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Re: [bolger] Re: bolger's dagger boards

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  • Roger Derby
    Having built the case and CB for Chebacco and a replacement daggerboard for the Sunfish, I believe the DB is much, much, easier to build. Maybe I
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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      Having built the case and CB for Chebacco and a replacement daggerboard for
      the Sunfish, I believe the DB is much, much, easier to build. Maybe I
      over-engineered it, but getting the axle/pivot to have the proper clearances
      with the proper bearing material while being perpendicular to both the case
      and the board was a real challenge. So was rigging the tackle, but that's a
      function of the heavier weight.

      It is also much easier to mark a DB so that you can see how much protrudes
      below the bottom of the boat. (Felt tip marker on white paint for the DB.
      I haven't figured out a scheme for the CB unless I mark the lanyard.) (Full
      down for beating if the water is there, 10" for reaching, 3" for running,
      full up for pivoting about the rudder, and YES, don't jibe with the board
      up.)

      From an earlier comment about grounding with a CB, it didn't sound like
      either could be built "less stout." Whatever is needed to stop dead from
      full speed or lift the entire boat with the CB.

      Roger
      derbyrm@...
      http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>
      To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>


      <snip>
      > Never had any trouble with it leaking or jamming. The worst of it was
      > that it wasn't possible to tack or gybe with the board halfway up,
      > because the boom vang would foul the top of the board. (This is not a
      > fault of all daggerboards). It's probably more difficult to rig any
      > kind of lifting tackle than with a pivoting c/b, so a large weighted
      > daggerboard could be a real pain.
      >
      > Compared with a pivoting c/b in a long trunk, daggerboards are: a)
      > more "efficient" i.e. more lift and less drag under most
      > circumstances; and b) probably easier to build. The daggerboard and
      > case need to be strong so they can stand a high-speed grounding. Mine
      > were -- I grounded many times.
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... Is there a picture or drawing of this frame anywhere?
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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        >> 125 lb daggerboard
        > Phil B. designed a special frame to lift the board, after the
        > prototype had been built. Since it's between the two cockpits you
        > don't notice it being in the way. It worked very well.
        >
        > Reed

        Is there a picture or drawing of this frame anywhere?
      • Susan Davis
        ... According to Phil, the A-frame for lifting the daggerboard was designed by Tony Groves, the original builder, not Phil. The fully retracted daggerboard
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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          > > Perhaps someone can comment on the 125 pound daggerboard on the His
          > > and Her Schooner. Ouch!
          >
          > Phil B. designed a special frame to lift the board, after the
          > prototype had been built. Since it's between the two cockpits you
          > don't notice it being in the way. It worked very well.

          According to Phil, the A-frame for lifting the daggerboard was
          designed by Tony Groves, the original builder, not Phil. The fully
          retracted daggerboard stands well in the way of the foresail, so the
          lifting frame must be removable, or at least it doesn't appear in the
          photos of the boat on the Duckworks site.

          The original plans call for only filling the space where the lead goes
          two thirds of the way full, to keep the daggerboard's weight down to
          where it can be moved around without the use of a block and tackle.
          Since it turns out that a block and tackle is needed after all, I plan
          to fill the space all the way, which should increase the lead from 106
          lbs to 159, which should make the boat stiffer.

          --
          Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
        • Jason Stancil
          ... you ... ****************** The dagger board on the PB OSTAR 30 is steel with a 1000lbs of lead. I can only wonder how one lifts that monster without a 10
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
            > >> 125 lb daggerboard
            > > Phil B. designed a special frame to lift the board, after the
            > > prototype had been built. Since it's between the two cockpits
            you
            > > don't notice it being in the way. It worked very well.
            > >
            > > Reed
            >
            > Is there a picture or drawing of this frame anywhere?
            ******************
            The dagger board on the PB OSTAR 30 is steel with a 1000lbs of lead.
            I can only wonder how one lifts that monster without a 10 to one z
            drag or a windlass doing double duty on board.....what is the I60
            using to pull it swingkeel up?
            Jason
          • Paul W. Esterle
            Can t speak to the problems with a PCB daggerboard but I have owned and sailed a 20 Matilda for 15 years. It has a 3/8 steel plate daggerboard with a 300 lb.
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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              Can't speak to the problems with a PCB daggerboard but I have owned and
              sailed a 20' Matilda for 15 years. It has a 3/8" steel plate daggerboard
              with a 300 lb. lead bulb on the bottom. A multipart tackle is mounted on the
              inside of the trunk and the top of the daggerboard. The cable leads to a
              winch mounted on the outside of the rear cabin bulkhead. It has worked very
              well with minimum fuss (except for the time I lost control of the winch and
              it lowered itself all the way to the safety stop). I have grounded with no
              problems, the boat just stopped REAL quick!

