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Inboard Sneakeasy

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  • dwhittington9
    Hello all, Has anyone built or heard of anyone installing a traditional inboard set-up in a Sneakeasy. I have read the interesting installation of the Kitchen
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
      Hello all,
      Has anyone built or heard of anyone installing a traditional
      inboard set-up in a Sneakeasy. I have read the interesting
      installation of the Kitchen rudder set-up. I am interested in
      information and direction on motor weight limit, placement, prop to
      transom dimensions and filling in the transom tails. I will build it
      with the outboard if the inboard set-up seems problematic, but I
      really prefer a small four cylinder inboard installation. Losing the
      shallow draft is not an issue.
      Dave Whittington.
    • Jeff
      Hi Dave, I m the one with the Kitchen rudder with the Sneakeasy. Here s a few of my thoughts on your ideas. As to losing the shallow draft the biggest problem
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
        Hi Dave, I'm the one with the Kitchen rudder with the Sneakeasy. Here's a few of my thoughts on your ideas.

        As to losing the shallow draft the biggest problem is the boat design. If you add enough weight to drop her down past the designed draft of about 3 inches you'll have a boat that handles terrible. The nose on a power sharpie should never be buried except when in chop where it can power through almost immediately.

        Adding enough weight to handle a small 4 banger with a transmission would add at least 600 lbs. Enough to drop the Sneakeasy another 2 or 3 inches and add have some handling problems with center of gravity with the weight distribution that high.

        Don't forget the speed issue. Pushing the Sneakeasy past 25 MPH would be dangerous in handling and structural problems. You'd have to build the boat with more rise at the bow, beefed up materials in plywood, stringers, etc. to handle the pounding without breaking up. This also adds weight making for more changes.

        Finding some way to add a transmission to a small inboard engine like my Kawasaki 20 HP would be a much better way. The entire engine and drive assemble weighs about what an outboard weighs. You could probably push it to 30 HP with an inboard because of the additional drag and still be safe enough. Using a traditional rudder setup you could leave the Drake tails alone or even modify them to a true slipper stern or simply extend the natural sheer line aft to the full length of the boat and add a nice flat or curved stern.


        Jeff

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: dwhittington9
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 11:56 AM
        Subject: [bolger] Inboard Sneakeasy




        Hello all,
        Has anyone built or heard of anyone installing a traditional
        inboard set-up in a Sneakeasy. I have read the interesting
        installation of the Kitchen rudder set-up. I am interested in
        information and direction on motor weight limit, placement, prop to
        transom dimensions and filling in the transom tails. I will build it
        with the outboard if the inboard set-up seems problematic, but I
        really prefer a small four cylinder inboard installation. Losing the
        shallow draft is not an issue.
        Dave Whittington.







        Bolger rules!!!
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      • hal
        ... The box cutwater version should help the handling problem. ... The CG could be problematic. Moving the passengers aft with the engine just ahead of them
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
          On Oct 8, 2004, at 1:04 PM, Jeff wrote:
          > As to losing the shallow draft the biggest problem is the boat design.
          > If you add enough weight to drop her down past the designed draft of
          > about 3 inches you'll have a boat that handles terrible. The nose on
          > a power sharpie should never be buried except when in chop where it
          > can power through almost immediately.

          The box cutwater version should help the handling problem.

          > Adding enough weight to handle a small 4 banger with a transmission
          > would add at least 600 lbs. Enough to drop the Sneakeasy another 2 or
          > 3 inches and add have some handling problems with center of gravity
          > with the weight distribution that high.

          The CG could be problematic. Moving the passengers aft with the
          engine just ahead of them might work.

          > Don't forget the speed issue. Pushing the Sneakeasy past 25 MPH would
          > be dangerous in handling and structural problems. You'd have to build
          > the boat with more rise at the bow, beefed up materials in plywood,
          > stringers, etc. to handle the pounding without breaking up. This also
          > adds weight making for more changes.

