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FastBrick and Tortoise Update

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  • adventures_in_astrophotography
    Some photos of my 12 FastBrick project have been posted. I have lots of other photos prior to these, but I still need to get them off of my wife s computer
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 24, 2005
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      Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted. I have
      lots of other photos prior to these, but I still need to get them off
      of my wife's computer (no CD burner on that machine), so it's going
      to be a few more days for the earlier photos to get posted. After
      all the talk about plywood encapsulation and quality, I'm now a
      little worried about using ACX for this boat, some with a luan face.
      But, it's about all I can get out here in CO without mail ordering
      (if someone knows otherwise, please let me know), and it's too late
      now anyway. The interior of the hull will get encapsulated with
      epoxy as part of installing the styrofoam core that most of the boat
      gets
      for flotation. I think it will be a good idea to carefully fit the
      foam to minimize interior air volumes where condensation could
      develop. Here's the link to FastBrick:

      http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/fastbrick.htm

      And the 8' Tortoise that nests inside FastBrick is completed save for
      the oarlocks. The end decks and straddle seat are not to plan and
      are my own doing. I'm hoping the aft seat stretcher will be in just
      about the right place for a foot brace when rowing. The paint scheme
      may be a bit too subtle, but I haven't hauled it into sunlight yet to
      see how it looks outdoors. A similar paint scheme will be used on
      FastBrick if it looks OK outside. Here's the link to Tortoise:

      http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/tortoise.htm

      Neither of these links can be navigated to from my main website (if
      you like astrophotography, it's here:
      http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/ ).

      Jon Kolb
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... Wow, look great. Fastbrick sure is a much bigger boat than I had imagined in my mind.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 24, 2005
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        > Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted.
        > http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/fastbrick.htm
        > Jon Kolb

        Wow, look great. Fastbrick sure is a much bigger
        boat than I had imagined in my mind.
      • Nels
        ... off ... face. ... Hi Jon, That plywood looks fine and both boats look great! Gotta give FB a bit meaner paint job though:-) How many layers of ply on the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 24, 2005
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
          <jkolb@d...> wrote:
          >
          > Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted. I have
          > lots of other photos prior to these, but I still need to get them
          off
          > of my wife's computer (no CD burner on that machine), so it's going
          > to be a few more days for the earlier photos to get posted. After
          > all the talk about plywood encapsulation and quality, I'm now a
          > little worried about using ACX for this boat, some with a luan
          face.
          >
          Hi Jon,

          That plywood looks fine and both boats look great! Gotta give FB a
          bit meaner paint job though:-) How many layers of ply on the FB
          bottom? Is it pretty heavy or about what you expected? Are you
          planning on building the sail rig? Looks like it could take a fair
          sized motor.

          I really find it interesting and intriguing. Of course also imagining
          a Watervan type top too:-) Like a mini watervan. There is plenty of
          room for some fishing gear, a bed, potti a cooler, and a frying pan.
          All that a person every needs. Maybe a Birdwatcher type opening down
          the centre and you could fish in your jammies:-)

          Cheers, Nels
        • adventures_in_astrophotography
          Hi Nels, ... If you can point me to some good looking mean paint jobs, I m open to other ideas! The bottom is two layers of 1/4 ACX. It s not particularly
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 25, 2005
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            Hi Nels,

            > That plywood looks fine and both boats look great! Gotta give FB a
            > bit meaner paint job though:-) How many layers of ply on the FB
            > bottom? Is it pretty heavy or about what you expected? Are you
            > planning on building the sail rig? Looks like it could take a fair
            > sized motor.

            If you can point me to some good looking mean paint jobs, I'm open to
            other ideas! The bottom is two layers of 1/4" ACX. It's not
            particularly heavy right now, but once all the interior bulkheads,
            compartments, styrofoam, and interior sheathing are done it will
            probably get pretty heavy. I'm hoping to be able to launch it for
            trials off of a 16' utility trailer and recover it without a winch,
            but I'll bring a come-along just in case. She's probably going to
            get a 9.9 if I can afford it, or a 5 if I can't.

            As for the sailing rig, yes, I intend to build it, but I'm not sure
            when I'll get around to sewing the sail. I know that if I don't
            build the rig, leeboard, and rudder now, I'll get too busy with
            something else (hopefully our 50-footer) and won't be motivated to
            build that stuff later. Better to get it done now while it's the
            main project.

