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Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!

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  • Nels
    ... Jason, You are just going to have to treat your keel better if you want it to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense! First we need more details. What
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
      wrote:
      >> Seriously, suggestions would be appreciated as sailing in circles
      > wasn't what i had in mind when i started this project.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Jason
      > PS should have stuck some leeboards on her.

      Jason,

      You are just going to have to treat your keel better if you want it
      to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense!

      First we need more details. What is it that is warped? How wet is the
      plywood? Is the lead shot epoxy area warped at all? I am wondering if
      you can lay it flat and put weight on the warped area forcing it to
      straighten? Otherwise the forward end of the deadwood will likely
      have to be replaced, which means a scarf of some kind. What kind of
      shoe did you install? You might have to put another layer of plywood
      on and then you will end up with a wider, but stronger keel.

      If it is only a small amount - ignore it. You can tune it out with
      the mizzen. Oooops just realized you don't have a mizzen:-(

      Move over and share the moaning chair and hand me a brew while I
      contemplate. Nels
    • Howard Stephenson
      I warped a new daggerboard once by leaving it out in the sun before I d properly sealed the timber. I fixed it by just flipping it over and keeping an eye on
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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        I warped a new daggerboard once by leaving it out in the sun before
        I'd properly sealed the timber. I fixed it by just flipping it over
        and keeping an eye on it. So you might correct the problem by doing
        what you did to the other side of the board, including reproducig the
        humidity, but not necessarily the hurricane. Get some epoxy, paint or
        varnish on it as soon as it's symmetrical again.

        Howard


        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
        > wrote:
        > >> Seriously, suggestions would be appreciated as sailing in
        circles
        > > wasn't what i had in mind when i started this project.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > Jason
      • Jason Stancil
        ... it to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense! ******************** Don t tempt me too put a chainsaw to this evil 450lbs monster and make a leeboard
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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          >
          > You are just going to have to treat your keel better if you want
          it to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense!
          ********************
          Don't tempt me too put a chainsaw to this evil 450lbs monster and
          make a leeboard out of it

          > First we need more details. What is it that is warped? How wet is
          the plywood? Is the lead shot epoxy area warped at all? I am
          wondering if you can lay it flat and put weight on the warped area
          forcing it to straighten?
          **********************
          The twist starts forward of the casting and stops where it becomes
          all timber towards the forward end. Does that make sense? It's
          laying flat now, almost lost my fingers flipping it off the wall.

          > what kind of shoe did you install?
          glass, i never got to the sides so that's how the water soaked in,
          it's dry now.

          > If it is only a small amount - ignore it. You can tune it out with
          > the mizzen. Oooops just realized you don't have a mizzen:-(
          ************************
          GRRRRRRRRR ;)


          To further clarify my stupidity: When i installed the second
          sheathing half to the deadwood i gave the ply a little....ok a
          heafty tug to line up the two halves. At the time no problem. I
          guess my submersible basement acted as a monster steam bender after
          the epoxy cured......it held it's shape for a week before it tweaked.

          Jason
        • Nels
          ... tweaked. ... Ahhhhh so you tortured your poor keel as well. And I bet you put in lots of fastners so it would hold nice and tight too eh? I would go back
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
            wrote:
            > To further clarify my stupidity: When i installed the second
            > sheathing half to the deadwood i gave the ply a little....ok a
            > heafty tug to line up the two halves. At the time no problem. I
            > guess my submersible basement acted as a monster steam bender after
            > the epoxy cured......it held it's shape for a week before it
            tweaked.
            >
            > Jason

            Ahhhhh so you tortured your poor keel as well. And I bet you put in
            lots of fastners so it would hold nice and tight too eh?

            I would go back to plan "A" and force it into place on the keel
            batten. The keel is so shallow up that far forward you won't even
            notice once you've had a couple cool ones:-)

            All the best Jason. Admire your tenacity and determination.

            Send pictures once you are finished:-)

            Cheers, Nels
          • Jason Stancil
            Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend winching, prying, cursing,
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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              Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
              batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend
              winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in place
              but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
              straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and won't
              bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow directions,
              blah, blah blah!

              Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.

              Jason the lateral resistance challanged
            • dbaldnz
              Jason, your first post said the twist was forward of the lead, in the shallower deadwood area. So your lead must be straight. (actually, a poured lead keel is
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                Jason, your first post said the twist was forward of the lead, in
                the shallower deadwood area. So your lead must be straight.
                (actually, a poured lead keel is probably more likely to 'creep'
                than your composite one.)
                If it's just the deadwood, can't you pull the screws, and plane and
                fill the deadwood? Or cut the front twisted piece off, fix the lead
                keel in place, and glue strips of timber in place to make up the
                original profile?
                DonB

                -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
                > batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a
                girlfriend
                > winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in
                place
                > but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
                > straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and
                won't
                > bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow
                directions,
                > blah, blah blah!
                >
                > Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.
                >
                > Jason the lateral resistance challanged
              • Lincoln Ross
                If the epoxy/lead part is warped, you can get the epoxy to soften if you heat it up, probably someplace in the vicinity of 150 to 200 degrees F.
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                  If the epoxy/lead part is warped, you can get the epoxy to soften if you
                  heat it up, probably someplace in the vicinity of 150 to 200 degrees F.

