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seaworthy bolger ply designs.

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  • Jason Stancil
    I ve been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a boat but would say in a
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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      I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of
      small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
      boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
      confidence.

      "seaworthy"......you decide what that means

      AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
      AS29......maybe, maybe not
      seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
      The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
      Centenial II.......not me
      Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
      Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i didn't
      ask......must be some crazies out there
      Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
      Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
      romp.......well proven
      yonder.....better than romp
      Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
      etc.

      What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
      never even heard off.

      jason
    • pvanderwaart
      ... 39 centerboard yawl the 30 ply, leeboard cruiser for the Red Sea? Avara?
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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        > "seaworthy"......you decide what that means

        39' centerboard yawl
        the 30' ply, leeboard cruiser for the Red Sea? Avara?
      • Phil S.
        Hi Jason I am not sure if you are looking for a sail or power only, but i just recieved the packet from Phil and Friends about Tahiti, Other than some design
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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          Hi Jason I am not sure if you are looking for a sail or power only, but i just recieved the
          packet from Phil and Friends about Tahiti, Other than some design issues I am not fond of
          it looks to be a really sea worthy and excelent design.
          Regards
          phil
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... PCB: I define seaworthiness as the ability to keep the sea in all weathers in reasonable safety. Design and construction are only part of it. Quality of
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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            > > "seaworthy"......you decide what that means
            PCB: "I define seaworthiness as the ability to keep the sea in all
            weathers in reasonable safety. Design and construction are only part
            of it.
            Quality of handling and gear are, if anything, more important"

            Other seaworthy Bolger boats,

            _Col. H.G. Hasler_, 20'0" LOA 8'0" breadth, welded steel construction,
            "Minimum World Crusing Single-hander"

            Also, _Fiji_ 34'7" LWL 11'0" breadth,
            "go-anywhere yawl"

            Both these boats have Chinese Cat Yawl rigs.

            I also recall a Bolger boat called "passagemaker" but I can't
            find any notes on it, anybody else remember this?
          • Robert Gainer
            Phil, When you look at a design, what is it that you use as a gauge of seaworthiness? Can you point to a feature or trait and say that is or is not desirable.
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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              Phil,
              When you look at a design, what is it that you use as a gauge of
              seaworthiness? Can you point to a feature or trait and say that is or is not
              desirable. Or is it the ´┐Żoverall´┐Ż look of the boat and rig that tells you.
              For example, do you have a spreadsheet and assign points either positive or
              negative for a list of characteristics in the design, construction and rig.
              Is this a gut reaction, or have you put numbers to any of this based on
              comparing other boats that have a track record, good or bad.
              Thanks,
              Robert Gainer



              >From: "Phil S." <newbarndesign@...>
              >Reply-To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              >To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [bolger] Re: seaworthy bolger ply designs.
              >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:17:15 -0000
              >
              >Hi Jason I am not sure if you are looking for a sail or power only, but i
              >just recieved the
              >packet from Phil and Friends about Tahiti, Other than some design issues I
              >am not fond of
              >it looks to be a really sea worthy and excelent design.
              >Regards
              >phil
              >
            • pvanderwaart
              ... There is, of course, no unanimity of opinon on this complex question. Just in the last week I ve read of Phil Bolger and Tom MacNaughton saying that they
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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                > When you look at a design, what is it that you use as a gauge of
                > seaworthiness?

                There is, of course, no unanimity of opinon on this complex
                question. Just in the last week I've read of Phil Bolger and Tom
                MacNaughton saying that they thought the currently fashionable ideas
                of what makes a cruising boat to be inadequate. I suppose them mean
                boats of the Catalina/Hunter/Beneteau type, though neither was
                specific. And they have very different ideas about what makes a good
                boat. I've seen each of them dismiss features that the other likes.

                What I think in terms of is

                1) Is it going to keep the water out? General strength of
                construction, care with respect to hatches and vents.

                2) Is it going to stay right side up? Range of stability.

                3) Can it handle heavy weather? This means power to carry sail so
                that it can get upwind in all but the strongest storms.