          The box cutwater Sneakeasy may go faster safely but it would have
          to be stronger.
          >
          > Finding some way to add a transmission to a small inboard engine like
          > my Kawasaki 20 HP would be a much better way. The entire engine and
          > drive assemble weighs about what an outboard weighs. You could
          > probably push it to 30 HP with an inboard because of the additional
          > drag and still be safe enough. Using a traditional rudder setup you
          > could leave the Drake tails alone or even modify them to a true
          > slipper stern or simply extend the natural sheer line aft to the full
          > length of the boat and add a nice flat or curved stern.

          All true.

          Since I have never seen a Sneakeasy up close and personal my
          comments may not be worth much, but I have thought about it a lot.

          My thoughts:
          put a "real" bottom on it.
          mid engine, crew aft just like the classics.
          widen it to 5 feet.

          Presto you no longer have a Sneakeasy. You have a completely
          different boat with a family resemblance.

          The conclusion I always come to is:
          build a box cutwater Sneakeasy as it was designed
          or
          design a new boat using the Sneakeasy as inspiration.

          hal
        • Howard Stephenson
          I guess that leaves the forum open for us to suggest better options. I can t think of a Bolger planing inboard powerboat in this size- range. A possibly might
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
            I guess that leaves the forum open for us to suggest better options.

            I can't think of a Bolger planing inboard powerboat in this size-
            range. A possibly might be Snow Leopard (BWAOM, V8 powered, 28' x 7')
            scaled to about 22' x 5'6" to halve the displacement and power
            requirement. Its styling is suitably old-fashioned but it wouldn't be
            easy to build -- compound curves everywhere, including the topsides
            and deck.

            It used to be common to adapt automotive engines to marine use by
            mounting them in the boat with the flywheel forward, to keep the
            engine low in the boat. The drive was taken off the front of the
            engine. There would be no transmission at all: once the engine was
            running, the boat would be moving.

            Glen-L has a very good book on inboard motor installation. Back-to-
            front installations are covered.

            Howard

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
            > Hi Dave, I'm the one with the Kitchen rudder with the Sneakeasy.
            Here's a few of my thoughts on your ideas.
          • Jeff
            ... It really wouldn t take much to make the Sneakeasy capable for a bigger inboard but then she d cease being a Sneakeasy but what the heck building our
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
              >I guess that leaves the forum open for us to suggest better options.

              It really wouldn't take much to make the Sneakeasy capable for a bigger inboard but then she'd cease being a Sneakeasy but what the heck building our concepts and ideas is part of being "amateur" builders.

              Here are some ideas for the Sneakeasy.

              1. Use 1/2" plywood on the side panels and doubled the 1/2" ply on the bottom.

              2. Make 4 foot long 2x8 stringers for each bulkhead. Cut these from full width at the center to 2" at each end. Attach these to the bottom of each bulkhead and trim to length. This will create a constant deadrise along her length for a slight vee hull shape. This will strengthen the bottom tremendously especially with the doubled plywood. Use 2x4 chine logs and sheer logs. Double up the bulkheads to 1/2" plywood as well.

              3.Double the rise at the bow for a 6 inch draft.

              4. Epoxy and glass the joint where the hull bottom panels would meet down the center with as many layers of epoxy and fiberglass tape as your patience would allow.


              Technically it wouldn't be a Sneakeasy but it sure would look like one. It will easily double the cost and time to construct but she'd be capable of higher speeds and hard to tell the difference between a stock Sneakeasy. With a 120 HP 4 cylinder like the Mercruiser this version of a Sneakeasy would just plain be fast. I wouldn't doubt she'd approach 40 MPH and I still wouldn't turn much at high speeds.

              What a blast to be seen cruising down a river or lake at that speed in a boat that looks like a Sneakeasy. She'd turn heads for sure.

              Now back to reality with my own Sneakeasy, 12 MPH hoping for 14MPH with some modifications. That's still fast enough for me since we like to cruise not scream across the lake like a cat with it tail dipped in turpentine.

