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Re: Intellectual Property is a Misnomer - comes from WIPO

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  • woofers94401
    ... terms. You need ... else. He is ... That s correct Bruce. What Bolger and any other boat/aircraft designer sells is the right to build one boat from a
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
      > > John van V. <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Richard Stallman, of GNU, will fight to the death over these
      terms. You need
      > > to be specific, he says, either copyright or patent or something
      else. He is
      > > actually correct, I think.
      >
      > Copyright, I guess. What Bolger sells, as I understand it,
      > is not the paper, but rather the right to build one boat from
      > the boat design.
      >

      That's correct Bruce. What Bolger and any other boat/aircraft
      designer sells is the right to build one boat from a set of plans.
      It's not the plans you buy, it's a license.

      What does any of this have to do with boatbuilding or boating,
      anyway?. My only right that's being infringed is my right of
      unwasted bandwidth..
    • fountainb@switch.aust.com
      ... Richard ... software ... the ... I am familiar with the copyleft and similar licenses, and I met RMS about 8 years ago at a talk in Sydney. Interesting
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 2, 2004
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        John van V. wrote:
        > I want to leave you with the concept known as copylefting, invented by
        Richard
        > Stallman of the GNU organization. It basically says that copylefted
        software
        > is free to use, but if you use it and improve on it, you must publish
        the
        > improvements (on the web) for free use

        I am familiar with the copyleft and similar licenses, and I met
        RMS about 8 years ago at a talk in Sydney. Interesting stuff.
        However I completely fail to see how this subject has any bearing
        on the Bolger forum.

        Bruce Fountain
        Systems Engineer
        Union Switch & Signal
        Perth, Western Australia


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stefan Probst
        ... OK, what is RH s business model? Besides selling packaged CDs , they - like many other package sellers - need money from companies that pay them for
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 3, 2004
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          > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:24:37 -0800 (PST)
          > From: "John van V." <john_van_v@...>
          > Subject: Re: Intellectual Property is a Misnomer - comes from WIPO
          >
          > > How, in GNU, can they make money selling what they make?
          >
          >Redhat is an example, very, very profitable.

          OK, what is RH's business model?
          Besides selling "packaged CDs", they - like many other package sellers -
          need money from companies that pay them for supporting their SW. Few
          individuals will pay, since they can get the CDs/SW cheap (e.g. download
          them), and they can get the support via online forums.

          How does this work with Boat Design?
          Once the designs are built a few times, and the plans corrected for every
          mistake, a builder should not need much support from the designer, no? If
          so, he could get it from groups like this one, no? A commercial boat
          builder might be willing to spend the money for "paid support", but few
          individuals who build a design only one time, would be willing to spend
          much money, no?

          Free (or Open Source) style Boat Design works obviously only
          - for designers who have other sources of income
          (i.e. hobby designers and boat manufacturers)
          - for designers, if they can make enough money from the original design,
          i.e. from the fees that the first-time builder pays them
          - for designers who get otherwise funding, e.g. research institutes

          There is one more difference with SW, and that is the size of the market
          leading to different designer-user relations:
          With SW, it does not matter much where I live. 100 USD might be peanuts for
          a good SW package in the US, but it is quite some money where I live. With
          SW, I am left out. I might resolve to use the SW without having a proper
          license.
          With a boat design, I imagine that PCB (or any other designer for that
          matter) might consider the situation, and give the license to build a boat
          for a considerable lower fee, more suitable to the market.

          One odd thing though: I understand that PCB does not consider his
          "cartoons" as copyright protected. So, if somebody manages to build a boat
          according to a cartoon, without buying the full plans, this looks like
          being ok, no?

          If I have a look at somebody else's plans (to learn some details), but then
          build only following the cartoon, so ... ?
          To me it looks like there is considerable grey area...

          Cheers from a FLOSS activist, turned boat builder (and wannabe designer)

          Stefan
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... The relevance is that [at the start of the thread], there was a suggestion that boat designs might be best distributed using a GNU model. I fail to see how
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 3, 2004
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            > However I completely fail to see how this subject has any bearing
            > on the Bolger forum.
            > Bruce Fountain

            The relevance is that [at the start of the thread], there was a suggestion
            that boat designs might be best distributed using a GNU model.
            I fail to see how a GNU model could financially allow PB&F to
            dedicate their full creative time to creating new boat designs.

            The Red Hat example involves lots of copies sold at small margins.

            There just aren't enough customers of boat designs to allow that model.

            Some around here lament that the Bolger designs in the last two
            decades are not as simple and fun as the ones from the 1980's,
            the 'Instant Boat' fleet era.

            Indeed, the more recent PB&F boat designs tend to be larger
            fancier 'one off' designs, which not coincidentally, raise money
            for the design team more efficiently than the 'Instant Boat' type
            of boat designs ever did.

            Personally, I lament that PB&F doesn't favor more of the 'Instant Boat'
            types of designs, it doesn't make a living, sad but true.

            In a way, the 'GNU' analogy explains why PB&F is not motivated
            to design more 'Instant Boats'. They simply cannot afford to design
            such elegantly simple boats under a GNU model. Rather, they
            choose to design custom 'one off's' for well to do clients, that is their
            bread and butter.
          • Will Samson
            Bruce wrote: Personally, I lament that PB&F doesn t favor more of the Instant Boat types of designs, it doesn t make a living, sad but true. On the other
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 3, 2004
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              Bruce wrote:

              Personally, I lament that PB&F doesn't favor more of the 'Instant Boat'
              types of designs, it doesn't make a living, sad but true.

