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RE: [bolger] Re: helpful information

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  • Ken
    Frankly we shouldn t have to make/earn a living...This is slave mentality. It is our birthright to have a completely FREE life. Ken ... From: David
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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      Frankly we shouldn't have to make/earn a living...This is slave
      mentality. It is our birthright to have a completely FREE life.

      Ken

      -----Original Message-----
      From: David [mailto:arbordg@...]
      Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:08 AM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bolger] Re: helpful information


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "riverst20" <riverst20@y...> wrote:
      > I am a woodworking enthusiast who would like to make a living
      > through my craft. I have decided that boatbuilding might be a good
      > way to do what I love while earning a decent salary. Could someone
      > please enlighten me if this is a fairly accurate assumption.
      *****************

      Hi,
      I'm very sorry to have to join in the refrain, but Mr. Fountain has
      nailed it. I own a small architectural millwork company, employing
      anywhere from 2 to 6 in the shop. Have been a professional woodworker
      - with a couple of small detours into the bike industry and a graduate
      program in economics - since 1972. When young woodworkers come to me
      with the idea of starting their own business, I am not usually able to
      be very encouraging. Their is a market for residential cabinetry.
      There is a market for commercial casework & millwork. What Bruce
      Fountain says about low pay for high skills applies. There are far too
      many people (skilled and knowledgable or not) who want to work in the
      industry. There is a neverending supply of people starting up in their
      garage. They don't have a clue about their actual costs. They underbid
      everyone as a necessary means of gaining a foothold into the market.
      Having, typically, very little capital or management experience, they
      don't figure out till too late that they're undercharging (and thereby
      driving down the prices for most everyone else). Soon they're gone -
      only to be replaced by the next bloke with a garage and a tablesaw. If
      you can last long enough to develop a good reputation, and a steady
      clientele, you are at the next level of challenges.

      The good thing about owning your own woodworking business is that you
      really only have to work Half-days. And you get to pick WHICH 12
      hours. If you're very good, at this level you'll earn slightly less
      than you would renting the same skills (as an employee) to an
      established shop.

      The same dynamic (squared) applies to custom furniture. It's a lot of
      fun to build. Very satisfying. Nice clients (mostly). We do some, now
      and again, for our architect or interior designer clients. Most
      woodworks would relish the prospect of doing furniture full-time.
      There are some that make a go of it through some combination of good
      design, craftsmanship, marketing savvy, and sheer dumb luck. They're
      few and far between. One of the best in our area decided, after 20+
      years of what passes for success in that arena, to quit doing
      furniture commissions and open a school teaching Fine Woodworking
      skills. He's apparently doing better financially and enjoying life more.

      Now take this description and up the ante again. That would be my
      impression of the market viability of a small business building boats.

      If you're serious about making a living as a woodworker, I'd recommend
      finding a job in a local cabinet shop. A big shop will give you
      narrower, more repetitive tasks - perhaps easier to learn. A small
      shop will give you a wider variety of tasks, sooner - quicker learning
      if you can keep up. Woodworking is a lot of fun. Challenging, and
      satisfying in a lot of ways. All in all, however, I usually recommend
      it as a hobby. If you insist, know you'll have lower pay for more
      skills along with more job volatility than most other trades.

      Hope this rant was helpful. Whatever you decide, good luck!

      Sincerely,
      David Graybeal
      Portland, OR.

      "Never moon a werewolf" - Mike Binder



      Bolger rules!!!
      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
      - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
      - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
      Fax: (978) 282-1349
      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nels
      When young woodworkers come to me ... to ... I didn t see anywhere that he wants to start his own business? What about sub-contracting or building cabinets and
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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        When young woodworkers come to me
        > with the idea of starting their own business, I am not usually able
        to
        > be very encouraging.

        I didn't see anywhere that he wants to start his own business?

        What about sub-contracting or building cabinets and sub-contracting
        to boat builders too?

        Sam Devlin seems to be doing Okay, as well as several yacht builders
        that are often written about in WB. In fact there are a whole list of
        builders and restoration comapanies in WB mag.

        BTW anybody else enjoy the WB article series on building REDWING?

        Cheers, Nels
      • Nels
        ... Welcome to Canada:-) Nels
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <renueden@e...> wrote:
          > Frankly we shouldn't have to make/earn a living...This is slave
          > mentality. It is our birthright to have a completely FREE life.
          >
          > Ken
          >
          >
          Welcome to Canada:-)

          Nels
        • Jeff
          And for the most part we are free to live as we choose! It s the choices we make on the luxuries we think are necessary that enslaves us. Hummm, where s my
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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            And for the most part we are free to live as we choose! It's the choices we make on the luxuries we think are necessary that enslaves us.

            Hummm, where's my power saw, power sander, coffee pot, automobile, ..............

            :>)

            Jeff
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ken
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:17 AM
            Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: helpful information


            Frankly we shouldn't have to make/earn a living...This is slave
            mentality. It is our birthright to have a completely FREE life.