            > I really find it interesting and intriguing. Of course also
            imagining
            > a Watervan type top too:-) Like a mini watervan. There is plenty of
            > room for some fishing gear, a bed, potti a cooler, and a frying
            pan.
            > All that a person every needs. Maybe a Birdwatcher type opening
            down
            > the centre and you could fish in your jammies:-)

            I don't intend to use it as a pleasure boat after trials - it's
            supposed to be the tender for our cruiser after all, and we've got
            the light cat schooner for excitement. As a workboat, however, I was
            actually thinking it would make a good firewood hauler. You can
            easily put half a cord of wood in this boat without (at least in the
            stretched 12' version I'm building) loading it over the rails. Of
            course, it would also make a great fishing boat, and with her square
            sections you can get right to the sides of the boat to land fish. A
            top would make a lot of sense for that usage.

            Jon
          • Nels
            ... to ... Weel I figure to start you need some shark teeth on that cutwater and an eye in each bow:-) When I look at that basic bare, open hull shape I see
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 25, 2005
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
              <jkolb@d...> wrote:
              >
              > If you can point me to some good looking mean paint jobs, I'm open
              to
              > other ideas!

              Weel I figure to start you need some shark teeth on that cutwater and
              an "eye" in each bow:-)

              When I look at that basic bare, open hull shape I see a lot of
              possibilities for to adapt it for different uses. Certainly as
              a "work" or fishing boat. Also as a platform to try different sail
              shapes and plans - like a lateen rig on a stub mast, with a two-part
              yard and a poly tarp sail. Or maybe run a "box-keel" down the bottom
              like the clam skiff and put a bigger motor on it. Maybe some UMHV
              strips for ease of launching aka "The Hallman Technique";-)

              How much are the plans anyway?

              Thanks, Nels
            • adventures_in_astrophotography
              Hi Nels, ... and ... Sort of a hammerhead look, eh? I was thinking of something more Bahamian, perhaps. On the other hand, those big, flat sides would make
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 27, 2005
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                Hi Nels,

                > Weel I figure to start you need some shark teeth on that cutwater
                and
                > an "eye" in each bow:-)

                Sort of a hammerhead look, eh? I was thinking of something more
                Bahamian, perhaps. On the other hand, those big, flat sides would
                make nice canvas for some sort of mural approach.

                > When I look at that basic bare, open hull shape I see a lot of
                > possibilities for to adapt it for different uses. Certainly as
                > a "work" or fishing boat. Also as a platform to try different sail
                > shapes and plans - like a lateen rig on a stub mast, with a two-
                part
                > yard and a poly tarp sail. Or maybe run a "box-keel" down the
                bottom
                > like the clam skiff and put a bigger motor on it. Maybe some UMHV
                > strips for ease of launching aka "The Hallman Technique";-)

                Since I'm building it at 12', I thought about moving the mast step to
                the centerline and giving the boat a dipping lug for it's emergency
                sailing rig, figuring that saving a spar was worth it. However, it
                seems to me that the balanced lug shown would be a lot better for
                running downwind, so I decided against that plan. The centerline
                mast step would also interfere with the deck plate that accesses the
                forefoot volume.

                > How much are the plans anyway?

                I don't know. PCB sent us the plans for free, since we're already
                hooked for thousands on our cruiser design. If you have the MAIB
                article on this boat, it should say what they cost.

                Jon
              • pseudospark
                ... Jon, Your post and photos prompted me to dig out my Sept 1, 2003 MAIB with PCB s Fastbrick article. I ve a question for anyone who can answer. Normally
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 1 4:18 PM
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                  <jkolb@d...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted.

                  Jon,

                  Your post and photos prompted me to dig out my Sept 1, 2003 MAIB
                  with PCB's Fastbrick article. I've a question for anyone who can
                  answer. Normally flatbottomed square hulls are not considered to be
                  useful or safe in anything more severe than a light chop. (I don't
                  say this from experience, just from what I've read...all my boats
                  have flat bottoms but they are of the pointy front variety.) For
                  example, Jim Michalak cautions against rough water on his scow
                  hulled craft. The only real difference I see between, say Harmonica
                  or Campjon, and Fastbrick is the forefoot. So, can someone quantify
                  the benefit of forefeet on little boxy craft?