                  >Jason Stancil wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
                  >batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend
                  >winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in place
                  >but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
                  >straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and won't
                  >bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow directions,
                  >blah, blah blah!
                  >
                  >Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.
                  >
                  >Jason the lateral resistance challanged
                  >
                • Bruce Hallman
                  Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more work, but not
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                    Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                    crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                    lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                    work, but not a disaster either.
                  • Roger Derby
                    Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid dynamics, I sure would like to have you sail it before and after the fix. When the boat heels, it
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                      Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid dynamics, I sure
                      would like to have you sail it before and after the fix.

                      When the boat heels, it becomes quite asymmetrical. Some boats can be
                      steered by heel and fore-and-aft trim. You might not notice the difference,
                      particularly if your paint scheme made it unobtrusive on the trailer.

                      Roger
                      derbyrm@...
                      http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>


                      >
                      > Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                      > crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                      > lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                      > work, but not a disaster either.
                    • Rick Bedard
                      Jason, Don s probably on the right track here, but to clarify are you trying to fit the keel assembly as is to the batten or do you want to attached a
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                        Jason,

                        Don's probably on the right track here, but to clarify are you trying to fit the keel assembly "as is" to the batten or do you want to attached a straightened keel assembly to the hull? Either will work, but require different solutions. No sense offering advice on a direction you don't want to persue...

                        Also is the keel kinked forward of the lead in one place, or is it a gentle sweep to one side forward of the lead? And how far out of straight is it?

                        Rick

                        dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote:

                        Jason, your first post said the twist was forward of the lead, in
                        the shallower deadwood area. So your lead must be straight.
                        (actually, a poured lead keel is probably more likely to 'creep'
                        than your composite one.)
                        If it's just the deadwood, can't you pull the screws, and plane and
                        fill the deadwood? Or cut the front twisted piece off, fix the lead
                        keel in place, and glue strips of timber in place to make up the
                        original profile?
                        DonB



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • scott backen
                        Did you ever see a male killer whale? Check out the dorsal fin ... a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody ever told the killer whale
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                          Did you ever see a male killer whale? Check out the dorsal fin ... a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody ever told the killer whale he looked funny! Anyway you cant see the keel in the water.

                          Scott Backen
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Roger Derby
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:37 PM
                          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!


                          Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid dynamics, I sure
                          would like to have you sail it before and after the fix.

                          When the boat heels, it becomes quite asymmetrical. Some boats can be
                          steered by heel and fore-and-aft trim. You might not notice the difference,
                          particularly if your paint scheme made it unobtrusive on the trailer.

                          Roger
                          derbyrm@...
                          http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>


                          >
                          > Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                          > crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                          > lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                          > work, but not a disaster either.




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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jason Stancil
                          Thanks for everyones thoughts an ideas. I couldn t stand this kink in my baby (4.5 off at the bow batten tip). I cut the front 4 foot off the keel today in a
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                            Thanks for everyones thoughts an ideas. I couldn't stand this kink
                            in my baby (4.5" off at the bow batten tip). I cut the front 4 foot
                            off the keel today in a fit of sadistic rage. I feel much better
                            now. I'll redo it next weekend i guess.
                          • dbaldnz
                            He also turns on a dime:} DonB ... a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody ever told the killer whale he looked funny! Anyway you
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                              He also turns on a dime:}
                              DonB
                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "scott backen" <440ford@v...> wrote:
                              > Did you ever see a male killer whale? Check out the dorsal fin ...
                              a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody
                              ever told the killer whale he looked funny! Anyway you cant see the
                              keel in the water.
                              >
                              > Scott Backen
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Roger Derby
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:37 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!
                              >
                              >
                              > Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid
                              dynamics, I sure
                              > would like to have you sail it before and after the fix.
                              >
                              > When the boat heels, it becomes quite asymmetrical. Some boats
                              can be
                              > steered by heel and fore-and-aft trim. You might not notice the
                              difference,
                              > particularly if your paint scheme made it unobtrusive on the
                              trailer.
                              >
                              > Roger
                              > derbyrm@s...
                              > http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...>
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                              > > crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                              > > lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                              > > work, but not a disaster either.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
                              horses
                              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
                              Fred' posts
                              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
                              away
                              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                              01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
                              subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                            • dbaldnz
                              That will be fine Jason. Really the front 4ft of keel is there to protect the bottom, and lets you snug up to rocks, shoals and failing trailer rollers. Good
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                                That will be fine Jason.
                                Really the front 4ft of keel is there to protect the bottom, and
                                lets you snug up to rocks, shoals and failing trailer rollers.
                                Good to hear you knocked it on the chin,
                                DonB
                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks for everyones thoughts an ideas. I couldn't stand this kink
                                > in my baby (4.5" off at the bow batten tip). I cut the front 4
                                foot
                                > off the keel today in a fit of sadistic rage. I feel much better
                                > now. I'll redo it next weekend i guess.
                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... You have heard that all boatbuilders need a moaning chair?
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                                  > I feel much better
                                  > now. I'll redo it next weekend i guess.

