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Doh! Keel!!!!!!

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  • Jason Stancil
    I get home this evening to look at the keel, tom. was/is going to be the big day. Hurricanes have kept the basement, shall we say moist and since that monster
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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      I get home this evening to look at the keel, tom. was/is going to be
      the big day. Hurricanes have kept the basement, shall we say moist
      and since that monster hunk o' wood and lead was leaning against a
      leaky cinderblock wall with all the weight bearing on one side. The
      freaking thing has warped. A good bit to. Forward of the casting but
      before the deadwood gets solid it twisted off to starboard.

      Has anyone else seen this kind of thing before? Think if i beat it
      onto the batten it will true up?

      Seriously, suggestions would be appreciated as sailing in circles
      wasn't what i had in mind when i started this project.

      Thanks,
      Jason
      PS should have stuck some leeboards on her.
    • Nels
      ... Jason, You are just going to have to treat your keel better if you want it to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense! First we need more details. What
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
        wrote:
        >> Seriously, suggestions would be appreciated as sailing in circles
        > wasn't what i had in mind when i started this project.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Jason
        > PS should have stuck some leeboards on her.

        Jason,

        You are just going to have to treat your keel better if you want it
        to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense!

        First we need more details. What is it that is warped? How wet is the
        plywood? Is the lead shot epoxy area warped at all? I am wondering if
        you can lay it flat and put weight on the warped area forcing it to
        straighten? Otherwise the forward end of the deadwood will likely
        have to be replaced, which means a scarf of some kind. What kind of
        shoe did you install? You might have to put another layer of plywood
        on and then you will end up with a wider, but stronger keel.

        If it is only a small amount - ignore it. You can tune it out with
        the mizzen. Oooops just realized you don't have a mizzen:-(

        Move over and share the moaning chair and hand me a brew while I
        contemplate. Nels
      • Howard Stephenson
        I warped a new daggerboard once by leaving it out in the sun before I d properly sealed the timber. I fixed it by just flipping it over and keeping an eye on
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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          I warped a new daggerboard once by leaving it out in the sun before
          I'd properly sealed the timber. I fixed it by just flipping it over
          and keeping an eye on it. So you might correct the problem by doing
          what you did to the other side of the board, including reproducig the
          humidity, but not necessarily the hurricane. Get some epoxy, paint or
          varnish on it as soon as it's symmetrical again.

          Howard


          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
          > wrote:
          > >> Seriously, suggestions would be appreciated as sailing in
          circles
          > > wasn't what i had in mind when i started this project.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Jason
        • Jason Stancil
          ... it to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense! ******************** Don t tempt me too put a chainsaw to this evil 450lbs monster and make a leeboard
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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            >
            > You are just going to have to treat your keel better if you want
            it to co-operate and stop this leeboard nonsense!
            ********************
            Don't tempt me too put a chainsaw to this evil 450lbs monster and
            make a leeboard out of it

            > First we need more details. What is it that is warped? How wet is
            the plywood? Is the lead shot epoxy area warped at all? I am
            wondering if you can lay it flat and put weight on the warped area
            forcing it to straighten?
            **********************
            The twist starts forward of the casting and stops where it becomes
            all timber towards the forward end. Does that make sense? It's
            laying flat now, almost lost my fingers flipping it off the wall.

            > what kind of shoe did you install?
            glass, i never got to the sides so that's how the water soaked in,
            it's dry now.

            > If it is only a small amount - ignore it. You can tune it out with
            > the mizzen. Oooops just realized you don't have a mizzen:-(
            ************************
            GRRRRRRRRR ;)


            To further clarify my stupidity: When i installed the second
            sheathing half to the deadwood i gave the ply a little....ok a
            heafty tug to line up the two halves. At the time no problem. I
            guess my submersible basement acted as a monster steam bender after
            the epoxy cured......it held it's shape for a week before it tweaked.