                4) Does it take care of the crew? A deck you can get around on. A
                cockpit with protection. A safe interior. Can the crew get into
                position and muster the strength to handle the rig?

                A boat should be seaworthy in these terms for coastal cruising. If
                you want ocean crossing, you have to add a certain load carrying
                capacity for supplies.

                These are just the first-order terms. There are second-order terms
                of great importance such as a comfortable motion at sea. And
                equipment is very important. Storm sails, reefing gear, anchors, etc.

                Peter
              • Bruce Hallman
                ... On deck? This is where Bolger & Friend draw upon the idea of H.G. Blondie Hasler & his trans-Atlantic racer Jester which is(was) designed to
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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                  pvanderwaart wrote:
                  > 4) Does it take care of the crew? A deck you can get around on. A
                  > cockpit with protection. A safe interior. Can the crew get into
                  > position and muster the strength to handle the rig?

                  "On deck?" <grin>

                  This is where Bolger & Friend draw upon the idea
                  of H.G. 'Blondie' Hasler & his trans-Atlantic racer 'Jester'
                  which is(was) designed to be handled entirely from inside the
                  cabin, with no reason whatever to go 'on deck' when it is nasty.

                  Several of Bolger's recent designs use this philosophy,
                  and the Chinese Gaffer rig's main purpose is for this
                  reason too.
                • pseudospark
                  I like your description of Storm Petrel - made to take a beating, but not cruise In his commentary on Storm Petrel, PCB wrote: I define seaworthiness as
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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                    I like your description of "Storm Petrel" - "made to take a beating,
                    but not cruise"

                    In his commentary on Storm Petrel, PCB wrote:

                    "I define seaworthiness as the ability to keep the sea in all
                    weathers in reasonable safety. Design and construction are only part
                    of it. Quality of handling and gear are, if anything, more important.

                    "I admit to skepticism about the possibility of a foolproof boat, and
                    when politicians and bureaucrats set out to prohibit the other kind,
                    the first thing that happens is that they make boats a lot more
                    expensive without making them much safer. The second thing is that
                    when making boats more expensive doesn't get results, they start
                    restricting their use and end up by locking everybody in padded cells
                    where they'll be quite safe.

                    "However that may be, what the designer can do about seaworthiness is
                    to lay out the boat in such a way that it can roll over and over, be
                    totally submerged and come through rightside up without a disastrous
                    amount of water inside. He can also do a good deal to help the
                    builder make it strong enough to stand these things.

                    "The Storm Petrel is supposed to be the absolute minimum seaworthy
                    boat."

                    Steve H
                  • daveydimwit
                    Most certainly on deck Because what can go wrong will go wrong and if you attempt a major open sea crossing you can count on being on deck in bad weather.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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                      Most certainly "on deck"
                      Because what can go wrong will go wrong and if you attempt a major
                      open sea crossing you can count on being on deck in bad weather.

                      And the first time your boat falls off a big wave and you are out on
                      the bow, you will know what seaworthy is.

                      I recall as clear as day the first time I stood there cresting on one
                      wave and looking 20 feet down into the trough I was petrified and
                      when we ddrove down and only about a quart of water came on deck, I
                      was blown away. Sure did wonders for my confidence.

                      I recall bright sunny days watching 3 or 4 meter waves (they are
                      square in the Tasmin) coming at us from the starboard side day after
                      day. We all kept thinking of what it would be like if one hit us but
                      every one slipped under the boat. Still, after a week, someone would
                      still call out every once in a while - "holy s___, look at that one!)
                      Aand we would watch it approach and feel it slip under us.

                      I don't thing I can write down what seaworthy is but I know what it
                      feels like when you have a seaworthy boat under you.

                      If you have not been out there, you have to rely on people like
                      Bolger. For those of us who have, I think we each have our own
                      definition based on our experiences.


