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Re Lexan mounting

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  • Lincoln Ross
    Someone wanted to use countersunk flat heads. Don t. This does not allow any room to move and negates the point of using oversized holes.
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 25, 2004
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      Someone wanted to use countersunk flat heads. Don't. This does not allow
      any room to move and negates the point of using oversized holes.
    • craig o'donnell
      ... It will also crack the plastic if you overtighten at all. If you must use flathead screws, use plastic or metal cup washers. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 26, 2004
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        >
        >Someone wanted to use countersunk flat heads. Don't. This does not allow
        >any room to move and negates the point of using oversized holes.


        It will also crack the plastic if you overtighten at all.

        If you must use flathead screws, use plastic or metal cup washers.
        --
        Craig O'Donnell
        Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
        <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
        The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
        The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
        Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
        American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
        Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
        _________________________________

        -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
        -- Macintosh kinda guy
        Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
        _________________________________
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... With Acrylic, but not polycarbonate, a.k.a. Lexan . FWIW, I took a scrap piece of Lexan plastic, 1/8 by 1/4 by 18 and I tried to break it with my
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 27, 2004
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          > It will also crack the plastic if you overtighten at all.
          > Craig O'Donnell

          With Acrylic, but not polycarbonate, a.k.a. "Lexan".

          FWIW, I took a 'scrap' piece of Lexan plastic,
          1/8" by 1/4" by 18" and I tried to break it with
          my bare hands by pulling and bending it back
          and forth repeatedly. I simply could not break it.

          I find it very hard to imagine Lexan cracking under
          any real world circumstance.
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... With acrylic, but not polycarbonate, a.k.a. Lexan . FWIW, I took a scrap piece of Lexan plastic, 1/8 by 1/4 by 18 and I tried to break it with my
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 27, 2004
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            > It will also crack the plastic if you overtighten at all.
            > Craig O'Donnell

            With acrylic, but not polycarbonate, a.k.a. "Lexan".

            FWIW, I took a 'scrap' piece of Lexan plastic,
            1/8" by 1/4" by 18" and I tried to break it with
            my bare hands by pulling and bending it back
            and forth repeatedly. I simply could not break it.

            I find it very hard to imagine Lexan cracking under
            any real world circumstance.
          • Jeff
            I believe it s the long term effects of stress. The 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, over years. Lexan is still a fluid in a sense that it s so flexible and
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 27, 2004
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              I believe it's the long term effects of stress. The 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, over years. Lexan is still a fluid in a sense that it's so flexible and shock resistant but it will still separate given enough time under stress. Even on simple curves, manufactures of lexan products will heat mold it to shape so it can possibly last a lifetime rather than say 10 years.

              Jeff

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Bruce Hallman
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 8:47 AM
              Subject: Re: [bolger] Re Lexan mounting


              > It will also crack the plastic if you overtighten at all.
              > Craig O'Donnell

              With Acrylic, but not polycarbonate, a.k.a. "Lexan".

              FWIW, I took a 'scrap' piece of Lexan plastic,
              1/8" by 1/4" by 18" and I tried to break it with
              my bare hands by pulling and bending it back
              and forth repeatedly. I simply could not break it.

              I find it very hard to imagine Lexan cracking under
              any real world circumstance.



              Bolger rules!!!
              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups Links






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Fair enough. I don t see much long term stress in a boat window application. It would need to withstand one rogue wave in a lifetime, if at all.
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 27, 2004
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                > Lexan is still a fluid in a sense that it's so flexible and shock
                >resistant but it will still separate given enough time under stress.
                > Even on simple curves, manufactures of lexan products will heat
                >mold it to shape so it can possibly last a lifetime rather than say 10 years.
                > Jeff

                Fair enough. I don't see much long term stress in a boat
                window application. It would need to withstand one
                rogue wave in a lifetime, if at all.
              • Jeff
                Considering Bolger boats generally have nearly flat windows, I must say that the only real problem with counter sunk screws in Lexan might be the ripple effect
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 27, 2004
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                  Considering Bolger boats generally have nearly flat windows, I must say that the only real problem with counter sunk screws in Lexan might be the ripple effect as the window expands in the sun. Maybe over time the constant movement would loosen the mounting screws, who knows.

                  Jeff

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Bruce Hallman
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:39 AM
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re Lexan mounting


                  > Lexan is still a fluid in a sense that it's so flexible and shock
                  >resistant but it will still separate given enough time under stress.
                  > Even on simple curves, manufactures of lexan products will heat
                  >mold it to shape so it can possibly last a lifetime rather than say 10 years.
                  > Jeff

                  Fair enough. I don't see much long term stress in a boat
                  window application. It would need to withstand one
                  rogue wave in a lifetime, if at all.



                  Bolger rules!!!
                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Yahoo! Groups Links






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • craig o'donnell
                  ... OK Bruce, bring some lexan and replace the piece that cracked on my Birdwatcher. If you overtighten a bugle head or countersunk screw on Lexan you will
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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                    >> It will also crack the plastic if you overtighten at all.
                    >> Craig O'Donnell
                    >
                    >With Acrylic, but not polycarbonate, a.k.a. "Lexan".

                    OK Bruce,

                    bring some lexan and replace the piece that cracked on my Birdwatcher. If
                    you overtighten a "bugle head" or countersunk screw on Lexan you will crack
                    it.