              Paul Esterle
              Freelance Boating Writer
              Member, Boating Writers International
              Published in Small Craft Advisor, SAIL,
              Living Aboard, Boatbuilder, Good Old
              Boat, Blue Water Sailing, Nor'easter
              pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
              www.smallcraftadvisor.com
              www.captnpauley.com
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... I bet an A-frame hoist could also solve the handling problem of the ballasted lee boards on Centenial II, making that boat a much more desirable choice
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                > Susan
                > According to Phil, the A-frame for lifting the daggerboard was
                > designed by Tony Groves, the original builder, not Phil.

                I bet an "A-frame hoist" could also solve the handling problem of
                the ballasted lee boards on Centenial II, making that boat a much
                more desirable choice for many. "...the most economical boat
                that could be called fit to keep the sea in bad weather."
                From 11 sheets of 3/8" plywood.
              • Susan Davis
                ... At the moment, nothing -- the I60 is still sitting on Phil and Suzanne s drawing boards. :-) The current draft of the plans calls for a 12 volt truck
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                  > what is the I60 using to pull it swingkeel up?

                  At the moment, nothing -- the I60 is still sitting on Phil and
                  Suzanne's drawing boards. :-)

                  The current draft of the plans calls for a 12 volt truck winch,
                  attached to the swing arm of the keel.

                  --
                  Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                • David Ryan
                  A 9000lbs capacity truck winch should do the trick. Talked to truck supply salesman and he talked me out of the $1200 model saying the $499 model is simply
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                    A 9000lbs capacity truck winch should do the trick. Talked to truck
                    supply salesman and he talked me out of the $1200 model saying the $499
                    model is simply better.

                    He also said he'd give me a deal on two ;-)

                    -David



                    On Friday, October 1, 2004, at 11:50 AM, Susan Davis wrote:

                    >
                    >> what is the I60 using to pull it swingkeel up?
                    >
                    > At the moment, nothing -- the I60 is still sitting on Phil and
                    > Suzanne's drawing boards. :-)
                    >
                    > The current draft of the plans calls for a 12 volt truck winch,
                    > attached to the swing arm of the keel.
                    >
                    > --
                    > Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                    > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                  • Susan Davis
                    ... You re on. :-)
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                      > A 9000lbs capacity truck winch should do the trick. Talked to truck
                      > supply salesman and he talked me out of the $1200 model saying the
                      > $499 model is simply better.
                      >
                      > He also said he'd give me a deal on two ;-)

                      You're on. :-)
                    • Howard Stephenson
                      Alough this may not be quite the situation with your I60, Susan, you can take comfort from something PCB said about a design that he hadn t yet been able to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                        Alough this may not be quite the situation with your I60, Susan, you
                        can take comfort from something PCB said about a design that he
                        hadn't yet been able to complete to the client's satisfaction: "She
                        won't depreciate at her time of life".

                        Howard

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
                        > > what is the I60 using to pull it swingkeel up?
                        >
                        > At the moment, nothing -- the I60 is still sitting on Phil and
                        > Suzanne's drawing boards. :-)
                      • Nels
                        ... Was that before or after STORM PETREL? http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm I don t think that there are many designs around with that capability that can
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                          >> I bet an "A-frame hoist" could also solve the handling problem of
                          > the ballasted lee boards on Centenial II, making that boat a much
                          > more desirable choice for many. "...the most economical boat
                          > that could be called fit to keep the sea in bad weather."
                          > From 11 sheets of 3/8" plywood.

