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Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger design direction

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... The Instant Boat phase of Bolger s work came after 30 years of designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats by my estimate. No big
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 1, 2004
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      Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@...> wrote:
      > I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
      > seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
      > boats.

      The 'Instant Boat' phase of Bolger's work came after 30 years of
      designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats
      by my estimate. No big surprise that his styles and tastes have
      changed with time.
    • dbaldnz
      Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost of one turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his economy boat designs. And
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 2, 2004
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        Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost of one
        turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his
        economy boat designs. And it seems to coincide with his new
        partner.....just an observation,
        DonB
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
        > Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
        > > I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
        > > seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
        > > boats.
        >
        > The 'Instant Boat' phase of Bolger's work came after 30 years of
        > designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats
        > by my estimate. No big surprise that his styles and tastes have
        > changed with time.
      • Peter Lenihan
        ... one ... All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in trying to squeeze a boat down to its last drop of basicness with some
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
          > Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost of
          one
          > turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his
          > economy boat designs.

          All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
          trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
          some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
          architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
          course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
          letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
          another point is aimed for.
          I like the "new" swing his creativity has taken,in particular his
          demonstration that plywood built boats need not follow traditional
          plywood shapes or styles.When I think of the forward sections of
          boats like TOPAZ etc,with their developed "fillet pieces" and box-
          keels to soften the ride of an otherwise flat-bottomed boat or the
          cabin profiles and fenestration of this new group, I cannot help but
          think of another rennaisance for amateur boatbuilding. That he
          relies more on plywood may also suggest his sensitivity to dwindling
          supplies of old fashion boat lumber and the high cost of what is
          obtainable.
          But that last part is just speculation on my part :-)

          On HIS side too is the long list of boats with enchanting lines and
          salty appearances which,sometimes over-shadowed by HIS more
          outragious populace plywood designs,are just too "complex" and
          expensive for a simple backyard amateur boabuilder.
          The best testamonial is the very fact that HE continues to be"right
          there" producing fresh designs(back-logged with work,infact!) yet
          some of HIS basic stuff,like the Instant boat fleet continues to
          draw complete and not so complete novices into building their own
          boat some 20+ years after they were designed. He does indeed have
          an "Open Mind" for"Different Boats" ,"Odd Boats" and "Small Boats"
          while always ready for new design "Adventures"..:-D


          Sincerely,

          Peter Lenihan,who even today spent some time parked on my rear-end
          in front of Windermere being seduced by the shape of the fillet
          pieces which I KNOW were just plywood panels yet remain confounded
          by their transformation into such a lovely complex shape,from along
          the shores of the steamy St.Lawrence..........
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... Tortoise Such a wee punt! Too ugly to steal Right-side-up & dry Made a cat laugh.
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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            > trying to squeeze a boat down to
            > its' last drop of "basicness" with [haiku].

            Tortoise

            Such a wee punt!
            Too ugly to steal
            Right-side-up & dry
            Made a cat laugh.
          • Jason Stancil
            ... gifted :).......bolgerados are such a talented bunch
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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              > Tortoise
              >
              > Such a wee punt!
              > Too ugly to steal
              > Right-side-up & dry
              > Made a cat laugh.

              gifted :).......bolgerados are such a talented bunch
            • David Ryan
              FBBB, An untempered mania for thrift is no better than an untempered mania for weatherliness, or any other one design characteristic. Design is about making
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                FBBB,

                An untempered mania for thrift is no better than an untempered mania
                for weatherliness, or any other one design characteristic. Design is
                about making compromises. Good design is making good compromises.

                YIBB,

                David
              • juan negron
                All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in trying to squeeze a boat down to its last drop of basicness with some designs being so
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                  All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                  trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                  some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                  architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                  course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                  letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                  another point is aimed for.

                  I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                  not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                  of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                  design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                  I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                  two kids!

                  As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                  obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                  emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                  of one of the facets of a boat designer.

                  You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                  a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                  these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                  wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                  They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                  that I think is a joke on those not in the know.

