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design ideas

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  • Zack Tiger
    I have been building rather a large number of boats recently in my cerebral boatyard . Most of these are designed and built only cerebrally , but some get
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 2, 2004
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      I have been building rather a large number of boats
      recently in my "cerebral boatyard". Most of these are
      designed and built only "cerebrally", but some get put
      down on paper and get fleshed out and detailed.
      While i was at work yesterday, I saw something that
      inspired yet another deswign. I work at a nuclear
      power plant, and we had a contractor in to harvest
      weeds from the intake channel (which supplies large
      volumes of cooling water to the condensers).
      This rig was about 25' long, and was essentially a
      steel scow with a chute at the front to scoop and cut
      weeds, and a conveyor belt to move them to a storage
      bin in the stern. Pretty tame stuff....except for one
      thing....
      As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
      diesel powered side-wheeler! It has a Detroit Deisel
      four cylinder engine (either a 4-53 or 4-71) coupled
      via a gearbox (Allison automatic) to a modified rear
      axle. This whole rig could be lifted from an old
      school bus intact! My mind pictured a shantyboat form,
      like Shanteuse or Harmonica, with open fretted side
      paddle wheel boxes, her hull all in white with red or
      dark green trim, a wire-stayed black smokestack made
      from stovepipe, with a crown cap and "foghorn"
      whistle. A small cabin aft, and canvas surrey top
      forward,similar to Paul Esterle's "Winton M. Green",
      draped in "icicle' Christmas lights (powered by the
      battery mounted inverter), she would be a dream slowly
      chugging up the lake at sunset, while the crew and
      passengers sat on lawn chairs, watching the steaks
      cook on the small hibachi, glasses of cold something
      in hand (can you TASTE it Bruce?)
      Perhaps instead of the school bus power unit, I could
      revamp the old VW rabbit deisel from the houseboat
      days..hmmmmm, it has a transverse mount with two
      halfshafts.......differential braking could provide
      steering.....oh god, here we go! I can see the wife
      shivering already! Yet another crazy project!

      Offered for your comments and ideas...........



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    • jAMES fITCH
      Yeee- Homer!!!!!!!!- Zack Tiger wrote:I have been building rather a large number of boats recently in my cerebral boatyard . Most of
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 2, 2004
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        Yeee- Homer!!!!!!!!-

        Zack Tiger <zackalicious@...> wrote:I have been building rather a large number of boats
        recently in my "cerebral boatyard". Most of these are
        designed and built only "cerebrally", but some get put
        down on paper and get fleshed out and detailed.
        While i was at work yesterday, I saw something that
        inspired yet another deswign. I work at a nuclear
        power plant, and we had a contractor in to harvest
        weeds from the intake channel (which supplies large
        volumes of cooling water to the condensers).
        This rig was about 25' long, and was essentially a
        steel scow with a chute at the front to scoop and cut
        weeds, and a conveyor belt to move them to a storage
        bin in the stern. Pretty tame stuff....except for one
        thing....
        As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
        diesel powered side-wheeler! It has a Detroit Deisel
        four cylinder engine (either a 4-53 or 4-71) coupled
        via a gearbox (Allison automatic) to a modified rear
        axle. This whole rig could be lifted from an old
        school bus intact! My mind pictured a shantyboat form,
        like Shanteuse or Harmonica, with open fretted side
        paddle wheel boxes, her hull all in white with red or
        dark green trim, a wire-stayed black smokestack made
        from stovepipe, with a crown cap and "foghorn"
        whistle. A small cabin aft, and canvas surrey top
        forward,similar to Paul Esterle's "Winton M. Green",
        draped in "icicle' Christmas lights (powered by the
        battery mounted inverter), she would be a dream slowly
        chugging up the lake at sunset, while the crew and
        passengers sat on lawn chairs, watching the steaks
        cook on the small hibachi, glasses of cold something
        in hand (can you TASTE it Bruce?)
        Perhaps instead of the school bus power unit, I could
        revamp the old VW rabbit deisel from the houseboat
        days..hmmmmm, it has a transverse mount with two
        halfshafts.......differential braking could provide
        steering.....oh god, here we go! I can see the wife
        shivering already! Yet another crazy project!

        Offered for your comments and ideas...........



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      • Howard Stephenson
        You re not the only one, Zack. Something I ve never understood about paddlewheels is how to work out the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of the
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 2, 2004
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          You're not the only one, Zack.

          Something I've never understood about paddlewheels is how to work out
          the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of the paddlewheel,
          have to move backwards faster than the speed of the water moving past
          the hull; but how much faster? Does anyone know? And what is the rule
          of thumb that determines the under-water area of the paddle blades?

          Whatever the required speed is, the paddleshaft(s) would have to turn
          a lot slower than the half-shafts of a road-vehicle.