              Jeff

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dwhittington9
              Thanks for all the info so quick gents. I guess I need to figure out what power plant to use. Most likely a marinized automotive engine. Smallest I can find. I
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
                Thanks for all the info so quick gents. I guess I need to figure out
                what power plant to use. Most likely a marinized automotive engine.
                Smallest I can find. I am familliar with inboard installations and
                the Glen-L book. I should be able to find a small 10 year old 4
                cylinder that I can convert and detune if needed. I don't plan on
                going over 30 and I've seen enough hard chined flatbottoms trip to
                know not to play circle racer. I just want a different boat to
                cruise up and down the river in. For a transmission I could use a
                Casale Z-drive with reverse for reverse and neutral functions. They
                weigh about 70 lbs or so. I want to stick with the flat bottom
                Sneakeasy as I like the thought of low wakes. The though of moving
                the seats aft is interesting and will give that thought. I will most
                likely cover the sides and bottom with glass/epoxy if I go inboard.
                Do you think I need two 1/2" bottom planks or one 1/2" and one 1/4"?
                Do the plans have the CG marked, or will I need to buid to plans to
                find out where it is? I will probably build the original version in
                basic form with the outboard to see how it performs. I'm in the
                middle of a Glen-L electric launch right now, but I fell in love
                with the Sneakeasy lines as soon as I saw them. Dave Whittington
              • Howard Stephenson
                To me, converting a flat-bottomed design into a vee-bottomed one is not feasible. You should start with a clean sheet of paper. A better option might be to
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
                  To me, converting a flat-bottomed design into a vee-bottomed one is
                  not feasible. You should start with a clean sheet of paper.

                  A better option might be to look at some of the other Bolger designs
                  in the same series, which includes Sneakeasy, Tennessee, Idaho,
                  Dakota, Wyoming, and Illinois. Idaho might be big enough and its
                  centre of buoyancy is relatively farther forward than Sneakeasy's.
                  There is also the possibility of a small scale-up or down of one of
                  these.

                  Howard


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Here are some ideas for the Sneakeasy.
                • Hugo Tyson
                  hal wrote: My thoughts: put a real bottom on it. mid engine, crew aft just like the classics. widen it to 5 feet. Presto you no longer have
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
                    hal <hal@...> wrote:


                    "My thoughts:
                    put a "real" bottom on it.
                    mid engine, crew aft just like the classics.
                    widen it to 5 feet.

                    Presto you no longer have a Sneakeasy. You have a completely
                    different boat with a family resemblance.

                    The conclusion I always come to is:
                    build a box cutwater Sneakeasy as it was designed
                    or
                    design a new boat using the Sneakeasy as inspiration.

                    hal"

                    Hal,

                    Phil Bolger is currently designing me an Inboard Runabout based on the "Snow Leopard" design featured in his book "BWAOM". The new design is slightly smaller at 26' x 6'6'' and will, according to Bolger, only require an engine of about 130 HP to exceed 30+ Knots.



                    The new design is called "Silver Blaze", its not finished yet, and I'm not sure how much progress Bolger has made on it since I spoke to him in late January, but I'm hoping it will be completed before the year ends.

                    One of the requirements was that the styling was to be based apon the "Snow Leopard" design, though how closely is yet to be seen as I've yet to see any drwaings!

                    Hugo Tyson, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.





                    Bolger rules!!!
                    - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                  • Hugo Tyson
                    I forgot to mention in my previous post, that the Silver Blaze inboard Torpedo-stern runabout (26 x 6 6 )that Bolger is currently designing for me is
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 8, 2004
                      I forgot to mention in my previous post, that the "Silver Blaze" inboard Torpedo-stern runabout (26' x 6' 6'')that Bolger is currently designing for me is designed to make almost no wake at displacement speeds and when on the plane she's supposed to ride fairly level without dragging her stern or pointing her bow way up in the air. In no wake zones she's supposed to be able to run faster than other planing power boats.

                      She's quite a bit removed from the "Sneakeasy", being far more complicated and costly to build in that she'll be fibreglass sheathed strip-planked construction. A round bottom hull with lots of curves and a pointed "Torpedo" stern. Full positive buoyancy in the case of a bad accident!!. Comfortable Seating for six adults. The engine is to be located forward of the two cockpits and will be a relatively lightweight (Alloy block?) large 4cylinder to very small Alloy V8 of no more than 4.0 litres capacity. Bolger told me that she'd require about 100-130HP to achieve 30+ Knots, so with a small 4.0L DOHC Alloy V8, like a Toyota Lexus engine of about 200-250HP she should be capable of at least 40 Knots, maybe even 50.