                    I was test fitting pieces and inadvertently tightened one screw too much.
                    Trust me on this one.
                    --
                    Craig O'Donnell
                    Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                    <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
                    The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
                    The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
                    Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
                    American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
                    Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
                    _________________________________

                    -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
                    -- Macintosh kinda guy
                    Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
                    _________________________________
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... Fair enough. I also agree with you that pan head screws in slightly over sized holes are a good idea. Further, I agree that one should not over tighten
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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                      > If you overtighten a "bugle head" or countersunk
                      > screw on Lexan you will crack it.
                      > Trust me on this one.
                      > Craig O'Donnell

                      Fair enough. I also agree with you that pan head
                      screws in slightly over sized holes are a good idea.
                      Further, I agree that one should not over tighten
                      the screws. They should be loose enough to not
                      squeeze out the bead of sealant.

                      The Bolger window design details about the
                      connection of the Lexan, are missing for Micro
                      Navigator, (at least). I was just looking at the
                      drawings for Retriever, which shows a window
                      connection detail, 1/4" material it seems,
                      probably Lexan, flush mounted to the inside
                      of the framing.

                      http://hallman.org/bolger/windowdetail.gif

                      What window mounting detail does Bolger
                      show for Birdwatcher, and for other of his
                      Lexan windowed boats?
                    • craig o'donnell
                      ... None. Drill holes, smush sealant. Without digging out the building plan key I think he recommends pan head screws with slightly oversize holes. The BW
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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                        >What window mounting detail does Bolger
                        >show for Birdwatcher, and for other of his
                        >Lexan windowed boats?

                        None. Drill holes, smush sealant. Without digging out the building plan key
                        I think he recommends pan head screws with slightly oversize holes.

                        The BW windows are flush against what amounts to 1x1 frame pieces which are
                        also the supports for the "deck" lexan and plywood deck pieces amidships,
                        and a slightly thinner backing piece at the bottom.
                        --
                        Craig O'Donnell
                        Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                        <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
                        The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
                        The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
                        Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
                        American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
                        Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
                        _________________________________

                        -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
                        -- Macintosh kinda guy
                        Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
                        _________________________________
                      • seagulloutb
                        Craig, Does Phil Bolger indicate inside or outside placement of the lexan? My sense is that inside finishes off nicer...and I d personally like to do it on my
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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                          Craig,

                          Does Phil Bolger indicate inside or outside placement of the lexan?
                          My sense is that inside finishes off nicer...and I'd personally like
                          to do it on my Chebacco, but...outside holds better in worst
                          conditions. In other words it is (inside placement) blow out the
                          lexan window with wall of water (force reacts against x # of panhead
                          screws-bolts/washers) or (outside placement) flex or fracture of
                          lexan as response to wall of water. Other thoughts?

                          Dick B

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...> wrote:
                          > >What window mounting detail does Bolger
                          > >show for Birdwatcher, and for other of his
                          > >Lexan windowed boats?
                          >
                          > None. Drill holes, smush sealant. Without digging out the building
                          plan key
                          > I think he recommends pan head screws with slightly oversize holes.
                          >
                          > The BW windows are flush against what amounts to 1x1 frame pieces
                          which are
                          > also the supports for the "deck" lexan and plywood deck pieces
                          amidships,
                          > and a slightly thinner backing piece at the bottom.
                          > --
                          > Craig O'Donnell
                          > Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                          > <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
                          > The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
                          > The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
                          > Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese
                          Junks,
                          > American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
                          > Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
                          > _________________________________
                          >
                          > -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
                          > -- Macintosh kinda guy
                          > Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
                          > _________________________________
                        • pvanderwaart
                          ... There is an interesting discussion of window installation and replacement here: http://www.s291.com/public_html/history-referral.htm Look about 60% of the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 30, 2004
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                            > >What window mounting detail does Bolger
                            > >show for Birdwatcher, and for other of his
                            > >Lexan windowed boats?
                            >
                            > None.

                            There is an interesting discussion of window installation and
                            replacement here:
                            http://www.s291.com/public_html/history-referral.htm
                            Look about 60% of the way down the page under the heading
                            Cabin side Windows for S2 Sailboats.

                            Not so different from the Bolger method (or lack of method).

                            Peter
                          • craig o'donnell
                            ... Outside - I don t think a BW would work with inside mounting though someone motivated could redesign the framing to allow trim pieces outside. These would
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 1, 2004
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                              >Craig,
                              >
                              >Does Phil Bolger indicate inside or outside placement of the lexan?
                              >My sense is that inside finishes off nicer...and I'd personally like
                              >to do it on my Chebacco, but...outside holds better in worst
                              >conditions. In other words it is (inside placement) blow out the
                              >lexan window with wall of water (force reacts against x # of panhead
                              >screws-bolts/washers) or (outside placement) flex or fracture of
                              >lexan as response to wall of water. Other thoughts?
                              >
                              >Dick B

                              Outside - I don't think a BW would work with inside mounting though someone
                              motivated could redesign the framing to allow trim pieces outside. These
                              would spread the screw load better.

                              Proa MBULI used outside mounting and it worked fine.

                              Jochems is probably a better example of his current thinking. I haven't
                              seen large BW II plans so I can't say if the upgrade has a different system.
                              --
                              Craig O'Donnell
                              Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                              <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
                              The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
                              The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
                              Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
                              American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
                              Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
                              _________________________________

                              -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
                              -- Macintosh kinda guy
                              Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
                              _________________________________
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