            Ken

            -----Original Message-----
            From: David [mailto:arbordg@...]
            Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:08 AM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [bolger] Re: helpful information


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "riverst20" <riverst20@y...> wrote:
            > I am a woodworking enthusiast who would like to make a living
            > through my craft. I have decided that boatbuilding might be a good
            > way to do what I love while earning a decent salary. Could someone
            > please enlighten me if this is a fairly accurate assumption.
            *****************

            Hi,
            I'm very sorry to have to join in the refrain, but Mr. Fountain has
            nailed it. I own a small architectural millwork company, employing
            anywhere from 2 to 6 in the shop. Have been a professional woodworker
            - with a couple of small detours into the bike industry and a graduate
            program in economics - since 1972. When young woodworkers come to me
            with the idea of starting their own business, I am not usually able to
            be very encouraging. Their is a market for residential cabinetry.
            There is a market for commercial casework & millwork. What Bruce
            Fountain says about low pay for high skills applies. There are far too
            many people (skilled and knowledgable or not) who want to work in the
            industry. There is a neverending supply of people starting up in their
            garage. They don't have a clue about their actual costs. They underbid
            everyone as a necessary means of gaining a foothold into the market.
            Having, typically, very little capital or management experience, they
            don't figure out till too late that they're undercharging (and thereby
            driving down the prices for most everyone else). Soon they're gone -
            only to be replaced by the next bloke with a garage and a tablesaw. If
            you can last long enough to develop a good reputation, and a steady
            clientele, you are at the next level of challenges.

            The good thing about owning your own woodworking business is that you
            really only have to work Half-days. And you get to pick WHICH 12
            hours. If you're very good, at this level you'll earn slightly less
            than you would renting the same skills (as an employee) to an
            established shop.

            The same dynamic (squared) applies to custom furniture. It's a lot of
            fun to build. Very satisfying. Nice clients (mostly). We do some, now
            and again, for our architect or interior designer clients. Most
            woodworks would relish the prospect of doing furniture full-time.
            There are some that make a go of it through some combination of good
            design, craftsmanship, marketing savvy, and sheer dumb luck. They're
            few and far between. One of the best in our area decided, after 20+
            years of what passes for success in that arena, to quit doing
            furniture commissions and open a school teaching Fine Woodworking
            skills. He's apparently doing better financially and enjoying life more.

            Now take this description and up the ante again. That would be my
            impression of the market viability of a small business building boats.

            If you're serious about making a living as a woodworker, I'd recommend
            finding a job in a local cabinet shop. A big shop will give you
            narrower, more repetitive tasks - perhaps easier to learn. A small
            shop will give you a wider variety of tasks, sooner - quicker learning
            if you can keep up. Woodworking is a lot of fun. Challenging, and
            satisfying in a lot of ways. All in all, however, I usually recommend
            it as a hobby. If you insist, know you'll have lower pay for more
            skills along with more job volatility than most other trades.

            Hope this rant was helpful. Whatever you decide, good luck!

            Sincerely,
            David Graybeal
            Portland, OR.

            "Never moon a werewolf" - Mike Binder



            Bolger rules!!!
            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
            Fax: (978) 282-1349
            - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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            D=groups/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1096643378/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*htt
            p://companion.yahoo.com> click here

            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=group
            s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=546167890>


            _____

            Yahoo! Groups Links


            * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/


            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Bolger rules!!!
            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
            - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
            - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
            - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            Yahoo! Groups Links






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bruce Hallman
            Here are a couple photos of a Long Micro which were new to me. http://hallman.org/bolger/486/
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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              Here are a couple photos of a Long Micro
              which were new to me.

              http://hallman.org/bolger/486/
            • David
              ... ********************* Hi Nels, You re right, he didn t specify being in business for himself. However, the dynamics of supply and demand remain the same
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
                >
                > I didn't see anywhere that he wants to start his own business?

                > Sam Devlin seems to be doing Okay, as well as several yacht builders
                > that are often written about in WB. In fact there are a whole list of
                > builders and restoration comapanies in WB mag.
                >
                > Cheers, Nels
                *********************

                Hi Nels,
                You're right, he didn't specify being in business for himself.
                However, the dynamics of supply and demand remain the same for biz
                owner and employee alike. A lot of people (understandably) are
                attracted by the romance of it all - thereby driving down profits and
                wages paid. Financially, it might be better to be a plumber,
                electrician, proctologist, or...? My advice is the same - make it a
                hobby. If, on the other hand, you've touched the sawdust tar-baby (as
                I have) go ahead and give it a shot. Be aware, though, of the
                realities of the industry you're entering. Go into it with eyes open.
                And definitely make sure you have an understanding (and hopefully
                wealthy) wife.

                Cheers,
                David Graybeal
                Arbor Woodworks

                "By all means, marry. If you end up with a good wife, you'll become
                happy. If you end up with a bad one, you'll become a philosopher" -
                Socrates
              • Howard Stephenson
                Your use of the word salary implies you are looking for a job, rather than starting a business. The best place to look for work is obviously with
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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                  Your use of the word "salary" implies you are looking for a job,
                  rather than starting a business.

                  The best place to look for work is obviously with boatbuilders in
                  your area. Just go around knocking on doors; there is very likely a
                  shortage of people with your skills. Don't forget that larger
                  fibreglass, or even aluminium or steel, boats, are usually fitted out
                  with timber furniture.



                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "riverst20" <riverst20@y...> wrote:
                  > I am a woodworking enthusiast who would like to make a living
                  > through my craft. I have decided that boatbuilding might be a good
                  > way to do what I love while earning a decent salary. Could someone
                  > please enlighten me if thisis a fairly accurate assumption.
                • Howard Stephenson
                  Sorry,that last post went without my signature, and few words to the peson I was responding to, saying that it is a good idea to sign posts. Howard
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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                    Sorry,that last post went without my signature, and few words to the
                    peson I was responding to, saying that it is a good idea to sign
                    posts.

                    Howard

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
                    <stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
                    > Your use of the word "salary" implies you are looking for a job,
                    > rather than starting a business.....
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