                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                      > pvanderwaart wrote:
                      > > 4) Does it take care of the crew? A deck you can get around on. A
                      > > cockpit with protection. A safe interior. Can the crew get into
                      > > position and muster the strength to handle the rig?
                      >
                      > "On deck?" <grin>
                      >
                      > This is where Bolger & Friend draw upon the idea
                      > of H.G. 'Blondie' Hasler & his trans-Atlantic racer 'Jester'
                      > which is(was) designed to be handled entirely from inside the
                      > cabin, with no reason whatever to go 'on deck' when it is nasty.
                      >
                      > Several of Bolger's recent designs use this philosophy,
                      > and the Chinese Gaffer rig's main purpose is for this
                      > reason too.
                    • Lewis E. Gordon
                      Jason, A 23 Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up at the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger was very
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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                        Jason,

                        A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up at
                        the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger was
                        very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthy
                        boat by design. (This was the early 80's.) It was the first boat with
                        a "cutwater" that I remember seeing. Plywood taped seam construction.

                        I still want to build it from the cartoon. I have developed the
                        offsets and faired them with an old CAD program.

                        Lewis
                        (too many projects)

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
                        > I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of
                        > small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
                        > boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
                        > confidence.
                        >
                        > "seaworthy"......you decide what that means
                        >
                        > AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
                        > AS29......maybe, maybe not
                        > seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
                        > The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
                        > Centenial II.......not me
                        > Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
                        > Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i didn't
                        > ask......must be some crazies out there
                        > Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
                        > Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
                        > romp.......well proven
                        > yonder.....better than romp
                        > Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
                        > etc.
                        >
                        > What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
                        > never even heard off.
                        >
                        > jason
                      • Jason Stancil
                        ... at ... was ... Can anyone post a scan of this thing? Thanks, Jason
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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                          > A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up
                          at
                          > the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger
                          was
                          > very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthy
                          > boat by design.

                          Can anyone post a scan of this thing?
                          Thanks,
                          Jason
                        • Hugo Tyson
                          This would be a lot like his Fast Motorsailer featured in his book Boats with an Open Mind(BWAOM) or is it entirely differnt type of concept? Lewis E.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 2, 2004
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                            This would be a lot like his Fast Motorsailer featured in his book Boats with an Open Mind(BWAOM) or is it entirely differnt type of concept?

                            "Lewis E. Gordon" <l_gordon_nica@...> wrote:Jason,

                            A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up at
                            the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger was
                            very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthy
                            boat by design. (This was the early 80's.) It was the first boat with
                            a "cutwater" that I remember seeing. Plywood taped seam construction.

                            I still want to build it from the cartoon. I have developed the
                            offsets and faired them with an old CAD program.

                            Lewis
                            (too many projects)

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
                            > I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of
                            > small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
                            > boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
                            > confidence.
                            >
                            > "seaworthy"......you decide what that means
                            >
                            > AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
                            > AS29......maybe, maybe not
                            > seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
                            > The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
                            > Centenial II.......not me
                            > Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
                            > Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i didn't
                            > ask......must be some crazies out there
                            > Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
                            > Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
                            > romp.......well proven
                            > yonder.....better than romp
                            > Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
                            > etc.
                            >
                            > What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
                            > never even heard off.
                            >
                            > jason



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                          • juan negron
                            And the first time your boat falls off a big wave and you are out on the bow, you will know what seaworthy is. I recall as clear as day the first time I stood
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 3, 2004
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                              And the first time your boat falls off a big wave and you are out on
                              the bow, you will know what seaworthy is.

                              I recall as clear as day the first time I stood there cresting on one
                              wave and looking 20 feet down into the trough I was petrified and
                              when we drove down and only about a quart of water came on deck, I
                              was blown away. Sure did wonders for my confidence.

                              I recall bright sunny days watching 3 or 4 meter waves (they are
                              ...

                              In my very limited experience, and in my waters ( the Med ), I have
                              learned that there usually is a size of wave, just under the size that
                              will float the boat over it, that is much more dangerous than the
                              large ones.

                              Large waves ( unless breaking ) tend to make boats do the bottle
                              cork, but the smaller ones that make the boat break them are the ones
                              that stress the boat and crew, and can, if not careful, trip or break
                              you.

