Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Bolger design direction

Expand Messages
  • dbaldnz
    A first look at Wandervogel shows an interesting design, clearly following on from other recent boats. But thinking further, is Bolger not heading in a
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 1, 2004
      A first look at Wandervogel shows an interesting design, clearly
      following on from other recent boats.
      But thinking further, is Bolger not heading in a different direction
      from his earlier designs? I am considering here his smaller sailing
      boats for basic purposes. When you consider Wandervogel, she has 2
      rudders, 2 tabernacles, a multitude of wooden spars in a complicated
      arrangement, lots of expensive lexan sheet, all taking lots more
      time and money than previous designs for similar use.
      I suspect this trend has evolved with his wife's participation in
      the design process.
      I'm not making these comments critically, rather to notice a
      definite shift in his philosophy.
      DonB
    • Jason Stancil
      Don- I totally agree. Bolger s newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have seen have gotten much more complex since the original instant boats. I was wondering if
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 1, 2004
        Don-

        I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
        seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
        boats. I was wondering if some of these changes, i.e. steel plates,
        tabernacles, rigs, lexan and such is a product of Susan's influence.
        So be it. I think that new boat(forgot the name) is great, i really
        like it better than the birdwatcher, Jochem's and MJ. But i bet
        Martha Jane could most likely be built in 2/3's the time and cost
        (original MJ).
        Same goes for the micro evolution. The first looked to be great but
        the latter suites me better. I think the micro has lost alot of
        simplicity since it's inception. But it still beats cold molding a
        farthing though. Regardless the boats, both old and new retain the
        Bolger charm.

        Jason
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... The Instant Boat phase of Bolger s work came after 30 years of designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats by my estimate. No big
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 1, 2004
          Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@...> wrote:
          > I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
          > seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
          > boats.

          The 'Instant Boat' phase of Bolger's work came after 30 years of
          designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats
          by my estimate. No big surprise that his styles and tastes have
          changed with time.
        • dbaldnz
          Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost of one turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his economy boat designs. And
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 2, 2004
            Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost of one
            turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his
            economy boat designs. And it seems to coincide with his new
            partner.....just an observation,
            DonB
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
            > Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
            > > I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
            > > seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
            > > boats.
            >
            > The 'Instant Boat' phase of Bolger's work came after 30 years of
            > designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats
            > by my estimate. No big surprise that his styles and tastes have
            > changed with time.
          • Peter Lenihan
            ... one ... All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in trying to squeeze a boat down to its last drop of basicness with some
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
              > Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost of
              one
              > turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his
              > economy boat designs.

              All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
              trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
              some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
              architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
              course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
              letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
              another point is aimed for.
              I like the "new" swing his creativity has taken,in particular his
              demonstration that plywood built boats need not follow traditional
              plywood shapes or styles.When I think of the forward sections of
              boats like TOPAZ etc,with their developed "fillet pieces" and box-
              keels to soften the ride of an otherwise flat-bottomed boat or the
              cabin profiles and fenestration of this new group, I cannot help but
              think of another rennaisance for amateur boatbuilding. That he
              relies more on plywood may also suggest his sensitivity to dwindling
              supplies of old fashion boat lumber and the high cost of what is
              obtainable.
              But that last part is just speculation on my part :-)

              On HIS side too is the long list of boats with enchanting lines and
              salty appearances which,sometimes over-shadowed by HIS more
              outragious populace plywood designs,are just too "complex" and
              expensive for a simple backyard amateur boabuilder.
              The best testamonial is the very fact that HE continues to be"right
              there" producing fresh designs(back-logged with work,infact!) yet
              some of HIS basic stuff,like the Instant boat fleet continues to
              draw complete and not so complete novices into building their own
              boat some 20+ years after they were designed. He does indeed have
              an "Open Mind" for"Different Boats" ,"Odd Boats" and "Small Boats"
              while always ready for new design "Adventures"..:-D


              Sincerely,

              Peter Lenihan,who even today spent some time parked on my rear-end
              in front of Windermere being seduced by the shape of the fillet
              pieces which I KNOW were just plywood panels yet remain confounded
              by their transformation into such a lovely complex shape,from along
              the shores of the steamy St.Lawrence..........
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Tortoise Such a wee punt! Too ugly to steal Right-side-up & dry Made a cat laugh.
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                > trying to squeeze a boat down to
                > its' last drop of "basicness" with [haiku].

