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Re: [bolger] Re: Birdwatcher II, others being built? Foam details...

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... What glue did you use?
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 2, 2005
      > 1)The foam MUST be thoroughly glued to the plywood panels
      > Peter Lenihan

      What glue did you use?
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... Hi Bruce, Haven t begun the insulation just yet but Bolger does specify setting the Styrofoam onto a well thickened,evenly spread,layer of epoxy. A couple
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 3, 2005
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
        > > 1)The foam MUST be thoroughly glued to the plywood panels
        > > Peter Lenihan
        >
        > What glue did you use?

        Hi Bruce,

        Haven't begun the insulation just yet but Bolger does specify
        setting the Styrofoam onto a well thickened,evenly spread,layer of
        epoxy.
        A couple of folks around these parts,think this route too
        expensive and are suggesting I go with a proven construction grade
        adhessive specically designed for attaching foam to
        wood,steel,concrete etc...
        I'll be writing Bolger before the month is out and will seek
        clarification/opinion on the justification for epoxy along with
        viable,less costly alternative.Stay tuned... :-)

        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan
      • Nels
        ... Here is a link to two types of one brand of 1 rigid foam. One is hydrophobic (like me:-) and the second waterproof. They also have a sealing tape
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 3, 2005
          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
          wrote:
          > I'll be writing Bolger before the month is out and will seek
          > clarification/opinion on the justification for epoxy along with
          > viable,less costly alternative.Stay tuned... :-)
          >
          > Sincerely,
          >
          > Peter Lenihan

          Here is a link to two types of one brand of 1" rigid foam. One
          is "hydrophobic" (like me:-) and the second waterproof. They also
          have a sealing tape available to seal joints, but don't mention an
          adhesive.

          http://tinyurl.com/yvb7r

          There are also many sources for fire-proof paints and coatings as
          well as waterproof coatings. One example.

          http://www.hytechsales.com/fire_proofing.html

          From what I understand, in building BWII, the rigid foam is glued
          down between 1x1 longitudinals before the topsides and bottom are
          installed around the bulkheads and the outside finished off with
          exterior chines, shear strakes, taped seams and painted. (All
          exterior surfaces are epoxy coated and glassed flat on the floor,
          prior to assembly.) Then the boat is turned upright and the interior
          plywood panels are installed.

          I would expect that there has to be vertical wood supports on the
          topsides and transverse frame supports on the bottom, for the
          attachement of the bulkheads right? Because you can't attach the
          bulkheads directly to the foam. So in essence the sides and bottom
          are web frames and very rigid by themselves especially once the foam
          is cemented in.

          Therefor the interior panels could simply be installed as removable
          panels and could in fact have air circulation vents installed that
          would allow any moisture to evaporate. One could also install
          horizontal natural wood strips, as in Lestat, allowing air to
          cirulate freely behind. Any actual water would run down into the
          bilge troughs that are a part of the design and could be wiped up
          with a rag.

          This is the route that I might choose as this hull would be much
          stronger than the instant line of boats, even without the interior
          layer of plywood. After all, BW is simply a variation of the Scooner
          and HH Schooner hulls which only have one layer of 1/4" plywood!

          Cheers, Nels
        • Rick Bedard
          Yep, been my experience that no air voids can be allowed between ply and foam, or rot will find it s way. That is, unless you intentionally keep them separate
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 3, 2005
            Yep, been my experience that no air voids can be allowed between ply and foam, or rot will find it's way. That is, unless you intentionally keep them separate and allow for air circulation and drainage between the foam and ply. Either way, epoxy coat the ply first! I've seen white foam that tends to get pulled apart if bonded on both sides and the panel stressed. I've been told, but haven't seen it proven that the pink or blue is much better at staying intact... I'll be using pink foam held away from the plywood hull sides by fiberglass vertical spacer battens. I'll get zero added structural strength, however I'm only looking for insulation and floatation.

            Rick

            Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
            > > 1)The foam MUST be thoroughly glued to the plywood panels
            > > Peter Lenihan
            >
            > What glue did you use?

            Hi Bruce,

            Haven't begun the insulation just yet but Bolger does specify
            setting the Styrofoam onto a well thickened,evenly spread,layer of
            epoxy.
            A couple of folks around these parts,think this route too
            expensive and are suggesting I go with a proven construction grade
            adhessive specically designed for attaching foam to
            wood,steel,concrete etc...
            I'll be writing Bolger before the month is out and will seek
            clarification/opinion on the justification for epoxy along with
            viable,less costly alternative.Stay tuned... :-)

            Sincerely,

            Peter Lenihan





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          • oarmandt
            ... ply and foam, or rot will find it s way. That is, unless you intentionally keep them separate and allow for air circulation and drainage between the foam
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 6, 2005
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick Bedard <sctree@y...> wrote:
              > Yep, been my experience that no air voids can be allowed between
              ply and foam, or rot will find it's way. That is, unless you
              intentionally keep them separate and allow for air circulation and
              drainage between the foam and ply. Either way, epoxy coat the ply
              first!


              I wonder if Dave Carnell's preservative technique (borax and boric
              acid in ethylene glycol - see MAIB 8/15/2004 p26) wouldn't work well
              in the foam/ply sandwich construction. I am thinking of treating
              the interior surfaces of all the wood, letting the treatment dry,
              then gluing all together. Epoxy seal the outside. It seems that
              there is little chance of the treatment being washed away if the
              outside surfaces are reasonably sealed. Any water drawn in as vapor
              is likely to leave the same way, leaving the glycol and/or borates
              behind.

              I have a Birdwatcher under construction. Mine will be mostly BW 1,
              with a few details borrowed from BW 2 where they suit me. I was
              planning on the foam sandwich hull side panels until I saw the
              reports of rot here. With the preservative treatment, I think it
              stands a good chance.

              Doug
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