                  I've been toying with a design that has a hull not unlike Fastbrick
                  without the forefoot and wonder if something would be gained by
                  adding one.

                  Steve H
                • Nels
                  ... Hi Steve, If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to contact the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 1 5:36 PM
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pseudospark" <shansen@t...> wrote:
                    > So, can someone quantify
                    > the benefit of forefeet on little boxy craft?
                    >
                    > I've been toying with a design that has a hull not unlike Fastbrick
                    > without the forefoot and wonder if something would be gained by
                    > adding one.
                    >
                    > Steve H

                    Hi Steve,

                    If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a
                    Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to
                    contact the owner.

                    There are some photos in Bolger2 - this might work:

                    http://tinyurl.com/4wy97

                    Cheers, Nels
                  • pseudospark
                    Thanks Nels, I ll look at the Watervan you mention. However, what I d really be interested in is a semi-quantitative explanation of what the forefoot does to a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 2 9:49 AM
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                      Thanks Nels, I'll look at the Watervan you mention.

                      However, what I'd really be interested in is a semi-quantitative
                      explanation of what the forefoot does to a scow/jonboat type hull.

                      Thanks,
                      Steve H

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
                      > If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a
                      > Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to
                      > contact the owner.
                    • Bruce Hallman
                      ... The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation: OCR ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 2 10:14 AM
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                        > However, what I'd really be interested in is a semi-quantitative
                        > explanation of what the forefoot does to a scow/jonboat type hull.
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        > Steve H