                Tortoise

                Such a wee punt!
                Too ugly to steal
                Right-side-up & dry
                Made a cat laugh.
              • Jason Stancil
                ... gifted :).......bolgerados are such a talented bunch
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                  > Tortoise
                  >
                  > Such a wee punt!
                  > Too ugly to steal
                  > Right-side-up & dry
                  > Made a cat laugh.

                  gifted :).......bolgerados are such a talented bunch
                • David Ryan
                  FBBB, An untempered mania for thrift is no better than an untempered mania for weatherliness, or any other one design characteristic. Design is about making
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                    FBBB,

                    An untempered mania for thrift is no better than an untempered mania
                    for weatherliness, or any other one design characteristic. Design is
                    about making compromises. Good design is making good compromises.

                    YIBB,

                    David
                  • juan negron
                    All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in trying to squeeze a boat down to its last drop of basicness with some designs being so
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                      All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                      trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                      some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                      architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                      course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                      letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                      another point is aimed for.

                      I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                      not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                      of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                      design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                      I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                      two kids!

                      As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                      obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                      emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                      of one of the facets of a boat designer.

                      You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                      a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                      these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                      wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                      They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                      that I think is a joke on those not in the know.

                      Juan.
                    • John B. Trussell
                      Bolger s genius/weakness is that he established a set of parameters for a design and pursued those parameters to their logical conclusion, no matter how far
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                        Bolger's genius/weakness is that he established a set of parameters for a design and pursued those parameters to their logical conclusion, no matter how far off the beaten path that took him. All men need the guidance of a good woman, and since PCB became PB&F, the resulting designs have become a little more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive. A classic example is Birdwatcher I vs. Birdwatcher II. Both boats have the same interior volume and seaworthiness. BW II is probably faster, more refined, expensive, and heavier than BW I. Happily, both sets of plans remain available, so you can choose between them (or mix and match features from both).

                        John T
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: juan negron
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:27 PM
                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger design direction


                        All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                        trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                        some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                        architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                        course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                        letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                        another point is aimed for.

                        I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                        not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                        of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                        design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                        I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                        two kids!

                        As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                        obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                        emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                        of one of the facets of a boat designer.

                        You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                        a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                        these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                        wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                        They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                        that I think is a joke on those not in the know.

                        Juan.


                        Bolger rules!!!
                        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT





                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/

                        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dbaldnz
                        You must be thinking of someone else on this thread Juan, because I never criticized the simple boats at all. In fact I had to restrain myself from building a
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                          You must be thinking of someone else on this thread Juan, because I
                          never criticized the simple boats at all. In fact I had to restrain
                          myself from building a Brick at one stage!
                          I also agree that some of his designs like Brick reach the pinnacle of
                          simplicity, and purity, a good word you use.
                          DonB

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, juan negron <juan.negron@g...> wrote:
                          > All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                          > trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                          > some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                          > architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                          > course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                          > letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                          > another point is aimed for.
                          >
                          > I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                          > not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                          > of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                          > design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                          > I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                          > two kids!
                          >
                          > As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                          > obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                          > emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                          > of one of the facets of a boat designer.
                          >
                          > You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                          > a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                          > these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                          > wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                          > They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                          > that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
                          >
                          > Juan.
                        • dbaldnz
                          Ah, you speak a great truth John. Show me a man with a woman in this Group, who hasn t found his life become more conventional, complex, and a lot more
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 4, 2004
                            Ah, you speak a great truth John.
                            Show me a man with a woman in this Group, who hasn't found his life
                            become more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive!
                            Providentially it came to Phillip C. Bolger a lot later in life than
                            most of us.
                            DonB

                            "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...> All men need the guidance
                            of a good woman, and since PCB became PB&F, the resulting designs have
                            become a little more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive.
                            >
                            > John T
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: juan negron
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:27 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger design direction
                            >
                            >
                            > All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
                            > trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
                            > some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
                            > architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
                            > course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
                            > letting us knhat he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
                            > another point is aimed for.
                            >
                            > I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                            > not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                            > of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                            > design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                            > I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                            > two kids!
                            >
                            > As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
                            > obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
                            > emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
                            > of one of the facets of a boat designer.
                            >
                            > You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                            > a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                            > these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                            > wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                            > They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                            > that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
                            >
                            > Juan.
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
                            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                            > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                            posts
                            > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                            > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                            01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > ADVERTISEMENT
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
                            >
                            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Lincoln Ross
                            As owner of half a Brick, I have to agree. (Which half, I m afraid I don t know.) The silly thing sails much better than it has any right to, and it s way
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                              As owner of half a Brick, I have to agree. (Which half, I'm afraid I
                              don't know.) The silly thing sails much better than it has any right to,
                              and it's way roomy, comfortable, and it can carry a huge load. There
                              should be more Bricks. My friends kids don't really like his 24 foot
                              glass boat, but they really like the Brick.