          Getting back to Bolger: The Folding Schooner shows, in the Toy
          Riverboat chapter, a 20'5" x 8' sidewheeler, styled like an old
          Mississippi sternwheeler. The design uses a 5 hp diesel with 2:1
          reduction, a diff and half-shafts from a VW Rabbit (I think Bolger
          owned one at the time), with a double-reduction system of belts and
          cogged wheels to drive the paddles.

          I don't think the design uses the steering system, you propose, Zac.
          This is how tracked vehicles steer, isn't it?

          Howard

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Zack Tiger <zackalicious@y...> wrote:
          > I have been building rather a large number of boats
          > recently in my "cerebral boatyard".

          > As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
          > diesel powered side-wheeler!
        • Jeff
          ... I ve done a lot of research on this recently and here s what I ve found out on paddlewheels. There is no set rule as to RPM but most stern wheels rotate
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2004
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            >Something I've never understood about paddlewheels is how to work out
            >the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of the paddlewheel,
            >have to move backwards faster than the speed of the water moving past
            >the hull; but how much faster? Does anyone know? And what is the rule
            >of thumb that determines the under-water area of the paddle blades?
            >
            >Whatever the required speed is, the paddleshaft(s) would have to turn
            >a lot slower than the half-shafts of a road-vehicle.


            I've done a lot of research on this recently and here's what I've found out on paddlewheels.

            There is no set rule as to RPM but most stern wheels rotate anywhere from 40 to 100 RPM with 60 - 65 being the most common RPM. Unless you have a specially built wheel like Bolger designs on his Fast Sternwheeler you get a lot of foam and air injected going faster than 100 RPM causing very low efficiency.

            You should figure at least 30% slip and probably closer to 50%. In a rough estimate you can figure the required RPM by the wheel diameter and intended speed. So if you intend to build your boat to hit 10 MPH using a 6 foot diameter wheel you first get the circumference of the wheel which is 18.84 feet. To go ten miles per hour you need to cover (5280 feet X 10 miles ) divided by 60 minutes or 880 feet per minute. Since the paddle is 18.84 feet around you need about 47 RPM then allow for 30% slip, you'd need about 60 RPM on the wheel. Of course the thrust is based on power and paddles, this is just the speed you need on the wheel to get to 10 MPH.

            The rule of thumb is one paddle for every 1 foot of diameter plus 2. On a 6 foot tall wheel, that's 8 paddles.

            The paddle size is somewhat guess work based on length, width, depth, and HP. One rule that is floating around the WWW is to divide your HP by the feet in width of the paddle wheel to get the inches of paddle width PLUS 2 inches. If the wheel is 5 feet wide using a 30HP motor you get an 8" paddle. But, 1 or 2 inches make a big difference in how well the engine can handle the wheel and how efficient the wheel is to the power, oh, and changing RPM will affect things as well.

            Here's a good site to start with http://gemort.wirefire.com/contents.htm

            Jeff


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Derek Waters
            Hmm, paddlewheelers. Just to add to the mischief, I ll mention that the rusty yard tractor out in the shed has a 12 horse B&S twin, and a belt coupled six
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 2, 2004
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              Hmm, paddlewheelers. Just to add to the mischief, I'll mention that the
              rusty yard tractor out in the shed has a 12 horse B&S twin, and a belt
              coupled six speed transaxle. Noisy, aircooled but cheap. Extension shafts
              would drive side wheels & the gears might ease paddlewheel design [and
              extend the useable speed range].

              For a while I toyed with locking the differential in the transaxle and
              building a sternwheeler shantyboat. The annoying exhaust noise could be
              pushed up a riverboat style stack and the shaft which wasn't coupled to the
              drive could turn a squirrel cage to force vent air through the
              sound-deadening engine enclosure.

              cheers
              Derek
            • Howard Stephenson
              Thanks for that, Jeff. I ll have a look at that site. Maybe it will lead me to an answer to questions as to: 1) how deeply do the blades need to be immersed
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 2, 2004
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                Thanks for that, Jeff. I'll have a look at that site. Maybe it will
                lead me to an answer to questions as to: 1) how deeply do the blades
                need to be immersed and 2) whether they should be mounted radially,
                or tilted slightly. Radial mounting seems to be almost universal.

                Recently I saw an interesting TV program about early ocean-going
                paddlesteamers. I was aware of the problem of varying blade immersion
                as waves move along along the hull or as displacement varies, but
                hadn't considered that there is a steering problem when there are
                transverse waves, which cause alternate paddles to push harder. I.K.
                Brunel solution was to use fore-and-aft sails to limit the boat's
                roll and thus make paddle immersion more constant.

                No wonder the screw propellor quickly became almost universal, except
                for a few cases like the one you describe, Jeff, or for passenger
                boats on calm lakes.