                  Juan.
                • John B. Trussell
                  Bolger s genius/weakness is that he established a set of parameters for a design and pursued those parameters to their logical conclusion, no matter how far
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                    Bolger's genius/weakness is that he established a set of parameters for a design and pursued those parameters to their logical conclusion, no matter how far off the beaten path that took him. All men need the guidance of a good woman, and since PCB became PB&F, the resulting designs have become a little more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive. A classic example is Birdwatcher I vs. Birdwatcher II. Both boats have the same interior volume and seaworthiness. BW II is probably faster, more refined, expensive, and heavier than BW I. Happily, both sets of plans remain available, so you can choose between them (or mix and match features from both).

                    John T
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: juan negron
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger design direction


                    All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                    trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                    some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                    architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                    course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                    letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                    another point is aimed for.

                    I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                    not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                    of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                    design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                    I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                    two kids!

                    As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                    obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                    emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                    of one of the facets of a boat designer.

                    You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                    a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                    these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                    wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                    They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                    that I think is a joke on those not in the know.

                    Juan.


                    Bolger rules!!!
                    - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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                  • dbaldnz
                    You must be thinking of someone else on this thread Juan, because I never criticized the simple boats at all. In fact I had to restrain myself from building a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                      You must be thinking of someone else on this thread Juan, because I
                      never criticized the simple boats at all. In fact I had to restrain
                      myself from building a Brick at one stage!
                      I also agree that some of his designs like Brick reach the pinnacle of
                      simplicity, and purity, a good word you use.
                      DonB

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, juan negron <juan.negron@g...> wrote:
                      > All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                      > trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                      > some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                      > architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                      > course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                      > letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                      > another point is aimed for.
                      >
                      > I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                      > not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                      > of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                      > design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                      > I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                      > two kids!
                      >
                      > As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                      > obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                      > emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                      > of one of the facets of a boat designer.
                      >
                      > You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                      > a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                      > these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                      > wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                      > They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                      > that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
                      >
                      > Juan.
                    • dbaldnz
                      Ah, you speak a great truth John. Show me a man with a woman in this Group, who hasn t found his life become more conventional, complex, and a lot more
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
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                        Ah, you speak a great truth John.
                        Show me a man with a woman in this Group, who hasn't found his life
                        become more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive!
                        Providentially it came to Phillip C. Bolger a lot later in life than
                        most of us.
                        DonB

                        "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...> All men need the guidance
                        of a good woman, and since PCB became PB&F, the resulting designs have
                        become a little more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive.
                        >
                        > John T
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: juan negron
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:27 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger design direction
                        >
                        >
                        > All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                        > trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                        > some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                        > architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                        > course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                        > letting us knhat he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                        > another point is aimed for.
                        >
                        > I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                        > not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                        > of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                        > design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                        > I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                        > two kids!
                        >
                        > As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                        > obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                        > emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                        > of one of the facets of a boat designer.
                        >
                        > You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                        > a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                        > these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                        > wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                        > They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                        > that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
                        >
                        > Juan.
                        >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                        posts
                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > ADVERTISEMENT
                        >
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                        >
                        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
                        >
                        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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                        >
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                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lincoln Ross
                        As owner of half a Brick, I have to agree. (Which half, I m afraid I don t know.) The silly thing sails much better than it has any right to, and it s way
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                          As owner of half a Brick, I have to agree. (Which half, I'm afraid I
                          don't know.) The silly thing sails much better than it has any right to,
                          and it's way roomy, comfortable, and it can carry a huge load. There
                          should be more Bricks. My friends kids don't really like his 24 foot
                          glass boat, but they really like the Brick.

                          >juan negron wrote:
                          >
                          > snip
                          >I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                          >not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                          >of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                          >design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                          >I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                          >two kids!
                          >
                          >snip
                          >You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                          >a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                          >these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                          >wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                          >They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                          >that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
                          >
                          >Juan.
                          >
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Like haiku poetry. If we are going to start arguing of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, lets discuss which Bolger boat is the true pinnacle
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                            dbaldnz wrote:
                            > I also agree that some of his designs
                            > like Brick reach the pinnacle of
                            > simplicity, and purity,

                            Like haiku poetry.

                            If we are going to start arguing of
                            how many angels can dance on the
                            head of a pin, lets discuss which
                            Bolger boat is the true pinnacle of
                            this design philosophy.