                              >juan negron wrote:
                              >
                              > snip
                              >I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
                              >not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
                              >of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
                              >design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
                              >I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
                              >two kids!
                              >
                              >snip
                              >You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
                              >a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
                              >these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
                              >wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
                              >They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
                              >that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
                              >
                              >Juan.
                              >
                            • Bruce Hallman
                              ... Like haiku poetry. If we are going to start arguing of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, lets discuss which Bolger boat is the true pinnacle
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                                dbaldnz wrote:
                                > I also agree that some of his designs
                                > like Brick reach the pinnacle of
                                > simplicity, and purity,

                                Like haiku poetry.

                                If we are going to start arguing of
                                how many angels can dance on the
                                head of a pin, lets discuss which
                                Bolger boat is the true pinnacle of
                                this design philosophy.

                                I would argue that it is Tortoise,
                                which has the elegant simplicity
                                of the others, but unlike the others
                                it has more...it has 'function'.

                                Brick is more or less an intellectual
                                exercise is how much boat can be
                                squeezed out of three sheets of
                                plywood, with the 'function' being
                                secondary.

                                Tortoise, on the other hand, is an
                                response to the desire: To find
                                the perfect, capable, disposable
                                boat tender.

                                Bolger describes Tortoise:
                                =========quoting=====
                                This was meant to he a disposable boat
                                if there ever was one: shop-grade
                                plywood (though I'm beginning to think
                                this cheap material may be less apt to rot
                                than exterior-grade), no priming, one coat
                                of white paint. But Tortoise grew on me.
                                She rowed quite well if I kept the stroke
                                short and gentle. She towed in docile
                                fashion at eight knots (as fast as the
                                cruiser would go). I could swing around
                                in her, and even stand up, without feeling
                                very insecure. She carried without
                                protest two live men and two dead
                                marine batteries. I could throw the oars
                                and the seat up on the cruiser's deck,
                                about 4' above the water, and snake the
                                punt up after me .without a second
                                thought.... I figured it
                                would take up so little room on a public
                                float that nobody would resent it lying
                                there, look so unpretentious that vandals
                                might not think of vandalizing it, and cost
                                so little that it wouldn't break my heart if
                                they did. It was also supposed to be of
                                the right proportions to rest my weight on
                                when I had to walk over salt-water ice,
                                pushing it ahead of me.
                              • pvanderwaart
                                ... Alternatly, would could discuss adopting (or inventing) an Official Light Verse Form for the Bolger Group.
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                                  > Like haiku poetry.

                                  Alternatly, would could discuss adopting (or inventing) an Official
                                  Light Verse Form for the Bolger Group.
                                • Lincoln Ross
                                  I think it s more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I ve sailed it with
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                                    I think it's more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the
                                    least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I've
                                    sailed it with two adults, and with 4 little boys as passengers, and
                                    have seen it with 4 adults. Only the 4 adults seemed too much, although
                                    it did work. I think it works way better than an intellectual exercise,
                                    at least if built close to plans and using the Bohndell sail. With two
                                    people you can just tack upwind, moving only the hand that is on the
                                    tiller and not anything else except maybe turning your head to look
                                    around. Comfy. With a crew weight around 400 lbs. it seemed slightly
                                    underloaded.

                                    >Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                    >
                                    >snip
                                    >Brick is more or less an intellectual
                                    >exercise is how much boat can be
                                    >squeezed out of three sheets of
                                    >plywood, with the 'function' being
                                    >secondary.
                                    >
                                    snip
                                  • Mark
                                    Comfy s the word. Mine s just barely wet but clearly is about twice as contained, safe, and stable feeling as functional 8 foot boat could possibly be. Most
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 5, 2004
                                      Comfy's the word. Mine's just barely wet but clearly is about twice as contained, safe,
                                      and stable feeling as functional
                                      8 foot boat could possibly be.

                                      Most _boat_ from three sheets of plywood, definitely. Not letting the esthetics or
                                      what's thought to be proper compromise the function is also part of the rigor. Yet, maybe
                                      it's only 'cause I have the labor in one or the appropriate sense of humor, but can even
                                      like the looks.

                                      Mark


                                      Lincoln Ross wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I think it's more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the
                                      > least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I've
                                      > sailed it with two adults, and with 4 little boys as passengers, and
                                      > have seen it with 4 adults. Only the 4 adults seemed too much, although
                                      > it did work. I think it works way better than an intellectual exercise,
                                      > at least if built close to plans and using the Bohndell sail. With two
                                      > people you can just tack upwind, moving only the hand that is on the
                                      > tiller and not anything else except maybe turning your head to look
                                      > around. Comfy. With a crew weight around 400 lbs. it seemed slightly
                                      > underloaded.

                                      > >Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >snip
                                      > >Brick is more or less an intellectual
                                      > >exercise is how much boat can be
                                      > >squeezed out of three sheets of
                                      > >plywood, with the 'function' being
                                      > >secondary.
                                      > >
                                      > snip
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.