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Re: FastBrick and Tortoise Update (Virtues of Forefeets)

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  • Nels
    ... Hi Steve, If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to contact the
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 1, 2005
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      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pseudospark" <shansen@t...> wrote:
      > So, can someone quantify
      > the benefit of forefeet on little boxy craft?
      >
      > I've been toying with a design that has a hull not unlike Fastbrick
      > without the forefoot and wonder if something would be gained by
      > adding one.
      >
      > Steve H

      Hi Steve,

      If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a
      Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to
      contact the owner.

      There are some photos in Bolger2 - this might work:

      http://tinyurl.com/4wy97

      Cheers, Nels
    • pseudospark
      Thanks Nels, I ll look at the Watervan you mention. However, what I d really be interested in is a semi-quantitative explanation of what the forefoot does to a
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 2, 2005
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        Thanks Nels, I'll look at the Watervan you mention.

        However, what I'd really be interested in is a semi-quantitative
        explanation of what the forefoot does to a scow/jonboat type hull.

        Thanks,
        Steve H

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
        > If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a
        > Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to
        > contact the owner.
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation: OCR ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 2, 2005
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          > However, what I'd really be interested in is a semi-quantitative
          > explanation of what the forefoot does to a scow/jonboat type hull.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Steve H

          The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation:
          OCR'ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About
          In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and pasted
          below:
          ===========================================
          Watervan
          Design #632
          6.92M x 2.46M (22.7 feet x 8.07 feet)
          This boat was designed primarily for
          Australian rivers and lakes, although capable
          of alongshore or even offshore passages in
          reasonable weather. In fact, she would have a
          better chance in heavy weather than most small
          power cruisers if she was prudently handled,
          doors and windows secured, etc.
          The specification called for a queen-size
          double berth, a dinette convertible to a second
          double berth, a comfortable helm seat and for-
          ward view underway for two or three other
          people, enclosed toilet room, workable galley,
          standing headroom throughout and a cruising
          speed of 20 mph with as little wake and noise
          as possible, all inside the dimensions given
          for convenience in trailer hauling. Her owner
          originally proposed her to be powered with a
          diesel waterjet, but when the cost of the power
          plant became clear, he decided to settle for the
          90 hp, four-stroke outboard motor which is
          also a good deal lighter and less intrusive on
          the cabin.
          The van configuration seemed to be the
          only way this roomy a cabin could be packed
          inside these dimensions. She's what we call a
          cutwater garvey. The slender ski-like cutwater
          under the bow gives buoyancy and dynamic
          lift forward to carry the flat toboggan bow of
          the garvey hull well clear of the water and to
          allow the profile curve of the garvey bow to
          be a very gentle sweep for low drag and mini-
          mal spray making. The cutwater is extended
          to the stern as a box keel, again floating the
          hull proper higher in the water for reduced
          wavemaking and channelling air trapped un-
          der the hull away from the propeller. (This also
          works with a waterjet intake and is more reli-
          able in that respect than the usual slight
          deadrise.) The shape is the same we've used
          for quite a few boats in recent years, except
          that most of the others have the upper part of
          the hull curved in to a blunt point above the
          cutwater. These pointed bows are mostly "to
          make them look like boats," there's no func-
          tional advantage to speak of over the rectan-
          gular bow. In this case, there was no question
          of getting the specified layout in any boatlike
          style, and this shape is very straightforward
          to assemble as well as being roomy and buoy-
          ant.
          The forward helm and viewing seats
          would be unworkable in a normal garvey with-
          out the cutwater. The bow would have to be
          too abrupt a curve to float the weight of people
          in the bow. It would plow at low speed and
          drive hard at planing speed if it could get up
          at all. With the cutwater to lift the bow it be-
          comes workable, although she is still fastest
          if everybody doesn't insist on sitting in the