                              Juan.
                            • Bruce Hallman
                              ... http://hallman.org/sbj/74/ Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM The hull shape is close to Col.H.G.Hasler.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 3, 2004
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                                > Can anyone post a scan of this thing?
                                http://hallman.org/sbj/74/

                                Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM
                                The hull shape is close to Col.H.G.Hasler.
                              • Jason Stancil
                                ... ************************************************* Thanks Bruce- Somebody asks and you post a picture. Have you converted your garage to a library? Jason
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 3, 2004
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                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                                  > > Can anyone post a scan of this thing?
                                  > http://hallman.org/sbj/74/
                                  >
                                  > Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM
                                  > The hull shape is close to Col.H.G.Hasler.
                                  *************************************************
                                  Thanks Bruce-
                                  Somebody asks and you post a picture. Have you converted your garage
                                  to a library?
                                  Jason
                                • pvanderwaart
                                  ... Quite like the 30 cargo Motorsailer. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/MS%20Cargo%20Boat/
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Aug 3, 2004
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                                    > http://hallman.org/sbj/74/
                                    > Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM

                                    Quite like the 30' cargo Motorsailer.

                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/MS%20Cargo%20Boat/
                                  • Sam Glasscock
                                    Wow--that could be modified into a great liveaboard. Anybody have any information about this design? Have any been built? ...
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 3, 2004
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                                      Wow--that could be modified into a great liveaboard.
                                      Anybody have any information about this design? Have
                                      any been built?
                                      --- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:

                                      > > http://hallman.org/sbj/74/
                                      > > Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM
                                      >
                                      > Quite like the 30' cargo Motorsailer.
                                      >



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                                    • pvanderwaart
                                      ... Indeed so. I believe that one is under construction, but I have not seen any pictures. It is easy to see how the house could be extended thru the hold area
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 3, 2004
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                                        > Wow--that could be modified into a great liveaboard.

                                        Indeed so. I believe that one is under construction, but I have not
                                        seen any pictures. It is easy to see how the house could be extended
                                        thru the hold area to make a roomy boat, as you suggest, but, damn,
                                        that well-deck would be a great "space" (as they say in
                                        achitecture).

                                        Peter
                                      • Todd
                                        Seaworthy.... VMG with out effort or stress, comfortably!!! Todd ... didn t
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Aug 3, 2004
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                                          Seaworthy.... VMG with out effort or stress, comfortably!!!

                                          Todd
                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of
                                          > small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
                                          > boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
                                          > confidence.
                                          >
                                          > "seaworthy"......you decide what that means
                                          >
                                          > AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
                                          > AS29......maybe, maybe not
                                          > seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
                                          > The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
                                          > Centenial II.......not me
                                          > Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
                                          > Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i
                                          didn't
                                          > ask......must be some crazies out there
                                          > Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
                                          > Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
                                          > romp.......well proven
                                          > yonder.....better than romp
                                          > Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
                                          > etc.
                                          >
                                          > What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
                                          > never even heard off.
                                          >
                                          > jason
                                        • Peter Lenihan
                                          ... wrote: Jason, As a friend of mine is fond of saying, they ve crossed the Atlantic on a Windsurfer and the Titanic sank! Good construction,good seamanship
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 4, 2004
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                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                                            wrote:


                                            Jason,
                                            As a friend of mine is fond of saying,"they've crossed the
                                            Atlantic on a Windsurfer and the Titanic sank!" Good
                                            construction,good seamanship and good luck play very big,key,roles
                                            in the success of any off-shore small boat adventure.
                                            And yes,too,just how much dis-comfort you think you can put up
                                            with for a protracted length of time :-)
                                            But lets' not dilly-dally over this,you've got a boat to build
                                            and launch before Christmas! Enough time on the computer alraedy! :-)


                                            Sincerely,

                                            Peter Lenihan,looking forward to seeing a Micro Navigator,any
                                            Navigator,even a Micro(!) under sail..........
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