                          Was that before or after STORM PETREL?

                          http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm

                          "I don't think that there are many designs around with that
                          capability that can be built complete from eight 3/8" x 4' x 8'
                          sheets of plywood, and as little else as this one."

                          Also I would really love to see a real life "THREE-METER MULTIHULL"
                          Page 31 BWAOM. Beautiful little boat but for the twin daggerboards.

                          Cheers, Nels
                        • Nels
                          ... and ... daggerboard ... mounted on the ... to a ... worked very ... winch and ... with no ... Hard for me to visualize...Does the daggerboard raise inside
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul W. Esterle" <pesterle@p...>
                            wrote:
                            > Can't speak to the problems with a PCB daggerboard but I have owned
                            and
                            > sailed a 20' Matilda for 15 years. It has a 3/8" steel plate
                            daggerboard
                            > with a 300 lb. lead bulb on the bottom. A multipart tackle is
                            mounted on the
                            > inside of the trunk and the top of the daggerboard. The cable leads
                            to a
                            > winch mounted on the outside of the rear cabin bulkhead. It has
                            worked very
                            > well with minimum fuss (except for the time I lost control of the
                            winch and
                            > it lowered itself all the way to the safety stop). I have grounded
                            with no
                            > problems, the boat just stopped REAL quick!
                            >

                            Hard for me to visualize...Does the daggerboard raise inside the
                            cabin or out? How deep is the board? I thought Matilda's had fixed
                            keels. Any photos?

                            Cheers, Nels
                          • Bruce Hallman
                            ... Storm Petrel #337 is essentially a motor sailer, seaworthy and coastal. Centenenial II #332 was designed to be the minimum seaworthy boat, [in therory at
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                              > Was [Centeniall II] before or after STORM PETREL?

                              Storm Petrel #337 is essentially a motor sailer, seaworthy and coastal.

                              Centenenial II #332 was designed to be the minimum seaworthy
                              boat, [in therory at least], capable to cross the Atlantic
                              in reasonable safety (you wouldn't catch me doing it). Oar auxillary.

                              http://hallman.org/bolger/Centenial2/

                              I bet they were both designed within a month or two of each other.
                            • John B. Trussell
                              I ve had daggerboards on two Windmills and a Scooner. Both boats had boards of unballasted plywood, and raising/lowering them did not take any great effort.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 2, 2004
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                                I've had daggerboards on two Windmills and a Scooner. Both boats had boards of unballasted plywood, and raising/lowering them did not take any great effort.

                                Advantages: the dagger board case is shorter than a centerboard case. It is, therefore, easier to make watertight. The slot is shorter with a dagger board than with a centerboard and a db case is less likely to spit water. Being shorter, a db case takes up less room inside the boat than a cb case. Db cases are often higher (going all the way to the deck line) than cb cases, and this really helps in trying to bail a totally swamped boat (where a cb case will let water in as fast as you bail).

                                Disadvantages: When you run aground, either the boat stops really fast and/or you bust the board or possibly spring the db case. Daggerboards stick up above the deck line when raised by the same amount they stick down below the bottom when lowered. This is not a problem with a schooner, but an unexpected jibe with the db up on a sloop rigged boat can be real exciting. And wet. But the boat is easier to bail out afterwords:>)

                                When I was contemplating His and Hers Schooners, I thought it might be possible to build teeth into the edge of the daggerboard and use a screw jack to raise and lower it. So long as the project is in a fantasizing stage, it seems like a workable solution...

                                John T
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Bruce Hallman
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:40 PM
                                Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: bolger's dagger boards


                                > Was [Centeniall II] before or after STORM PETREL?

                                Storm Petrel #337 is essentially a motor sailer, seaworthy and coastal.

                                Centenenial II #332 was designed to be the minimum seaworthy
                                boat, [in therory at least], capable to cross the Atlantic
                                in reasonable safety (you wouldn't catch me doing it). Oar auxillary.

                                http://hallman.org/bolger/Centenial2/

                                I bet they were both designed within a month or two of each other.


                                Bolger rules!!!
                                - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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