                        The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation:
                        OCR'ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About
                        In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and pasted
                        below:
                        ===========================================
                        Watervan
                        Design #632
                        6.92M x 2.46M (22.7 feet x 8.07 feet)
                        This boat was designed primarily for
                        Australian rivers and lakes, although capable
                        of alongshore or even offshore passages in
                        reasonable weather. In fact, she would have a
                        better chance in heavy weather than most small
                        power cruisers if she was prudently handled,
                        doors and windows secured, etc.
                        The specification called for a queen-size
                        double berth, a dinette convertible to a second
                        double berth, a comfortable helm seat and for-
                        ward view underway for two or three other
                        people, enclosed toilet room, workable galley,
                        standing headroom throughout and a cruising
                        speed of 20 mph with as little wake and noise
                        as possible, all inside the dimensions given
                        for convenience in trailer hauling. Her owner
                        originally proposed her to be powered with a
                        diesel waterjet, but when the cost of the power
                        plant became clear, he decided to settle for the
                        90 hp, four-stroke outboard motor which is
                        also a good deal lighter and less intrusive on
                        the cabin.
                        The van configuration seemed to be the
                        only way this roomy a cabin could be packed
                        inside these dimensions. She's what we call a
                        cutwater garvey. The slender ski-like cutwater
                        under the bow gives buoyancy and dynamic
                        lift forward to carry the flat toboggan bow of
                        the garvey hull well clear of the water and to
                        allow the profile curve of the garvey bow to
                        be a very gentle sweep for low drag and mini-
                        mal spray making. The cutwater is extended
                        to the stern as a box keel, again floating the
                        hull proper higher in the water for reduced
                        wavemaking and channelling air trapped un-
                        der the hull away from the propeller. (This also
                        works with a waterjet intake and is more reli-
                        able in that respect than the usual slight
                        deadrise.) The shape is the same we've used
                        for quite a few boats in recent years, except
                        that most of the others have the upper part of
                        the hull curved in to a blunt point above the
                        cutwater. These pointed bows are mostly "to
                        make them look like boats," there's no func-
                        tional advantage to speak of over the rectan-
                        gular bow. In this case, there was no question
                        of getting the specified layout in any boatlike
                        style, and this shape is very straightforward
                        to assemble as well as being roomy and buoy-
                        ant.
                        The forward helm and viewing seats
                        would be unworkable in a normal garvey with-
                        out the cutwater. The bow would have to be
                        too abrupt a curve to float the weight of people
                        in the bow. It would plow at low speed and
                        drive hard at planing speed if it could get up
                        at all. With the cutwater to lift the bow it be-
                        comes workable, although she is still fastest
                        if everybody doesn't insist on sitting in the
                        bow.
                        A hull like this is very dry. The
                        sharp-lined cutwater doesn't make much spray,
                        and what it does make is trapped under the
                        fiat hull. There are shallow skids along the
                        outside edges of the bottom to retain some of
                        the air that would otherwise be forced out at
                        the sides. The boat rides on a cushion of foam
                        trapped on each side of the box keel. There is
                        actually some cushioning effect; in spite of the
                        large flat areas, these hulls are less noisy and
                        rough riding than most in choppy water, in-
                        cluding many deep-vee hulls with big, flat
                        strakes and spray deflectors. This is not to
                        claim that they are quiet or smooth! That is
                        not doable on these proportions at these speeds
                        on an uneven surface like water, except by
                        means of foils, which have their own draw-
                        backs.
                        One item on the wish list was the ability
                        to keep running at night, at cruising speed.
                        without too much risk. Hence the twin, pow-
                        erful off-road headlights, which brilliantly
                        illuminate the water for hundreds of feet ahead
                        without any reflection on any part of the boat.
                        The square-across bow also incorporates ven-
                        tilation intakes with efficient baffling to allow
                        them to be open in a downpour of rain. The
                        vent outlets are in the deck (or roof) at the
                        stern, also well baffled and located where ed-
                        dying fumes from the motor can't reach them.
                        The motor, and all the fuel, are in watertight
                        compartments in the stern, where no spills can
                        reach the cabin. The large doors opening from
                        the cabin to the motor recess are specified to
                        be gasketed and dogged airtight whenever the
                        motor is running.
                        She can be opened up in all directions in
                        good weather, from the big bow gate from
                        which anchor handling is done, the sliding
                        windows at the sides and the sliding sunroof
                        overhead, to the entrance doors on each side.
                        These last open inwards to clear floats,
                        lock-walls etc. A series of folding platforms
                        allows outside access to the stern and conve-
                        nient boarding from small boats. The propane
                        cylinder for the stove is in an airtight recess in
                        the galley, opening only to the outside.
                        We've found that there is not much point
                        in arguing about the aesthetics of something
                        like this. You like it, you hate it, or you can or
                        can't quite tolerate it. But we will argue with
                        conviction and from experience and expertise
                        that there is nothing unseamanlike about it. It
                        can't be compared with anything of equiva-
                        lent space efficiency because there is nothing
                        afloat that can match her. But she will run
                        faster, with less disturbance behind her, with
                        better control and no more discomfort in rough
                        water, than most small, fast power cruisers.
                        She is not a clumsy floating house. Any ob-
                        jections to it have no objective basis. The ef-
                        feet on the scenery of a fleet of them is legiti-
                        mately arguable.
                      • Nels
                        ... The shape is the same we ve used for quite a few boats in recent years, except that most of the others have the upper part of the hull curved in to a blunt
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 2 10:32 AM
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                          The shape is the same we've used
                          for quite a few boats in recent years, except
                          that most of the others have the upper part of
                          the hull curved in to a blunt point above the
                          cutwater. These pointed bows are mostly "to
                          make them look like boats," there's no func-
                          tional advantage to speak of over the rectan-
                          gular bow.

                          I believe both Col. Hasler and FIJI are examples of what he speaks of
                          as "curved in to a blunt point" and in the Hasler write-up in MAIB he
                          gives more details on this type of bow configuration, derived partly
                          from Japanese "Yamoto" boats or something like that?

                          They are a lot more sophisticated than they look and definetly
                          carrying the "skid" the length of the hull is something to consider
                          as in Clam Skiff. If this skid is solid wood it would offer extra
                          protection when grounding as well as adding lift at speed.

                          Cheers, Nels
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Hasler [& Yonder & Motor Sailer & Working Tug, etc.] have box keels and are displacement hulls. Fiji (& Topaz) have cutwaters at the bow only and are
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 2 11:02 AM
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                            > I believe both Col. Hasler and FIJI are examples
                            > Cheers, Nels

                            Hasler [& Yonder & Motor Sailer & Working Tug, etc.]
                            have box keels and are displacement hulls.

                            Fiji (& Topaz) have cutwaters at the bow only and
                            are planing hulls.

                            Fastbrick, Watervan, Microtrawler, Bee, Hawkeye, etc.
                            have cutwaters and full length 'shoes' and are planing hulls.
                            They look superficially the same, but are really
                            different. Clam Skiff might even be included in this
                            catagory.