          bow.
          A hull like this is very dry. The
          sharp-lined cutwater doesn't make much spray,
          and what it does make is trapped under the
          fiat hull. There are shallow skids along the
          outside edges of the bottom to retain some of
          the air that would otherwise be forced out at
          the sides. The boat rides on a cushion of foam
          trapped on each side of the box keel. There is
          actually some cushioning effect; in spite of the
          large flat areas, these hulls are less noisy and
          rough riding than most in choppy water, in-
          cluding many deep-vee hulls with big, flat
          strakes and spray deflectors. This is not to
          claim that they are quiet or smooth! That is
          not doable on these proportions at these speeds
          on an uneven surface like water, except by
          means of foils, which have their own draw-
          backs.
          One item on the wish list was the ability
          to keep running at night, at cruising speed.
          without too much risk. Hence the twin, pow-
          erful off-road headlights, which brilliantly
          illuminate the water for hundreds of feet ahead
          without any reflection on any part of the boat.
          The square-across bow also incorporates ven-
          tilation intakes with efficient baffling to allow
          them to be open in a downpour of rain. The
          vent outlets are in the deck (or roof) at the
          stern, also well baffled and located where ed-
          dying fumes from the motor can't reach them.
          The motor, and all the fuel, are in watertight
          compartments in the stern, where no spills can
          reach the cabin. The large doors opening from
          the cabin to the motor recess are specified to
          be gasketed and dogged airtight whenever the
          motor is running.
          She can be opened up in all directions in
          good weather, from the big bow gate from
          which anchor handling is done, the sliding
          windows at the sides and the sliding sunroof
          overhead, to the entrance doors on each side.
          These last open inwards to clear floats,
          lock-walls etc. A series of folding platforms
          allows outside access to the stern and conve-
          nient boarding from small boats. The propane
          cylinder for the stove is in an airtight recess in
          the galley, opening only to the outside.
          We've found that there is not much point
          in arguing about the aesthetics of something
          like this. You like it, you hate it, or you can or
          can't quite tolerate it. But we will argue with
          conviction and from experience and expertise
          that there is nothing unseamanlike about it. It
          can't be compared with anything of equiva-
          lent space efficiency because there is nothing
          afloat that can match her. But she will run
          faster, with less disturbance behind her, with
          better control and no more discomfort in rough
          water, than most small, fast power cruisers.
          She is not a clumsy floating house. Any ob-
          jections to it have no objective basis. The ef-
          feet on the scenery of a fleet of them is legiti-
          mately arguable.
        • Nels
          ... The shape is the same we ve used for quite a few boats in recent years, except that most of the others have the upper part of the hull curved in to a blunt
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 2, 2005
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
            The shape is the same we've used
            for quite a few boats in recent years, except
            that most of the others have the upper part of
            the hull curved in to a blunt point above the
            cutwater. These pointed bows are mostly "to
            make them look like boats," there's no func-
            tional advantage to speak of over the rectan-
            gular bow.

            I believe both Col. Hasler and FIJI are examples of what he speaks of
            as "curved in to a blunt point" and in the Hasler write-up in MAIB he
            gives more details on this type of bow configuration, derived partly
            from Japanese "Yamoto" boats or something like that?

            They are a lot more sophisticated than they look and definetly
            carrying the "skid" the length of the hull is something to consider
            as in Clam Skiff. If this skid is solid wood it would offer extra
            protection when grounding as well as adding lift at speed.

            Cheers, Nels
          • Bruce Hallman
            ... Hasler [& Yonder & Motor Sailer & Working Tug, etc.] have box keels and are displacement hulls. Fiji (& Topaz) have cutwaters at the bow only and are
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 2, 2005
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              > I believe both Col. Hasler and FIJI are examples
              > Cheers, Nels

              Hasler [& Yonder & Motor Sailer & Working Tug, etc.]
              have box keels and are displacement hulls.

              Fiji (& Topaz) have cutwaters at the bow only and
              are planing hulls.

              Fastbrick, Watervan, Microtrawler, Bee, Hawkeye, etc.
              have cutwaters and full length 'shoes' and are planing hulls.
              They look superficially the same, but are really
              different. Clam Skiff might even be included in this
              catagory.

