Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[bolger] Re: Lessons in Sharpie Design

Expand Messages
  • Jeff Gilbert
    ... Mark, I guess whats good depends on your taste in boats, your local conditions, & how far advanced you are : 1/ Beginner, 2/ Advanced, or 3/
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 22 4:52 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      > Mark Paquette <paquette@...>
      >asks
      >Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
      >design?

      Mark,
      I guess whats "good" depends on your taste in boats, your local
      conditions, & how far advanced you are :
      1/ Beginner, 2/ Advanced, or 3/ Comprehensively Confused.

      Assuming 1/ a couple of Primers which I found gave a good oveview are
      1/ "Understanding Boat Design" by Ted Brewer (4th Ed)
      2/ "Design your own Yacht" by Ben Smith.
      I'm sure this Group can rake you up a veritable Library!
      Good luck
      Jeff Gilbert.
    • C. O'Donnell
      I will put in the vault nc_sharpie.jpg , a scan of an old picture of what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders yard. No prizes for
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 22 11:16 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        I will put in the vault "nc_sharpie.jpg", a scan of an old picture of
        what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders yard.

        No prizes for fairness on this one, and note that instead of a curve up
        to the stern it's like someone started building a scow and decided in
        the middle to wind up with a sharpie, so they made a pointed bow and a
        rounded stern.

        No reports on how it sailed, maybe well, maybe not <chuckle> but for
        sure not every sharpie was a nice as the ones Chapelle drew.
        Hydrodynamically that scow-rake stern probably didn't make a whole lot
        of difference.
      • David Beede
        Craig, Where do you dig up all these ancient pics? I find it almost more inspiring to see questionable examples of old boats as I do the beautiful ones. Wonder
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 23 5:38 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Craig,
          Where do you dig up all these ancient pics? I find it almost more
          inspiring to see questionable examples of old boats as I do the
          beautiful ones. Wonder what that says about my building? I'm not going
          there.....
          Thanks for the pic.
          David

          "C. O'Donnell" wrote:

          >
          >
          > I will put in the vault "nc_sharpie.jpg", a scan of an old picture of
          > what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders yard.
          >
          > No prizes for fairness on this one, and note that instead of a curve up
          > to the stern it's like someone started building a scow and decided in
          > the middle to wind up with a sharpie, so they made a pointed bow and a
          > rounded stern.
          >
          > No reports on how it sailed, maybe well, maybe not <chuckle> but for
          > sure not every sharpie was a nice as the ones Chapelle drew.
          > Hydrodynamically that scow-rake stern probably didn't make a whole lot
          > of difference.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
          > www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

          --

          SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
          Feed someone.
          http://www.thehungersite.com/
          Save a little rain forest.
          http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296

          Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
          http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
          http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
          Here's my latest boat:
          http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
          http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
          Quasi esoteric musical instruments
          http://unicornstrings.com
        • Mark Paquette
          Nice old pic... Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat design? I am thinking of playing around with designing some very simples
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 23 5:22 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Nice old pic...
            Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
            design?
            I am thinking of playing around with designing some very simples boats
            for myself and having some of the basics in design in front of me might
            help.

            Mark in MN



            "c. o'donnell" <dadadat-@...> wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3880
            >
            > I will put in the vault "nc_sharpie.jpg", a scan of an old picture of
            > what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders
            yard.
          • P. Vanderwaart
            Boat design books: How to design a boat by John Teale. This is about the simplest. It should be fine for simple boats up to about 20 . My only real complaint
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 25 1:13 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Boat design books:

              "How to design a boat" by John Teale. This is about the simplest. It should
              be fine for simple boats up to about 20'. My only real complaint is that it
              is so brief that you really have to fill in with info from other places
              here and there. I would say it is a re-write of his earlier book which is
              more indiosycratic and perhaps more fun. They cover the same material, more
              or less.

              "Principles of Yacht Design" by Lars larsson and Rolf E. Eliasson. Much
              more complicated. More focused on larger high-performance yachts. They give
              quite an overview on the advanced math but probably not quite enough for it
              to really be considered a complete text.

              I would say that Teale is at the high school senior level, Larsson is at
              the College senior level, maybe even a step up.

              Peter
            • Wmrpage@aol.com
              In a message dated 3/23/00 7:23:44 PM Central Standard Time, paquette@duluth.com writes:
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 26 6:29 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 3/23/00 7:23:44 PM Central Standard Time,
                paquette@... writes:

                << Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
                design? >>

                All of Bolger's books, IMHO, make for very enlightening reading. His
                excellent prose style can lull one into reading with pleasure and not quite
                grasping all of the implications of his sometimes very condensed opinions. I
                find that most of his stuff bears periodic re-reading - at least for me - I
                often take note of a detail on re-reading that simply passed under the radar
                on first or even second reading.

                Jeff Gilbert has has "a Hons degree with a triple major in Maths, Applied
                Maths & Stats." (He also claims to have a Ph.D. in Miscalculation). In a
                prior exchange, he suggested that I might profit by a design course offered
                by "McNaughton's Boatyard, Eastport". I don't know if this a mail-order, or
                online class or whether Jeff is taking it.