            Jason
          • Nels
            ... tweaked. ... Ahhhhh so you tortured your poor keel as well. And I bet you put in lots of fastners so it would hold nice and tight too eh? I would go back
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
              wrote:
              > To further clarify my stupidity: When i installed the second
              > sheathing half to the deadwood i gave the ply a little....ok a
              > heafty tug to line up the two halves. At the time no problem. I
              > guess my submersible basement acted as a monster steam bender after
              > the epoxy cured......it held it's shape for a week before it
              tweaked.
              >
              > Jason

              Ahhhhh so you tortured your poor keel as well. And I bet you put in
              lots of fastners so it would hold nice and tight too eh?

              I would go back to plan "A" and force it into place on the keel
              batten. The keel is so shallow up that far forward you won't even
              notice once you've had a couple cool ones:-)

              All the best Jason. Admire your tenacity and determination.

              Send pictures once you are finished:-)

              Cheers, Nels
            • Jason Stancil
              Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend winching, prying, cursing,
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
                batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend
                winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in place
                but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
                straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and won't
                bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow directions,
                blah, blah blah!

                Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.

                Jason the lateral resistance challanged
              • dbaldnz
                Jason, your first post said the twist was forward of the lead, in the shallower deadwood area. So your lead must be straight. (actually, a poured lead keel is
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                  Jason, your first post said the twist was forward of the lead, in
                  the shallower deadwood area. So your lead must be straight.
                  (actually, a poured lead keel is probably more likely to 'creep'
                  than your composite one.)
                  If it's just the deadwood, can't you pull the screws, and plane and
                  fill the deadwood? Or cut the front twisted piece off, fix the lead
                  keel in place, and glue strips of timber in place to make up the
                  original profile?
                  DonB

                  -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
                  > batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a
                  girlfriend
                  > winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in
                  place
                  > but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
                  > straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and
                  won't
                  > bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow
                  directions,
                  > blah, blah blah!
                  >
                  > Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.
                  >
                  > Jason the lateral resistance challanged
                • Lincoln Ross
                  If the epoxy/lead part is warped, you can get the epoxy to soften if you heat it up, probably someplace in the vicinity of 150 to 200 degrees F.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                    If the epoxy/lead part is warped, you can get the epoxy to soften if you
                    heat it up, probably someplace in the vicinity of 150 to 200 degrees F.

                    >Jason Stancil wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
                    >batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend
                    >winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in place
                    >but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
                    >straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and won't
                    >bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow directions,
                    >blah, blah blah!
                    >
                    >Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.
                    >
                    >Jason the lateral resistance challanged
                    >
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more work, but not
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                      Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                      crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                      lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                      work, but not a disaster either.
                    • Roger Derby
                      Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid dynamics, I sure would like to have you sail it before and after the fix. When the boat heels, it
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                        Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid dynamics, I sure
                        would like to have you sail it before and after the fix.

                        When the boat heels, it becomes quite asymmetrical. Some boats can be
                        steered by heel and fore-and-aft trim. You might not notice the difference,
                        particularly if your paint scheme made it unobtrusive on the trailer.

                        Roger
                        derbyrm@...
                        http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>


                        >
                        > Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                        > crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                        > lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                        > work, but not a disaster either.
                      • Rick Bedard
                        Jason, Don s probably on the right track here, but to clarify are you trying to fit the keel assembly as is to the batten or do you want to attached a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                          Jason,

                          Don's probably on the right track here, but to clarify are you trying to fit the keel assembly "as is" to the batten or do you want to attached a straightened keel assembly to the hull? Either will work, but require different solutions. No sense offering advice on a direction you don't want to persue...

                          Also is the keel kinked forward of the lead in one place, or is it a gentle sweep to one side forward of the lead? And how far out of straight is it?

                          Rick

                          dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote:

                          Jason, your first post said the twist was forward of the lead, in
                          the shallower deadwood area. So your lead must be straight.
                          (actually, a poured lead keel is probably more likely to 'creep'
                          than your composite one.)
                          If it's just the deadwood, can't you pull the screws, and plane and
                          fill the deadwood? Or cut the front twisted piece off, fix the lead
                          keel in place, and glue strips of timber in place to make up the
                          original profile?
                          DonB



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • scott backen
                          Did you ever see a male killer whale? Check out the dorsal fin ... a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody ever told the killer whale
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                            Did you ever see a male killer whale? Check out the dorsal fin ... a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody ever told the killer whale he looked funny! Anyway you cant see the keel in the water.