                      "The Silver Blaze" design will incorporate a few novel features like a closed system radiator cooled Auto engine to eliminate a few holes thru the hull as in a conventional inboard installation. A dry exhaust (Though I think that there might be a heat problem with this, epoxy and fibreglass and wood doesn't like very high temperatures!)

                      Another novel feature will be a retractable propeller, shaft and rudder system using "Aqua Drive" Marine CV joints and thrust bearings, enabling easy beaching of the boat without damaging the propeller and rudder etc. It may also make launching and retreiving easier, though by how much I'm not sure, if it'll make launching/retreiving any easier at all.

                      She'll also have adjustable trim tabs (So Susanne told me). The cockpit layout will have a two seat cockpit near the stern with the helm and controls. A larger cockpit forward of that will have 4 seats, 2 facing forward, 2 facing aft, with enough room to camp-cruise in if one so desired. A awning / tent arrangement could be erected over this cockpit.

                      The engine will be located forward of the large central cockpit, therefore it will have to be lightweight, no large (5.0L +) iron block V8.

                      We originally talked about a Subaru 3.3L Alloy Flat-six engine of about 185-200 HP, but here in Australia they're fairly rare, so we'll probably end up using a more readily available engine like an all alloy V-6 of between 2.8L - 3.6 L and abot 180HP. The new Holden "Commodore" has an all alloy 3.6 L V-6 of about 200HP and this might be a very good choice as its basically a Buick engine and the bell housing will match up easily with most marine gearboxes.

                      That's about all I know about the design at the moment and knowing Bolger some details might have changed since I spoke to him and Susanne in late January this year.

                      Hugo Tyson, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.

                      Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:

                      To me, converting a flat-bottomed design into a vee-bottomed one is
                      not feasible. You should start with a clean sheet of paper.

                      A better option might be to look at some of the other Bolger designs
                      in the same series, which includes Sneakeasy, Tennessee, Idaho,
                      Dakota, Wyoming, and Illinois. Idaho might be big enough and its
                      centre of buoyancy is relatively farther forward than Sneakeasy's.
                      There is also the possibility of a small scale-up or down of one of
                      these.

                      Howard


                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Here are some ideas for the Sneakeasy.






                      Bolger rules!!!
                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                      - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                    • Mark
                      One can see centers for both gravity and buoyancy are about where the seats are now. Some pictures I ve seen show it lifting pretty high at the bow with the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 9, 2004
                        One can see centers for both gravity and buoyancy are about where the seats are now. Some
                        pictures I've seen show it lifting pretty high at the bow with the people congregating
                        with the outboard at the stern.

                        Once knowing all the weights, you owe it to yourself to check the flotation in Greg's
                        Hulls. A good representation, sneak1.hul, is already there. Just reset displacement. The
                        designer's 3" draft is essential to the low wake running, so keeping the crew to two could
                        be imperative.
                        (just looked) A 1000 pounds displacement draws about 3.5" CB is 175" from the bow. The
                        stem just barely into the water.

                        The smallest readily found auto engine I can think of is the 50 hp. 1L, 3 cylinder job out
                        of a Geo Metro / Suzuki Swift. Originally a motorcycle design, they're pretty torquey in a
                        1500 pound car at low engine speed.

                        Woodenboat #134 beautifully details converting a1985 Subaru, all aluminum, 100 hp flat
                        four weighing only 279 pounds for marine use. A Hurth transmission at 28 pounds; then cog
                        and sprockets, thrust bearing, and weldments brought the total to just 345.

                        You might find Bolger's Viper design interesting. That's basically a 20 x 4 foot Sneak
                        using a 15 hp, 350 pound Yanmar diesel. More to the point is the steam powered Sneakeasy
                        precursor Firebrand. That's nearly the same hull, just a little more rocker at the bow,
                        and the displacement is okay at 1500 pounds. The bench goes a little forward with the
                        boiler just behind. There's a pretty steep shaft angle in both that are carried over from
                        the original inspiration Hickman design. Both in 30-Odd-Boats.