              Champlain, Sitka Explorer, Windermere, Motor
              Sailing Cargo Boat, fall in between, but are displacement
              boats.
            • pseudospark
              Hi Bruce, Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this in? (I m sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only problem is that
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 2, 2005
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                Hi Bruce,

                Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
                in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
                problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
                cabinet.)

                In looking at Fastbrick, it has the forefoot but not the box keel
                per Watervan, Clam Skiff and the tugs.

                The design I've been playing with is a loose adaptation of Jim
                Betts' Gypsy's Poke (which he never took beyond the cartoon stage).
                A forefoot and perhaps a shallow box keel might go well with this
                creature.

                Steve H.

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                > The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation:
                > OCR'ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About
                > In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and pasted
                > below:
                >
              • Nels
                ... The article can be seen here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Watervan/ Another difference with some of the designs Bruce mentions is that the
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 2, 2005
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pseudospark" <shansen@t...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Bruce,
                  >
                  > Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
                  > in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
                  > problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
                  > cabinet.)
                  >
                  The article can be seen here:

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Watervan/

                  Another difference with some of the designs Bruce mentions is that
                  the "Garvey" shape has some deadrise near the bow in some of them.
                  And the run of the aft sections will be the deciding factor for the
                  design's ability to plane easily or sail without dragging the stern.

                  I believe that Bolger likes the idea that these hull-shapes are very
                  practical for plywood construction, as there are no compound curves
                  and yet they perform very well.

                  Fastbrick will plane:-)

                  Cheers, Nels
                • Stefan Gutermuth
                  Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only Water Van in the Northern Hemisphere. The boat is a joy to operate above 10 Knots. Below 10 knots,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 2, 2005
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                    Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only Water Van in the
                    Northern Hemisphere.

                    The boat is a joy to operate above 10 Knots. Below 10 knots, because of the
                    nose heavy design, it tends to wander, and a 2.5 to 3' wave, square on, will
                    ship some water over the bow. Above 10, through 16 knots the wandering goes
                    away, the bow comes up nicely, and she runs very dry, even in 3' to 4' chop
                    and swells. At 18 knots she starts to plane and by 20 knots the Water Van
                    levels out and feels like she's riding on a cushion In fairly calm water,
                    with the Suzuki DF 115, she will easily cruise at 25 knots.

                    The forefoot / box keel is almost 3' wide for most of its length, and runs
                    6" below the main hull. There are 2 mini keels at the outboard edges of the
                    main hull, about 2" wide and 3" down. It appears that turbulated water and
                    air is trapped between the box keel and the mini outboard keels; effectively
                    creating a slippery foam cushion at the 10 to 18 knot range.

                    Stefan Gutermuth, V.P.
                    John O'Hara Company
                    Ph: 973-673-4676
                    Fx: 973-673-7141
                    Cl: 201-970-8007
                    stefan@...


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: pseudospark [mailto:shansen@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 6:57 PM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: FastBrick and Tortoise Update (Virtues of Forefeets)




                    Hi Bruce,

                    Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
                    in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
                    problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
                    cabinet.)

                    In looking at Fastbrick, it has the forefoot but not the box keel
                    per Watervan, Clam Skiff and the tugs.

                    The design I've been playing with is a loose adaptation of Jim
                    Betts' Gypsy's Poke (which he never took beyond the cartoon stage).
                    A forefoot and perhaps a shallow box keel might go well with this
                    creature.

                    Steve H.

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                    > The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation: OCR'ed from
                    > the excellent magazine _Messing About In Boats_, [everybody should
                    > subscribe!] and pasted
                    > below:
                    >






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                  • pseudospark
                    Hi Stefan, Thanks much for the first hand information. Sounds like a great boat. Steve H
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 3, 2005
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                      Hi Stefan,

                      Thanks much for the first hand information. Sounds like a great boat.

                      Steve H

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Gutermuth" <stefan-g@m...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only
                      > Water Van in the Northern Hemisphere.
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