                                  You have heard that all boatbuilders
                                  need a moaning chair?
                                • Jason Stancil
                                  ... Heh, two in the boat, one overhead on the porch, one on the ground beside it and even a cooler but i don t usually sit there as it s hard to gain access
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                                    > You have heard that all boatbuilders
                                    > need a moaning chair?

                                    Heh, two in the boat, one overhead on the porch, one on the ground
                                    beside it and even a cooler but i don't usually sit there as it's
                                    hard to gain access with my rump on top. Oh yeah and the milk crates
                                    all over, sometime seats sometimes jack stands/safety devices when
                                    i'm under that monster. Seriously, i sit stare aimlessly at it more
                                    than i build.
                                    Jason
                                  • Robin Badenoch
                                    Hi Jason, If you can heat the epoxy lead it will become soft ? Rob B Oz ... From: Jason Stancil To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 3:51
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                                      Hi Jason,
                                      If you can heat the epoxy lead it will become soft ?

                                      Rob B
                                      Oz
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Jason Stancil
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 3:51 AM
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!



                                      Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
                                      batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend
                                      winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in place
                                      but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
                                      straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and won't
                                      bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow directions,
                                      blah, blah blah!

                                      Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.

                                      Jason the lateral resistance challanged





                                      Bolger rules!!!
                                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                      - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                      - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Bill Kreamer
                                      Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award! ... From: Jason Stancil [mailto:jasonstancil@hotmail.com] Sent:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                        Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                        Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Jason Stancil [mailto:jasonstancil@...]
                                        Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:20
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!




                                        > You have heard that all boatbuilders
                                        > need a moaning chair?

                                        Heh, two in the boat, one overhead on the porch, one on the ground
                                        beside it and even a cooler but i don't usually sit there as it's
                                        hard to gain access with my rump on top. Oh yeah and the milk crates
                                        all over, sometime seats sometimes jack stands/safety devices when
                                        i'm under that monster. Seriously, i sit stare aimlessly at it more
                                        than i build.
                                        Jason





                                        Bolger rules!!!
                                        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                                        Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                      • Jason Stancil
                                        ... I am to displease :) Jason
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
                                          > Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                          > Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                          I am to displease :)
                                          Jason
                                        • John B. Trussell
                                          We all make mistakes. Sometimes we can ignore them, sometimes we can fix them, and sometimes we have to trash our work and start over (which is where small
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                            We all make mistakes. Sometimes we can ignore them, sometimes we can fix them, and sometimes we have to trash our work and start over (which is where small boats are a good thing--the messed up piece is usually small enough to burn easily!). Alas, been there and done all of that.

                                            John T
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Jason Stancil
                                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:56 AM
                                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!



                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
                                            > Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                            > Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                            I am to displease :)
                                            Jason





                                            Bolger rules!!!
                                            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                            - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Rick Bedard
                                            There is a scene in the video One the Ways at Wallace and Sons (or whatever it s called, a great video of guys building a schooner on a budget) Anyway the
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                              There is a scene in the video "One the Ways at Wallace and Sons" (or whatever it's called, a great video of guys building a schooner on a budget) Anyway the interviewer asks a question about what do they do when they encounter a problem. The old boy says something to the effect that they just keep abuildin' until they work their way out of the problem..

                                              Go Jason, go! We're all cheering for you...

                                              Rick

                                              "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...> wrote:
                                              We all make mistakes. Sometimes we can ignore them, sometimes we can fix them, and sometimes we have to trash our work and start over (which is where small boats are a good thing--the messed up piece is usually small enough to burn easily!). Alas, been there and done all of that.

                                              John T
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Jason Stancil
                                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:56 AM
                                              Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!



                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
                                              > Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                              > Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                              I am to displease :)
                                              Jason





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                                              Bolger rules!!!
                                              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                              - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                              - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


                                              Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


                                              ---------------------------------
                                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                                              To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/

                                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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