                        Best o'luck,
                        Mark









                        dwhittington9 wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks for all the info so quick gents. I guess I need to figure out
                        > what power plant to use. Most likely a marinized automotive engine.
                        > Smallest I can find. I am familliar with inboard installations and
                        > the Glen-L book. I should be able to find a small 10 year old 4
                        > cylinder that I can convert and detune if needed. I don't plan on
                        > going over 30 and I've seen enough hard chined flatbottoms trip to
                        > know not to play circle racer. I just want a different boat to
                        > cruise up and down the river in. For a transmission I could use a
                        > Casale Z-drive with reverse for reverse and neutral functions. They
                        > weigh about 70 lbs or so. I want to stick with the flat bottom
                        > Sneakeasy as I like the thought of low wakes. The though of moving
                        > the seats aft is interesting and will give that thought. I will most
                        > likely cover the sides and bottom with glass/epoxy if I go inboard.
                        > Do you think I need two 1/2" bottom planks or one 1/2" and one 1/4"?
                        > Do the plans have the CG marked, or will I need to buid to plans to
                        > find out where it is? I will probably build the original version in
                        > basic form with the outboard to see how it performs. I'm in the
                        > middle of a Glen-L electric launch right now, but I fell in love
                        > with the Sneakeasy lines as soon as I saw them. Dave Whittington
                      • Mark
                        Oops. The Bolger Firebrand s displacement is only 1120 pounds, about what I expect an outboard powered Sneakeasy is designed for.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 9, 2004
                          Oops. The Bolger Firebrand's displacement is only 1120 pounds, about what I expect an
                          outboard powered Sneakeasy is designed for.
                        • donschultz8275
                          Keep in mind the following is my opinion which is not nearly as well informed as many here. ... bigger inboard but then she d cease being a Sneakeasy but what
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 9, 2004
                            Keep in mind the following is my opinion which is not nearly as well
                            informed as many here.

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                            >
                            > It really wouldn't take much to make the Sneakeasy capable for a
                            bigger inboard but then she'd cease being a Sneakeasy but what the
                            heck building our concepts and ideas is part of being "amateur" builders.
                            >
                            end quote

                            You might also think about starting with a set of Idaho plans which is
                            a bigger version of pretty much the same hull, but still very trailerable.

                            Realistically, I think one needs to think in terms of an engine that
                            comes from Briggs & Stratton, or Kohler rather than a "small" 4
                            banger. An 18-25 hp lawn&garden class engine would not weigh much.
                            Maybe 125lbs. A transmission adapted from a small car, or even lawn &
                            garden equipment would also keep the weight minimal.

                            Such a powerplant would keep you within the designed performance range
                            intended for Sneakeasy, or Idaho.

                            As Jeff said, the mods he suggests are a different boat, not a Sneakeasy.
                          • Howard Stephenson
                            These days, nearly every 4-cyl. auto engine (except, I think, the Subaru) is mounted sideways and drive is to the front wheels. Does this layout make the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 9, 2004
                              These days, nearly every 4-cyl. auto engine (except, I think, the
                              Subaru) is mounted sideways and drive is to the front wheels. Does
                              this layout make the engines harder to adapt to marine use than the
                              old way, where the engine is fore-and-aft, with a gearbox behind it
                              and a propellor shaft connecting the gearbox to the rear wheels
                              through a differential?

                              I wouldn't have a boat with an inboard petrol engine -- too
                              dangerous, in my view, although the risk is minimized if it's
                              installed properly. The best small light automotive turbo-diesel
                              engines come from Europe, as far as I know, and they would not be
                              easy to find second-hand outside Europe. They'd still be much heavier
                              than petrol engines of the same power.

                              Howard
                            • hal
                              ... I was aware of this. I have admired the Snow Leopard design, but I am sure it is beyond my skill level. I hope PCB gets you some plans soon. And please
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 9, 2004
                                On Oct 8, 2004, at 7:53 PM, Hugo Tyson wrote:
                                >
                                > Phil Bolger is currently designing me an Inboard Runabout based on the
                                > "Snow Leopard" design featured in his book "BWAOM". The new design is
                                > slightly smaller at 26' x 6'6'' and will, according to Bolger, only
                                > require an engine of about 130 HP to exceed 30+ Knots.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The new design is called "Silver Blaze", its not finished yet, and I'm
                                > not sure how much progress Bolger has made on it since I spoke to him
                                > in late January, but I'm hoping it will be completed before the year
                                > ends.