                As far as primers on naval architecture go, I don't have any recommendations
                to make and I'm not sure one isn't pretty much similar to the other. I have
                a copy of "Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships" by Cyrus Hamlin, N.A.,
                Cornell Maritime Press, 1989, which covers the basics at a pretty high level
                of generality. If you get hooked on thinking about boat design you will want
                more than a couple of reference books - I'd suggest starting with the Duluth
                public library and the inter-library loan program before parting with hard
                cash.

                A book I like that is out of print, but in circulation in the Hennepin
                County Library system, Weston Farmer's "From The (or My) Old Boathouse".
                This is not a design primer, but more-or-less the memoirs of a
                semi-self-taught designer from an era before professionalization of boat
                design. He gives some interesting and entertaining accounts of tackling
                design problems with very rudimentary tools by modern standards, but with
                considerable ingenuity. If I run across a copy in a used book store, I''ll
                snap it up in a minute to have his observations regarding crude tests with
                models handy for reference. He eventually ended up residing in Wayzata, MN.

                Jim Michalak has a number of very interesting articles on boat design posted
                on the web. The URL: http://www.apci.net?~michalak/#index will get you
                started, I think. I recently read his articles on water ballast with
                considerable interest. His material seems to be spread about on at least
                three sites on the internet and I find navigating a bit frustrating at times,
                but I'm a certifiable computer incompetent.

                Finally, I would suggest that a computer boat design program can be a lot of
                fun. These allow you to play with design parameters without the need of a
                drafting table, splines, etc. It also performs a lot of mathematical
                calculations quickly and automatically, which permits one to experiment and
                to make many more "mistakes" in a much shorter period of time.

                I have an edition of "PLYBOATS" by Ray Clark - its available on the internet
                and regularly advertised in "Wooden Boat". I mail-ordered it on a floppy
                disk and it came with a pretty good (print) users' manual, at a price of $50,
                if recollection serves. The constraints that it puts on shapes probably make
                it unacceptable to any serious designer or would-be designer, but the same
                constraints make it easy and quick for a diletante to "design" simple boats.
                It automatically calculates and displays displacement, righting moment a
                various degrees of heel, prismatic coefficients and probably some other
                quantities that elude immediate recall. I can only give it a qualified
                endorsement however as my computer goes into total brain-lock when I ask it
                to print the panel expansions. This is a disappointment, as I hoped to use
                this functions to build small models of "Bolgeresque" boats. Although Ray
                Clark wasn't able to diagnose my particular problem, evidently most other
                purchasers can use this function with their ink-jet printers with
                satisfaction.

                There are at least a few free-ware programs on the net. Our Moderator, Greg
                Carlson, has one available on his web site. Milchalak's site somewhere
                offers a trial down load of "PLYBOATS", and another program called "HULLFORM"
                or something like that, which may or may not be Carlson's program. In the
                Bolger e-group there appears to be a file for a program which may or may not
                be the same or a similar program. I haven't the courage to try either. I
                successfully down-loaded a program offered by a French man called "Carene50"
                or some such, but haven't really tried to figure out how to use it. I offer a
                word of caution - if you don't know what you are doing in down-loading
                programs off the internet (and I most assuredly do not know what I am doing)
                it is possible to inadvertantly do something or somethings which will
                thoroughly annoy the internet-saavy poster whose generosity you wish to avail
                yourself of.

                Ciao for niao;

                Bill in Eden Prairie, MN
              • G Carlson
                A copy of my hull design program is indeed in the egroup vault, and on my website www.carlsondesign.com. Robert Laine s - also free - Carene programs are
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 26 9:22 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  A copy of my hull design program is indeed in the egroup vault, and on my
                  website www.carlsondesign.com. Robert Laine's - also free - Carene
                  programs are available or linked from my site.

                  Hullform is a different commercial program; I believe the free version is
                  either stripped down or a previous release. It's seem to be nice software,
                  seeming to handle both hard-chined and round hulls, but appears more
                  complex.

                  I also have Plyboats, and my ownd program is just another way to skin that cat.

                  Regards,
                  Gregg Carlson


                  >There are at least a few free-ware programs on the net. Our Moderator, Greg
                  >Carlson, has one available on his web site. Milchalak's site somewhere
                  >offers a trial down load of "PLYBOATS", and another program called "HULLFORM"
                  >or something like that, which may or may not be Carlson's program. In the
                  >Bolger e-group there appears to be a file for a program which may or may not
                  >be the same or a similar program. I haven't the courage to try either. I
                  >successfully down-loaded a program offered by a French man called "Carene50"
                  >or some such, but haven't really tried to figure out how to use it. I offer a
                  >word of caution - if you don't know what you are doing in down-loading
                  >programs off the internet (and I most assuredly do not know what I am doing)
                  >it is possible to inadvertantly do something or somethings which will
                  >thoroughly annoy the internet-saavy poster whose generosity you wish to avail
                  >yourself of.
                  >
                  >Ciao for niao;
                  >Bill in Eden Prairie, MN
                • Lincoln Ross
                  If you want many of Michalak s boat ideas in one place, you can find them in his book. Well worth it. The essay on missile baloney (actually kinda relevant)
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 26 10:23 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If you want many of Michalak's boat ideas in one place, you can find
                    them in his book. Well worth it. The essay on missile baloney (actually
                    kinda relevant) is especially entertaining, tho I think that's on the
                    site, too.