                            I would argue that it is Tortoise,
                            which has the elegant simplicity
                            of the others, but unlike the others
                            it has more...it has 'function'.

                            Brick is more or less an intellectual
                            exercise is how much boat can be
                            squeezed out of three sheets of
                            plywood, with the 'function' being
                            secondary.

                            Tortoise, on the other hand, is an
                            response to the desire: To find
                            the perfect, capable, disposable
                            boat tender.

                            Bolger describes Tortoise:
                            =========quoting=====
                            This was meant to he a disposable boat
                            if there ever was one: shop-grade
                            plywood (though I'm beginning to think
                            this cheap material may be less apt to rot
                            than exterior-grade), no priming, one coat
                            of white paint. But Tortoise grew on me.
                            She rowed quite well if I kept the stroke
                            short and gentle. She towed in docile
                            fashion at eight knots (as fast as the
                            cruiser would go). I could swing around
                            in her, and even stand up, without feeling
                            very insecure. She carried without
                            protest two live men and two dead
                            marine batteries. I could throw the oars
                            and the seat up on the cruiser's deck,
                            about 4' above the water, and snake the
                            punt up after me .without a second
                            thought.... I figured it
                            would take up so little room on a public
                            float that nobody would resent it lying
                            there, look so unpretentious that vandals
                            might not think of vandalizing it, and cost
                            so little that it wouldn't break my heart if
                            they did. It was also supposed to be of
                            the right proportions to rest my weight on
                            when I had to walk over salt-water ice,
                            pushing it ahead of me.
                          • pvanderwaart
                            ... Alternatly, would could discuss adopting (or inventing) an Official Light Verse Form for the Bolger Group.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                              > Like haiku poetry.

                              Alternatly, would could discuss adopting (or inventing) an Official
                              Light Verse Form for the Bolger Group.
                            • Lincoln Ross
                              I think it s more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I ve sailed it with
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                                I think it's more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the
                                least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I've
                                sailed it with two adults, and with 4 little boys as passengers, and
                                have seen it with 4 adults. Only the 4 adults seemed too much, although
                                it did work. I think it works way better than an intellectual exercise,
                                at least if built close to plans and using the Bohndell sail. With two
                                people you can just tack upwind, moving only the hand that is on the
                                tiller and not anything else except maybe turning your head to look
                                around. Comfy. With a crew weight around 400 lbs. it seemed slightly
                                underloaded.

                                >Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                >
                                >snip
                                >Brick is more or less an intellectual
                                >exercise is how much boat can be
                                >squeezed out of three sheets of
                                >plywood, with the 'function' being
                                >secondary.
                                >
                                snip
                              • Mark
                                Comfy s the word. Mine s just barely wet but clearly is about twice as contained, safe, and stable feeling as functional 8 foot boat could possibly be. Most
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
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                                  Comfy's the word. Mine's just barely wet but clearly is about twice as contained, safe,
                                  and stable feeling as functional
                                  8 foot boat could possibly be.

                                  Most _boat_ from three sheets of plywood, definitely. Not letting the esthetics or
                                  what's thought to be proper compromise the function is also part of the rigor. Yet, maybe
                                  it's only 'cause I have the labor in one or the appropriate sense of humor, but can even
                                  like the looks.

                                  Mark


                                  Lincoln Ross wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I think it's more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the
                                  > least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I've
                                  > sailed it with two adults, and with 4 little boys as passengers, and
                                  > have seen it with 4 adults. Only the 4 adults seemed too much, although
                                  > it did work. I think it works way better than an intellectual exercise,
                                  > at least if built close to plans and using the Bohndell sail. With two
                                  > people you can just tack upwind, moving only the hand that is on the
                                  > tiller and not anything else except maybe turning your head to look
                                  > around. Comfy. With a crew weight around 400 lbs. it seemed slightly
                                  > underloaded.

                                  > >Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >snip
                                  > >Brick is more or less an intellectual
                                  > >exercise is how much boat can be
                                  > >squeezed out of three sheets of
                                  > >plywood, with the 'function' being
                                  > >secondary.
                                  > >
                                  > snip
                                  >
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