                                I was aware of this. I have admired the Snow Leopard design,
                                but I am sure it is beyond my skill level. I hope PCB gets
                                you some plans soon. And please share enough to make us
                                jealous.

                                hal
                              • donschultz8275
                                ... Actually a transverse engine/trans combo from any of a large number of cars would make for a very compact drive system because the trans lays alongside
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 10, 2004
                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > These days, nearly every 4-cyl. auto engine (except, I think, the
                                  > Subaru) is mounted sideways and drive is to the front wheels. Does
                                  > this layout make the engines harder to adapt to marine use than the
                                  > old way, where the engine is fore-and-aft, with a gearbox behind it
                                  > and a propellor shaft connecting the gearbox to the rear wheels
                                  > through a differential?

                                  Actually a transverse engine/trans combo from any of a large number of
                                  cars would make for a very compact drive system because the trans lays
                                  alongside rather than behind the engine. This will offset the engine
                                  to one side of the center line of the boat, but the weight could be
                                  offset by the battery, fuel and other interior design choices.

                                  An upside is that your junkyard engine choices range from tiny Korean
                                  and Jap vehicles up through a 4.9 liter 200hp+ Cadillac of the early
                                  90's Sedan de Ville. You'll need to take the entire wiring harness and
                                  computer from the car.

                                  It would be necessary to weld the spider gears to lock the
                                  differential in any of these engine/trans combos. It's an old stock
                                  car racing trick to do this in a fully assembled diff', catching the
                                  slag in heavy grease and cleaning it out afterward. One of the
                                  half-shafts with its CV joints would connect to the propeller shaft
                                  and a plate would need to be made to cover the other half-shaft port.

                                  Of course there would be much other work to do on the exhaust, and the
                                  cooling circuit. The great majority of engines would be gasoline
                                  (petrol) which is nasty stuff in an inboard boat.

                                  Also your boat would have to haul around the automotive transmission
                                  which will always have more gears and weight than necessary, but you
                                  would avoid the cost and work of adapting a "marine" reduction gear to
                                  match the prop to the automotive engine rpm.
                                • David Whittington
                                  ... Here s a few of my thoughts on your ideas. ... design. If you add enough weight to drop her down past the designed draft of about 3 inches you ll have a
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 22, 2004
                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                                    > Hi Dave, I'm the one with the Kitchen rudder with the Sneakeasy.
                                    Here's a few of my thoughts on your ideas.
                                    >
                                    > As to losing the shallow draft the biggest problem is the boat
                                    design. If you add enough weight to drop her down past the designed
                                    draft of about 3 inches you'll have a boat that handles terrible.
                                    >
                                    > Finding some way to add a transmission to a small inboard engine
                                    like my Kawasaki 20 HP would be a much better way. The entire engine
                                    and drive assemble weighs about what an outboard weighs. >
                                    > Jeff
                                    >
                                    Hi Jeff,
                                    Thanks for yours and everyone elses comments. I did some
                                    investigating since then with the plans, books, mags, and the hulls
                                    program. I found that if I fill in the tails to make a slipper stern
                                    it adds about ~158 lbs capacity to the 3" draft, so that helps some.
                                    It would also reduce cavitation. It also moves the CB back some. It
                                    looks like PCB has the seats directly over the original CB with all
                                    other weight (tanks, engine, extra seats) added behind that point. A
                                    30 HP OB weighs ~205 lbs. With the increased boyancy and moving
                                    equipment around to coincide with the original weight distribution I
                                    should be able to install a 30 HP inboard without affecting the draft
                                    too much. Do you know what weight your engine is, the distance from
                                    the bow it is installed, the WL draft and the shaft angle?

                                    Dave
                                  • donschultz8275
                                    ... That seems kinda heavy. I ve hauled a bunch of older 30 s-40 s around and while they re not light, 200+ seems like to much. Perhaps you re including fuel
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 22, 2004
                                      > Hi Jeff,

                                      > A 30 HP OB weighs ~205 lbs. With the increased boyancy and moving
                                      > equipment around to coincide with the original weight distribution I
                                      > should be able to install a 30 HP inboard without affecting the draft
                                      > too much. Do you know what weight your engine is, the distance from
                                      > the bow it is installed, the WL draft and the shaft angle?
                                      >
                                      > Dave


                                      That seems kinda heavy. I've hauled a bunch of older 30's-40's around
                                      and while they're not light, 200+ seems like to much.