                            Scott Backen
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Roger Derby
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:37 PM
                            Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!


                            Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid dynamics, I sure
                            would like to have you sail it before and after the fix.

                            When the boat heels, it becomes quite asymmetrical. Some boats can be
                            steered by heel and fore-and-aft trim. You might not notice the difference,
                            particularly if your paint scheme made it unobtrusive on the trailer.

                            Roger
                            derbyrm@...
                            http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>


                            >
                            > Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                            > crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                            > lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                            > work, but not a disaster either.




                            Bolger rules!!!
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                            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
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                            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                          • Jason Stancil
                            Thanks for everyones thoughts an ideas. I couldn t stand this kink in my baby (4.5 off at the bow batten tip). I cut the front 4 foot off the keel today in a
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                              Thanks for everyones thoughts an ideas. I couldn't stand this kink
                              in my baby (4.5" off at the bow batten tip). I cut the front 4 foot
                              off the keel today in a fit of sadistic rage. I feel much better
                              now. I'll redo it next weekend i guess.
                            • dbaldnz
                              He also turns on a dime:} DonB ... a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody ever told the killer whale he looked funny! Anyway you
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                                He also turns on a dime:}
                                DonB
                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "scott backen" <440ford@v...> wrote:
                                > Did you ever see a male killer whale? Check out the dorsal fin ...
                                a big crooked keel, it looks like it works just fine. And nobody
                                ever told the killer whale he looked funny! Anyway you cant see the
                                keel in the water.
                                >
                                > Scott Backen
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Roger Derby
                                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:37 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!
                                >
                                >
                                > Being a person with little faith when it comes to fluid
                                dynamics, I sure
                                > would like to have you sail it before and after the fix.
                                >
                                > When the boat heels, it becomes quite asymmetrical. Some boats
                                can be
                                > steered by heel and fore-and-aft trim. You might not notice the
                                difference,
                                > particularly if your paint scheme made it unobtrusive on the
                                trailer.
                                >
                                > Roger
                                > derbyrm@s...
                                > http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...>
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > > Perhaps the simplest fix is to just fair out the
                                > > crooked spots with epoxy and filler or plywood
                                > > lamate, ending up with a thicker fin. Some more
                                > > work, but not a disaster either.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Bolger rules!!!
                                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
                                horses
                                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
                                Fred' posts
                                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
                                away
                                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
                                subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                              • dbaldnz
                                That will be fine Jason. Really the front 4ft of keel is there to protect the bottom, and lets you snug up to rocks, shoals and failing trailer rollers. Good
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                                  That will be fine Jason.
                                  Really the front 4ft of keel is there to protect the bottom, and
                                  lets you snug up to rocks, shoals and failing trailer rollers.
                                  Good to hear you knocked it on the chin,
                                  DonB
                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for everyones thoughts an ideas. I couldn't stand this kink
                                  > in my baby (4.5" off at the bow batten tip). I cut the front 4
                                  foot
                                  > off the keel today in a fit of sadistic rage. I feel much better
                                  > now. I'll redo it next weekend i guess.
                                • Bruce Hallman
                                  ... You have heard that all boatbuilders need a moaning chair?
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                                    > I feel much better
                                    > now. I'll redo it next weekend i guess.

                                    You have heard that all boatbuilders
                                    need a moaning chair?
                                  • Jason Stancil
                                    ... Heh, two in the boat, one overhead on the porch, one on the ground beside it and even a cooler but i don t usually sit there as it s hard to gain access
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                                      > You have heard that all boatbuilders
                                      > need a moaning chair?