                            Champlain, Sitka Explorer, Windermere, Motor
                            Sailing Cargo Boat, fall in between, but are displacement
                            boats.
                          • pseudospark
                            Hi Bruce, Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this in? (I m sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only problem is that
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 2 3:56 PM
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                              Hi Bruce,

                              Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
                              in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
                              problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
                              cabinet.)

                              In looking at Fastbrick, it has the forefoot but not the box keel
                              per Watervan, Clam Skiff and the tugs.

                              The design I've been playing with is a loose adaptation of Jim
                              Betts' Gypsy's Poke (which he never took beyond the cartoon stage).
                              A forefoot and perhaps a shallow box keel might go well with this
                              creature.

                              Steve H.

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                              > The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation:
                              > OCR'ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About
                              > In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and pasted
                              > below:
                              >
                            • Nels
                              ... The article can be seen here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Watervan/ Another difference with some of the designs Bruce mentions is that the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 2 6:01 PM
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pseudospark" <shansen@t...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Bruce,
                                >
                                > Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
                                > in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
                                > problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
                                > cabinet.)
                                >
                                The article can be seen here:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Watervan/

                                Another difference with some of the designs Bruce mentions is that
                                the "Garvey" shape has some deadrise near the bow in some of them.
                                And the run of the aft sections will be the deciding factor for the
                                design's ability to plane easily or sail without dragging the stern.

                                I believe that Bolger likes the idea that these hull-shapes are very
                                practical for plywood construction, as there are no compound curves
                                and yet they perform very well.

                                Fastbrick will plane:-)

                                Cheers, Nels
                              • Stefan Gutermuth
                                Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only Water Van in the Northern Hemisphere. The boat is a joy to operate above 10 Knots. Below 10 knots,
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 2 7:32 PM
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                                  Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only Water Van in the
                                  Northern Hemisphere.

                                  The boat is a joy to operate above 10 Knots. Below 10 knots, because of the
                                  nose heavy design, it tends to wander, and a 2.5 to 3' wave, square on, will
                                  ship some water over the bow. Above 10, through 16 knots the wandering goes
                                  away, the bow comes up nicely, and she runs very dry, even in 3' to 4' chop
                                  and swells. At 18 knots she starts to plane and by 20 knots the Water Van
                                  levels out and feels like she's riding on a cushion In fairly calm water,
                                  with the Suzuki DF 115, she will easily cruise at 25 knots.

                                  The forefoot / box keel is almost 3' wide for most of its length, and runs
                                  6" below the main hull. There are 2 mini keels at the outboard edges of the
                                  main hull, about 2" wide and 3" down. It appears that turbulated water and
                                  air is trapped between the box keel and the mini outboard keels; effectively
                                  creating a slippery foam cushion at the 10 to 18 knot range.

                                  Stefan Gutermuth, V.P.
                                  John O'Hara Company
                                  Ph: 973-673-4676
                                  Fx: 973-673-7141
                                  Cl: 201-970-8007
                                  stefan@...


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: pseudospark [mailto:shansen@...]
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 6:57 PM
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: FastBrick and Tortoise Update (Virtues of Forefeets)




                                  Hi Bruce,

                                  Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
                                  in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
                                  problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
                                  cabinet.)

                                  In looking at Fastbrick, it has the forefoot but not the box keel
                                  per Watervan, Clam Skiff and the tugs.

                                  The design I've been playing with is a loose adaptation of Jim
                                  Betts' Gypsy's Poke (which he never took beyond the cartoon stage).
                                  A forefoot and perhaps a shallow box keel might go well with this
                                  creature.

                                  Steve H.

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                                  > The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation: OCR'ed from
                                  > the excellent magazine _Messing About In Boats_, [everybody should
                                  > subscribe!] and pasted
                                  > below:
                                  >






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                                • pseudospark
                                  Hi Stefan, Thanks much for the first hand information. Sounds like a great boat. Steve H
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 3 2:49 PM
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                                    Hi Stefan,

                                    Thanks much for the first hand information. Sounds like a great boat.

                                    Steve H

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Gutermuth" <stefan-g@m...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only
                                    > Water Van in the Northern Hemisphere.
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.