beyond the acceptable. But if they are personally really worth it
              and will never be available any other way... Perhaps a bulk purchase?
              but surely the *Collected Works* will one day be available on CD or
              whatever...?

              > > 14. there seems to be no cabin top hatch
              > It has a 'crawl in' hatch, like the LF Herreshoff
              > Rosinante.
              We can still crawl so don't mind that at all, but wonder if it has
              a bulkhead extending upwards from the floor to exclude any cockpit
              water from the cabin?

              > Ten sheets of plywood.
              > It looks like a very simple and fast build
              Very simple suits me.

              kind regards
              graeme
            • graeme19121984
              Hi Don, I d greatly appreciate your scanning and emailing pages from the book. I should be able to get attachments via my yahoo email account. I m sure I have
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 2 9:16 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Don,
                I'd greatly appreciate your scanning and emailing pages from the
                book.
                I should be able to get attachments via my yahoo email account. I'm
                sure I have before. Hotmail seems to be problematical. Please let me
                know if bounced. Thanks very much.

                Kind regards
                graeme

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Graeme,
                > Do you want me to scan the pages from the book and email to you?
                > I don't think Yahoo accept attachments, so send me your personal
                email
                > address if you want them-
                > DonB
                > oink@w...
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"
                <graeme19121984@y...>

                > > > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Otter.jpg
              • graeme19121984
                ... Would you say from the photo that the masts are alloy and sails footed to conventional booms? (Off the shelf or surplas standard marconi rigs?) In the
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 2 9:34 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:>

                  > I agree that their rig is not strictly 'per plans'>

                  Would you say from the photo that the masts are alloy and sails
                  footed to conventional booms? (Off the shelf or surplas standard
                  marconi rigs?) In the sailing photo it looks to me as though they
                  are, but in the beached photo I'm not so sure.

                  > I would like to see a race between an Otter and a AS19.>

                  Sailing or rowing? :)
                  Have they approximately the same cabin space?

                  graeme




                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                  > > Otter #231 19'6" x4'10" Sail $100.00 PB&F Daysailer-
                  cruiser -
                  > > leeboard plywood sharpie - ref: SmallBoats Ch#22;
                  >
                  > Looking more closely at the photo
                  >
                  > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Otter.jpg
                  >
                  > I agree that their rig is not strictly 'per plans'
                  > it appears that they have a simple stick for
                  > the center mast, and that it is stayed with
                  > three wires. Probably because they didn't
                  > want the mast puncturing the cuddy roof
                  > and occupying the center of the cuddy.
                  > I would like to see a race between an Otter and a AS19.>
                • Nels
                  ... BIRDWATCHER II has a gunter rig and PCB says BW is his favorite design. I think the version he uses is pretty foolproof in smaller sized sails, but not
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 3 7:31 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks for your help Bruce.
                    >
                    > >The center mast is double, like a gunter
                    > I think I understand what the as-designed rig is more or less like,
                    > however I'm surprised to see this. I had gained an impression that
                    > PCB did not have a good opinion of the gunter rig.
                    >
                    BIRDWATCHER II has a gunter rig and PCB says BW is his favorite
                    design. I think the version he uses is pretty foolproof in smaller
                    sized sails, but not sure if anyone actually has a BWI with that rig.
                    The original offers the Leg-o'-mutton with sprit boom.

                    Cheers, Nels
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... I am coming to realize that the difference between a gunter and a solent lug is only how the foot of the top yard attaches to the mast. With a track for a
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 3 7:57 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > BIRDWATCHER II has a gunter rig

                      I am coming to realize that the difference
                      between a gunter and a solent lug is only
                      how the foot of the top yard attaches to
                      the mast. With a track for a gunter, and
                      with a loose parrel for a solent lug. One
                      of the two original rigs for Birdwatcher
                      was a solent lug.

                      It is good because you get a taller mast
                      out of two shorter pieces of wood, bad
                      because it is sloppy and hard to get
                      a really nice shape to the sail.

                      http://hallman.org/bolger/Birdwatcher/jbw1.jpg

                      ...shows a picture I grabbed from the web
                      a while back, (I think that is Craig O'Donnell)
                      anybody recognize it?
                    • Nels
                      ... Hi Bruce, I have a copy of the original plan beside me for Birdwatcher enlarged sail plan mod: drawn 11/1/90. Doesn t say what kind of rig it is:-) The
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 3 9:41 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                        > > BIRDWATCHER II has a gunter rig
                        >
                        > ...shows a picture I grabbed from the web
                        > a while back, (I think that is Craig O'Donnell)
                        > anybody recognize it?

                        Hi Bruce,

                        I have a copy of the original plan beside me for "Birdwatcher
                        enlarged sail plan mod:" drawn 11/1/90.

                        Doesn't say what kind of rig it is:-)

                        The boom is the standard one "shortened 3' 6" from top making it 20'.
                        Uses the original sprit boom. The yard is 15' long and attaches to
                        the top of the mast just with a stopper knot through a deadeye about
                        6 feet from the top. There is no other attachment of the yard to the
                        mast. No parrel or anything. The upper part of the sail is attached
                        to the yard through a dead eye at each end and a loop of line about
                        every two feet between. The only other attachment is a grommet at the
                        tack and around the mast.

                        The sail has some roach and three battens, one set of reef points
                        that decreases the area from 185 to 141 sq. feet. And there is a 41
                        sq. ft. jib option. This compares to the leg-o'-mutton area of 125
                        sq. ft. that has brail reefing.

                        So there is nothing to jam on the rig. To reef you ease off on
                        downhaul and the weight of the sail brings the yard down. It lowers
                        about 3 feet so you can tie in the reef. The problem as I see it is
                        the 3 ft. length of rope from the top of the mast to the dead eye in
                        the yard. It would no longer keep the yard against the mast and it
                        would look like the sail in your photo. The yard is free to flop
                        around to some degree.

                        Also once you reef the f'wd end of the sprit is so far forward that
                        it will be protruding beyond the luff of the jib! Also it is not
                        clear how one would tie in the reef as there seems to be no grommet
                        for what would become the new tack?

                        Not sure how this is all solved on the BWII rig.

                        Cheers, Nels
                      • Nels
                        ... 20 . Of course that should be The mast and not the boom! Cheers, Nels
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 3 9:47 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
                          > The boom is the standard one "shortened 3' 6" from top making it
                          20'.

                          Of course that should be The mast and not the boom!

                          Cheers, Nels
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Alternately, you could retie the clew of the sail choking up on the sprit. Woodenboat, I think, published this illustration of the two types of BW1 rigs.
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 3 9:56 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > Also once you reef the f'wd end of the sprit is so far forward that
                            > it will be protruding beyond the luff of the jib!
                            Alternately, you could retie the clew of the sail
                            'choking up' on the sprit.

                            Woodenboat, I think, published this illustration of the
                            two types of BW1 rigs.

                            http://hallman.org/bolger/Birdwatcher/bw_rigs.gif
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.