                    wmrpag-@... wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3943
                    >snip
                    > Jim Michalak has a number of very interesting articles on boat design
                    posted
                    > on the web. The URL: http://www.apci.net?~michalak/#index will get
                    you
                    > started, I think. snip three sites on the internet and I find
                    navigating a bit frustrating at times,
                    snip
                  • Michael Surface
                    G Carlson program is worth geting your hands on. I have try the others he mentions and they are ok but are not real easy to use (this from a user of various
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 27 7:29 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      G Carlson program is worth geting your hands on. I have try the others he
                      mentions and they are ok but are not real easy to use (this from a user of
                      various 3d and solid modeling programs). I have had hours of fun working
                      with Carlson program. GET IT, USE IT, LOVE IT is all I can say.

                      ______________________________________________________
                    • C. O'Donnell
                      ... boat design? Design is a dodgy issue. Workboats typically weren t designed but of course yachts were. So things relative to workboats and sharpies are
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 28 9:59 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "mark paquette" <paquett-@...> wrote:


                        > Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on
                        boat design?


                        "Design" is a dodgy issue. Workboats typically weren't "designed" but
                        of course yachts were. So things relative to workboats and sharpies are
                        often more about "how to build" or describing how they were built, than
                        they are how they were designed".

                        Thoughts: anything by Commodore Munroe or Vincent Gilpin. Anything by
                        Chapelle ("Yacht Designing and Planning") -- I suspect there must be
                        magazine articles on "sharpie yachts" by Chapelle which have never made
                        it into book form. These would likely be from the 30s and 40s, 50's
                        maybe? Anything by Bolger, of course.

                        Sucher's SIMPLIFIED BOATBUILDING/FLAT-BOTTOMED BOAT ...

                        Reuel Parker's THE SHARPIE BOOK does a good job surveying all the
                        sharpie-yachters from Clapham and Munroe on down. We could use a new
                        book on Clapham and Munroe, though.

                        Look on the Cheap Pages. "Short Boats" page has old articles on skiffs
                        and scows, and you can pretty much blow up the sizes of these small
                        boats as the techniques are much the same. Especially for scows. Also
                        many links there and on other Cheap Pages.

                        I've got a link to W.P. Stephens, "Canoe and Boat Building for
                        Amateurs", which discusses something of design ca 1890-1900.

                        I don't mean to slight John Gardner, though he's a bit too New England
                        for my tastes. "Wooden Boats to Build and Use" has a couple interesting
                        essays as does the other one (the one that's not "The Dory Book").

                        I've got about 6 ca 1880-1920 e-books more or less edited, I really
                        should get them online. Sigh.
                      • John Kohnen
                        Westy Farmer s FROM MY OLD BOAT SHOP is back in print! His heirs have issued a new edition with some additional articles added (IIRC). Look for the ads in MAIB
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 29 1:10 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Westy Farmer's FROM MY OLD BOAT SHOP is back in print! His heirs have
                          issued a new edition with some additional articles added (IIRC). Look for
                          the ads in MAIB and the back of WoodenBoat. Unfortunately it's not cheap.

                          On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:29:29 EST, Bill in Eden Prairie, MN wrote:
                          > In a message dated 3/23/00 7:23:44 PM Central Standard Time,
                          > paquette@... writes:
                          >
                          > << Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
                          > design? >>
                          > ...
                          > A book I like that is out of print, but in circulation in the Hennepin
                          > County Library system, Weston Farmer's "From The (or My) Old Boathouse".
                          > This is not a design primer, but more-or-less the memoirs of a
                          > semi-self-taught designer from an era before professionalization of boat
                          > design....


                          --
                          John <jkohnen@...>
                          http://www.cyber-dyne.com/~jkohnen/nautical.html
                          When men come to love sea-life, they are not fit to live on land.
                          <Samuel Johnson>
                        • Wmrpage@aol.com
                          In a message dated 3/29/00 1:36:09 PM Central Standard Time, jkohnen@efn.org writes:
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 1, 2000
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 3/29/00 1:36:09 PM Central Standard Time, jkohnen@...
                            writes:

                            << Westy Farmer's FROM MY OLD BOAT SHOP is back in print! >>

                            Thanks for the news! I noticed the Weston Farmer add in the 4/1/00 MAIB, but
                            no mention there that the book is back in print. I'll give a call on Monday
                            and hope you're not just pulling an "April Fool's!" on me. As to price - some
                            months ago I received a quote via Amazon.com for $68 for a used copy, which
                            seemed a bit steep to me.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.