                Howard

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                >
                > Here's a good site to start with
                http://gemort.wirefire.com/contents.htm
              • Paul W. Esterle
                Build it and they will come! (for a steak, so will I) Paul
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 2, 2004
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                  Build it and they will come! (for a steak, so will I)

                  Paul
                • Jeff
                  Typical blade depth on paddle wheels is to have the top of the paddle about 1 or 2 inches below the water line at rest. There are no proof in racing or
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 3, 2004
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                    Typical blade depth on paddle wheels is to have the top of the paddle about 1 or 2 inches below the water line at rest. There are no proof in racing or pushing contest that the herringbone designs are better than just straight paddles so I would think going straight would be easier to install and maintain.

                    Propellers are more efficient since they don't have to compress water on the front side and lift water on the backside of the wheel. Even with the advent of complicated tilting mechanisms that would keep the paddle at 90 degrees to the water the propeller was still more efficient.

                    Your right on all accounts for the side wheelers. Any quartering waves made the boat yaw around with steering problems. Stern wheels would lift their wheels clear of the water as they went over swells which was just as bad. The only argument for paddle boats today are nastolgia.

                    I'd enjoy owning one just for the wow and fun factor.

                    Jeff


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Zack Tiger
                    Hi Jeff, Howard. Even more serious for the ocean going paddlewheeler, when steaming at ninety to 180 degrees off the wind, is the tendency for waves on the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 7, 2004
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                      Hi Jeff, Howard.
                      Even more serious for the ocean going paddlewheeler,
                      when steaming at ninety to 180 degrees off the wind,
                      is the tendency for waves on the windward side to
                      provide a lifting effect or pressure on the inside of
                      the paddlebox,causing the ship to capsize. This is how
                      Portland met her death.
                      Feathering paddlewheels accomodate diferent paddle
                      pressures and depths, but are complex. I am planning
                      for very calm, interior waters,so straight,radial
                      paddles should be okay. Besides, that little 9.9hp
                      concealed in a well aft will help with docking and
                      assist in getting inshore quick in the faceof
                      worsening weather.

                      --- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Thanks for that, Jeff. I'll have a look at that
                      > site. Maybe it will
                      > lead me to an answer to questions as to: 1) how
                      > deeply do the blades
                      > need to be immersed and 2) whether they should be
                      > mounted radially,
                      > or tilted slightly. Radial mounting seems to be
                      > almost universal.
                      >
                      > Recently I saw an interesting TV program about early
                      > ocean-going
                      > paddlesteamers. I was aware of the problem of
                      > varying blade immersion
                      > as waves move along along the hull or as
                      > displacement varies, but
                      > hadn't considered that there is a steering problem
                      > when there are
                      > transverse waves, which cause alternate paddles to
                      > push harder. I.K.
                      > Brunel solution was to use fore-and-aft sails to
                      > limit the boat's
                      > roll and thus make paddle immersion more constant.
                      >
                      > No wonder the screw propellor quickly became almost
                      > universal, except
                      > for a few cases like the one you describe, Jeff, or
                      > for passenger
                      > boats on calm lakes.
                      >
                      > Howard
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff"
                      > <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Here's a good site to start with
                      > http://gemort.wirefire.com/contents.htm
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >




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                    • Zack Tiger
                      Riverboat paddlewheel steamers used rudders to steer, especially the stern wheelers. There were conventional rudders, but also monkey rudders placed ahead of
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 7, 2004
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                        Riverboat paddlewheel steamers used rudders to steer,
                        especially the stern wheelers. There were conventional
                        rudders, but also "monkey" rudders placed ahead of the
                        wheel.
                        My idea of using differtial steering was taken from
                        how tracked vehicles operate. It may be too complex
                        for the simple boat I have in mind.

                        --- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > You're not the only one, Zack.
                        >
                        > Something I've never understood about paddlewheels
                        > is how to work out
                        > the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of
                        > the paddlewheel,
                        > have to move backwards faster than the speed of the
                        > water moving past
                        > the hull; but how much faster? Does anyone know? And
                        > what is the rule
                        > of thumb that determines the under-water area of the
                        > paddle blades?
                        >
                        > Whatever the required speed is, the paddleshaft(s)
                        > would have to turn
                        > a lot slower than the half-shafts of a road-vehicle.
                        >
                        > Getting back to Bolger: The Folding Schooner shows,
                        > in the Toy
                        > Riverboat chapter, a 20'5" x 8' sidewheeler, styled
                        > like an old
                        > Mississippi sternwheeler. The design uses a 5 hp
                        > diesel with 2:1
                        > reduction, a diff and half-shafts from a VW Rabbit
                        > (I think Bolger
                        > owned one at the time), with a double-reduction
                        > system of belts and
                        > cogged wheels to drive the paddles.
                        >
                        > I don't think the design uses the steering system,
                        > you propose, Zac.
                        > This is how tracked vehicles steer, isn't it?
                        >
                        > Howard
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Zack Tiger
                        > <zackalicious@y...> wrote:
                        > > I have been building rather a large number of
                        > boats
                        > > recently in my "cerebral boatyard".
                        >
                        > > As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was
                        > a
                        > > diesel powered side-wheeler!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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