              On the other hand there are a wealth of instant boat designs out there - not just Bolger's but also others who have been greatly influenced by PCB, most notably Jim Michalak, but to a lesser extent lots of other designers who design for stich and glue and other straightforward construction methods.

              For example, I'm currently working on a fairly sophisticated stitch and glue kayak that has definite Bolger influences, though the use of the word 'instant' would be questionable!

              Unfortunately few other designers have got the communication skills of PCB or are able to reproduce the clarity and beauty of his drawings. Nevertheless, many of them are excellent naval architects and their work is admirable and rewarding to build.

              Bill

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Often, Phil Bolger took the instant boat concept to another level, not matched by Michalak, and others who followed. For instance, Pirate Racer, with the
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 3, 2004
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                Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
                > On the other hand there are a wealth of instant boat designs out there
                >- not just Bolger's but also others

                Often, Phil Bolger took the 'instant boat' concept to another level,
                not matched by Michalak, and others who followed.

                For instance, Pirate Racer, with the historically accuracy, plus the
                set of iconoclastic egalitarian 'racing rules' that accompanied the
                design. Capable for a purpose.

                Or, the simple utiltiy of Tortoise, capable for a purpose,
                too ugly to steal and cheap enough you wouldn't care.

                Similar for Birdwatcher, a capable boat for a specific purpose.

                These designs, measured not only physically,
                but also metaphysically, are a cut above the norm.

                Some GNU collaborative designs accomplish this too, Linux
                for instance. Still, I can't imagine GNU working as well for
                boat designs.
              • Howard Stephenson
                Don t forget PCB has practically given away some of his best designs by publishing them in full and inviting people implicity, and sometimes explicitly, to
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 3, 2004
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                  Don't forget PCB has practically given away some of his best designs
                  by publishing them in full and inviting people implicity, and
                  sometimes explicitly, to build them from the book.

                  Having spent so much on buying Bolger books, including two copies of
                  BWAOM, I wouldn't feel too guilty about building a boat from the book.

                  Howard
                • Paul
                  Someone recently gave me micro plans purchased from CSB in 2002. It contains in addition to the plans: Micro Key by Philip Bolger , 3 pages which contain the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 3, 2004
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                    Someone recently gave me micro plans purchased from CSB in 2002. It
                    contains in addition to the plans:

                    "Micro Key by Philip Bolger", 3 pages which contain the building key.

                    "Micro's How-To-Do-It Bulletin (key expansion) by Elrow La Rowe 1982
                    (updated 1992 by Bernie)", 5 pages of additional building notes which
                    follow the key.

                    "Lead Keel building" 2 pages of notes.

                    "How To Build Common Sense Boats" an 11 page pamphlet of general
                    building notes.

                    Seems silly they would send you the plans without the building key.
                    Seems even worse they won't give you the downloadable portion, when
                    they should figure you are already on the internet, and can easily
                    give them bad publicity.


                    > Yes the building manual I am looking for is the building key that
                    > matches the numbers on the plans.
                  • Paul
                    The Pirogue 12 plans are on this web page: http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/bolger.html with a notice saying Phil would like $25 if you build one,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 3, 2004
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                      The "Pirogue 12" plans are on this web page:
                      http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/bolger.html

                      with a notice saying Phil would like $25 if you build one, or 2% of
                      the purchase price if you build one and sell it.

                      I wonder how much money he has made from this "shareware" design?

                      Paul

                      > In a way, the 'GNU' analogy explains why PB&F is not motivated
                      > to design more 'Instant Boats'. They simply cannot afford to design
                      > such elegantly simple boats under a GNU model. Rather, they
                      > choose to design custom 'one off's' for well to do clients, that is
                      their
                      > bread and butter.
                    • Peter Lenihan
                      ... Bruce, It is indeed interesting stuff and it has oftened surprised me the things I ve learnt on this group but I do agree with you regarding the relevance
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 4, 2004
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
                        > I am familiar with the copyleft and similar licenses, and I met
                        > RMS about 8 years ago at a talk in Sydney. Interesting stuff.
                        > However I completely fail to see how this subject has any bearing
                        > on the Bolger forum.
                        >
                        > Bruce Fountain
                        > Systems Engineer
                        > Union Switch & Signal
                        > Perth, Western Australia

                        Bruce,
                        It is indeed interesting stuff and it has oftened surprised me
                        the things I've learnt on this group but I do agree with you
                        regarding the relevance on the main Bolger forum.
                        What should be done is to encourage and invite those interested
                        in expanding and exponding on this slighty off-topic field(or any
                        other for that matter!) on over
                        to the virtual Bolger coffee lounge found here:

                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_coffee_lounge/?yguid=33031986

                        Lots of nifty subjects could be vented there,without the need to
                        leave entirely the Bolger realm.Lots of file/photo space too to post
                        cool non-Bolger-non-nautical stuff for general interest like
                        avaition etc.......

                        Now,if only some genius could come up with a method of pouring
                        oneself a real cup of coffee or other beverage "right off the
                        net"..........!

                        Sincerely,

                        Peter Lenihan,enjoying my first taste of yet another winter-
                        wonderland with a brisk -17C chill-factored breeze serving to
                        underline its arrival along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
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