                                      Heh, two in the boat, one overhead on the porch, one on the ground
                                      beside it and even a cooler but i don't usually sit there as it's
                                      hard to gain access with my rump on top. Oh yeah and the milk crates
                                      all over, sometime seats sometimes jack stands/safety devices when
                                      i'm under that monster. Seriously, i sit stare aimlessly at it more
                                      than i build.
                                      Jason
                                    • Robin Badenoch
                                      Hi Jason, If you can heat the epoxy lead it will become soft ? Rob B Oz ... From: Jason Stancil To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 3:51
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                                        Hi Jason,
                                        If you can heat the epoxy lead it will become soft ?

                                        Rob B
                                        Oz
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Jason Stancil
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 3:51 AM
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!



                                        Oh yeah, First major mistake to date. The keel will not fit the
                                        batten properly. Had 2 folks from next door myself and a girlfriend
                                        winching, prying, cursing, and hammering. We got it up and in place
                                        but the twist is evident and totally unacceptible to me. It won't
                                        straighten out (i think) because the ballast is epoxy lead and won't
                                        bend like a lead pour will. Yet another reason to follow directions,
                                        blah, blah blah!

                                        Scratching my head, going to go boating and think about it.

                                        Jason the lateral resistance challanged





                                        Bolger rules!!!
                                        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                                        ADVERTISEMENT





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                                      • Bill Kreamer
                                        Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award! ... From: Jason Stancil [mailto:jasonstancil@hotmail.com] Sent:
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                          Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                          Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Jason Stancil [mailto:jasonstancil@...]
                                          Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:20
                                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!




                                          > You have heard that all boatbuilders
                                          > need a moaning chair?

                                          Heh, two in the boat, one overhead on the porch, one on the ground
                                          beside it and even a cooler but i don't usually sit there as it's
                                          hard to gain access with my rump on top. Oh yeah and the milk crates
                                          all over, sometime seats sometimes jack stands/safety devices when
                                          i'm under that monster. Seriously, i sit stare aimlessly at it more
                                          than i build.
                                          Jason





                                          Bolger rules!!!
                                          - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                          - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                          - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                          - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                                          Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                          - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                        • Jason Stancil
                                          ... I am to displease :) Jason
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
                                            > Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                            > Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                            I am to displease :)
                                            Jason
                                          • John B. Trussell
                                            We all make mistakes. Sometimes we can ignore them, sometimes we can fix them, and sometimes we have to trash our work and start over (which is where small
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                              We all make mistakes. Sometimes we can ignore them, sometimes we can fix them, and sometimes we have to trash our work and start over (which is where small boats are a good thing--the messed up piece is usually small enough to burn easily!). Alas, been there and done all of that.

                                              John T
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Jason Stancil
                                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:56 AM
                                              Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!



                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
                                              > Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                              > Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                              I am to displease :)
                                              Jason





                                              Bolger rules!!!
                                              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                              - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                              - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                                              ADVERTISEMENT





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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Rick Bedard
                                              There is a scene in the video One the Ways at Wallace and Sons (or whatever it s called, a great video of guys building a schooner on a budget) Anyway the
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                                There is a scene in the video "One the Ways at Wallace and Sons" (or whatever it's called, a great video of guys building a schooner on a budget) Anyway the interviewer asks a question about what do they do when they encounter a problem. The old boy says something to the effect that they just keep abuildin' until they work their way out of the problem..

                                                Go Jason, go! We're all cheering for you...

                                                Rick

                                                "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...> wrote:
                                                We all make mistakes. Sometimes we can ignore them, sometimes we can fix them, and sometimes we have to trash our work and start over (which is where small boats are a good thing--the messed up piece is usually small enough to burn easily!). Alas, been there and done all of that.

                                                John T
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Jason Stancil
                                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:56 AM
                                                Subject: [bolger] Re: Doh! Keel!!!!!!



                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
                                                > Jason you definitely take the unofficial Bolger Group
                                                > Builder-Entertainer of the Month Award!

                                                I am to displease :)
                                                Jason





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                                                Bolger rules!!!
                                                - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                                - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                                - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                                - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                                - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


                                                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


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                                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/

                                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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