                                      Perhaps you're including fuel tanks?
                                    • boatbuilding@goldencoast.com
                                      ... I would guess the Kawaski engine I have weights about 85 lbs. The engine bay starts about 18 feet aft of the bow. Shaft angle is a guess since I mounted
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 23, 2004
                                        > Hi Jeff,
                                        > Thanks for yours and everyone elses comments. I did some
                                        > investigating since then with the plans, books, mags, and
                                        > the hulls program. I found that if I fill in the tails to
                                        > make a slipper stern it adds about ~158 lbs capacity to the
                                        > 3" draft, so that helps some. It would also reduce
                                        > cavitation. It also moves the CB back some. It looks like
                                        > PCB has the seats directly over the original CB with all
                                        > other weight (tanks, engine, extra seats) added behind that
                                        > point. A 30 HP OB weighs ~205 lbs. With the increased
                                        > boyancy and moving
                                        > equipment around to coincide with the original weight
                                        > distribution I should be able to install a 30 HP inboard
                                        > without affecting the draft too much. Do you know what
                                        > weight your engine is, the distance from the bow it is
                                        > installed, the WL draft and the shaft angle?
                                        >

                                        I would guess the Kawaski engine I have weights about 85 lbs.
                                        The engine bay starts about 18 feet aft of the bow. Shaft
                                        angle is a guess since I mounted the engine and adjusted the
                                        shaft assembly to fit but I would think it's arouned 12 degrees.

                                        My draft is per plans at about 3 inches. The entire weight of
                                        the engine and drive assembly is about 120 lbs. or roughly
                                        equal to a 20 HP outboard.

                                        A 30HP inboard would be okay with overpowering the boat, if you
                                        could keep it to 200 lbs. or lower you'd be okay.

                                        Jeff
                                      • Zack Tiger
                                        Howard: I repowered an old (sic cheap ) houseboat I bought by installing an engine/transaxle combo from a VW rabbit diesel on a well between the two aluminum
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Nov 2, 2004
                                          Howard:
                                          I repowered an old (sic 'cheap') houseboat I bought by
                                          installing an engine/transaxle combo from a VW rabbit
                                          diesel on a well between the two aluminum pontoons.
                                          Instead of welding the gears, I had a spool fabricated
                                          (also called a "locker" by the circle track boys) to
                                          tie the two halfshafts together. Instead of
                                          eliminating the front shaft, I kept it and ran it
                                          forward to a mounting plate, running in the original
                                          wheel bearing and hub. this was used to drive
                                          accessories such as a gnerator, bilge pump, etc.
                                          While not a lot of time was spent on this (it was
                                          after all a 'cheapie' exercise, there were some
                                          technical problems unresolved to my satisfaction when
                                          I sold the boat:
                                          1) aux shaft rpm varied with engine speed, which isnt
                                          so good for generating, pumping etc. I think a torgue
                                          converter/clutch off a motorcycle or snowmobile would
                                          help rectify this.
                                          2) the main drive shaft/support/prop drive was iffyin
                                          terms of cv jointboot sealing and longevity. Also, do
                                          to the fact that the strut had to be outboard of the
                                          cv joint for stability, changing the boot was a pain
                                          in the @$%. I tried a split boot that used small bolts
                                          down the side and which could be installed without
                                          ynaking the whole outboard shaft, but they were not
                                          reliable.
                                          3) the low position of the drive shaft in the well box
                                          made for some real challenges to sealing, and early
                                          attempts werenot too waterproof. A modified sterndrive
                                          bellows solved this problem eventually.
                                          4) on the plus side, fuel economy was incredible, and
                                          to push that big fat barge with an outboard (she
                                          originally had a 75hp) would have been prohibitive.
                                          --- donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
                                          > <stephensonhw@a...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > These days, nearly every 4-cyl. auto engine
                                          > (except, I think, the
                                          > > Subaru) is mounted sideways and drive is to the
                                          > front wheels. Does
                                          > > this layout make the engines harder to adapt to
                                          > marine use than the
                                          > > old way, where the engine is fore-and-aft, with a
                                          > gearbox behind it
                                          > > and a propellor shaft connecting the gearbox to
                                          > the rear wheels
                                          > > through a differential?
                                          >
                                          > Actually a transverse engine/trans combo from any of
                                          > a large number of
                                          > cars would make for a very compact drive system
                                          > because the trans lays
                                          > alongside rather than behind the engine. This will
                                          > offset the engine
                                          > to one side of the center line of the boat, but the
                                          > weight could be
                                          > offset by the battery, fuel and other interior
                                          > design choices.
                                          >
                                          > An upside is that your junkyard engine choices range
                                          > from tiny Korean
                                          > and Jap vehicles up through a 4.9 liter 200hp+
                                          > Cadillac of the early
                                          > 90's Sedan de Ville. You'll need to take the entire
                                          > wiring harness and
                                          > computer from the car.
                                          >
                                          > It would be necessary to weld the spider gears to
                                          > lock the
                                          > differential in any of these engine/trans combos.
                                          > It's an old stock
                                          > car racing trick to do this in a fully assembled
                                          > diff', catching the
                                          > slag in heavy grease and cleaning it out afterward.
                                          > One of the
                                          > half-shafts with its CV joints would connect to the
                                          > propeller shaft
                                          > and a plate would need to be made to cover the other
                                          > half-shaft port.
                                          >
                                          > Of course there would be much other work to do on
                                          > the exhaust, and the
                                          > cooling circuit. The great majority of engines
                                          > would be gasoline
                                          > (petrol) which is nasty stuff in an inboard boat.
                                          >
                                          > Also your boat would have to haul around the
                                          > automotive transmission
                                          > which will always have more gears and weight than
                                          > necessary, but you
                                          > would avoid the cost and work of adapting a "marine"
                                          > reduction gear to
                                          > match the prop to the automotive engine rpm.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >




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                                        • Harry James
                                          You have any pictures of this conversion? Strikes me as similar to the drive I have seen in the Australian Cat CC29. HJ
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Nov 2, 2004
                                            You have any pictures of this conversion? Strikes me as similar to the
                                            drive I have seen in the Australian Cat CC29.

                                            HJ

                                            Zack Tiger wrote:

                                            >Howard:
                                            >I repowered an old (sic 'cheap') houseboat I bought by
                                            >installing an engine/transaxle combo from a VW rabbit
                                            >diesel on a well between the two aluminum pontoons.
                                            >Instead of welding the gears, I had a spool fabricated
                                            >(also called a "locker" by the circle track boys) to
                                            >tie the two halfshafts together. Instead of
                                            >eliminating the front shaft, I kept it and ran it
                                            >forward to a mounting plate, running in the original
                                            >wheel bearing and hub. this was used to drive
                                            >accessories such as a gnerator, bilge pump, etc.
                                            >While not a lot of time was spent on this (it was
                                            >after all a 'cheapie' exercise, there were some
                                            >technical problems unresolved to my satisfaction when
                                            >I sold the boat:
                                            >1) aux shaft rpm varied with engine speed, which isnt
                                            >so good for generating, pumping etc. I think a torgue
                                            >converter/clutch off a motorcycle or snowmobile would
                                            >help rectify this.
                                            >2) the main drive shaft/support/prop drive was iffyin
                                            >terms of cv jointboot sealing and longevity. Also, do
                                            >to the fact that the strut had to be outboard of the
                                            >cv joint for stability, changing the boot was a pain
                                            >in the @$%. I tried a split boot that used small bolts
                                            >down the side and which could be installed without
                                            >ynaking the whole outboard shaft, but they were not
                                            >reliable.
                                            >3) the low position of the drive shaft in the well box
                                            >made for some real challenges to sealing, and early
                                            >attempts werenot too waterproof. A modified sterndrive
                                            >bellows solved this problem eventually.
                                            >4) on the plus side, fuel economy was incredible, and
                                            >to push that big fat barge with an outboard (she
                                            >originally had a 75hp) would have been prohibitive.
                                            >--- donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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