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Re: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

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  • Roger Derby
    I m just regurgitating what I ve read and tried, not passing judgement. My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it s tabernacle looks interesting because
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
      I'm just regurgitating what I've read and tried, not passing judgement.

      My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it's tabernacle looks
      interesting because the mast's foot is held into it with turnbuckles. Add a
      spacer inside before tightening the turnbuckles and you've changed the mast
      rake.

      When I was planning and building my copy of Badger, a J. Benford designed
      junk rig schooner featured in Annie Hill's great book "Voyaging on a Small
      Income," I read everything I could find on the junk rig. I like it! The
      bible for that one is Hassler and McCleod's "Practical Junk Rig." They
      include the procedure (in excruciating detail) for converting from more
      standard rigs. They also give some example rigs in the back of the book.

      If you get hold of a copy, skim thru it first as they seem to cover the same
      process several times and some explanations are clearer or more useful.
      (There's also a lot of great, non-junk rig stuff shown; e.g. mast sizing and
      construction, lightning protection, a conning dome and associated igloo-like
      dodger, etc.)

      Where they are talking of converting to a junk rig, they tend to keep the
      center of the sail plan in the same place as it was on the original rig
      IIRC. There's room to play here because there is (or can be) a line which
      adjusts how much of the sail is forward of the mast. The junk sail is often
      significantly larger than the sail it replaces because it's so easy to reef.

      I don't think I'd bother trying to change the calculated lead when going to
      a junk rig. The sail shapes are so different that it's apples and oranges.
      I'd try it and then trim it.

      > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
      > what do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.

      It does look like fun. You'll get more area up high where it isn't becalmed
      by the waves as often, and you will start a lot of conversations.

      Sheeting is a problem with the junk rig. I think the scheme you show will
      interfere with the junk sail on the mizzen.

      I'd try eliminating sheet #3 and combining #1 & #2 with an euphroe so you
      have a single line to diddle. IIRC, they don't usually sheet the gaff or
      topmost battan. Your scheme will give better control of the sail's sag, but
      the winds are fairer aloft so that may not be needed.

      The Chinese often have two sets of sheets, port and starboard, on each sail,
      when the masts are too close together or the hull ends too soon.

      Without calculating the centers of the sails, it doesn't look like you've
      changed the CE for the main much at all. With the Chinese scheme of merging
      the many into a single sheet, reefing is automatic -- no extra lines needed.
      Just start the halyard, then tighten the sheet and the yard hauling parrel
      at your leisure. The pull of the lower elements of the sheet automatically
      holds the lower battans down where you want them, snuggled in their lazy
      jacks.

      Roger
      derbyrm@...
      derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>


      > Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed
      > hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island
      > fell asleep woke up just before hitting one of the farthest
      > oil islands. Turned around and headed back. Sure could
      > use more sail on the down hill rides.
      > Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
      > maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
      > about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
      > are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
      > is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
      > experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
      > leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
      > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
      > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
      > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
      > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
      > standard rig?
      >
      > Todd




      >
      >
      > up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
      > > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more
      > > than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that
      > > exists only on paper and making sure it will not be too awful
      > > when built, but once you have a hull and rig, your feel under
      > > sail is a whole lot more useful.
      > >
      > > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
      > >
      > > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
      > > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
      > main that
      > > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
      > ( boat
      > > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
      > >
      > > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
      > to control
      > > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
      > Do you
      > > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
      > the CE
      > > aft and increases the weather helm?
      > >
      > > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
      > change the
      > > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
      > >
      > > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
      > If you're
      > > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
      > centerboard raised
      > > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
      > of
      > > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
      > weather
      > > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
      > that "raising" the
      > > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
      > area
      > > significantly.
      > >
      > > Main mast rake?
      > >
      > > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
      > the
      > > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
      > was
      > > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
      > forward as
      > > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
      > back
      > > when I had abs.
      > >
      > > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
      > answers are
      > > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
      > Have fun.
      > >
      > > Roger
      > > derbyrm@s...
      > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
      > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
      > > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
      > >
      > >
      > > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
      > not
      > > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
      > helm
      > > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
      > > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
      > seems
      > > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
      > the
      > > > weather helm.
      > > >
      > > > How much leed would one need?
      > > >
      > > > Todd
      > > >
      > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
      > wrote:
      > > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
      > > > >
      > > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
      > > > Line.
      > > > >
      > > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
      > > > >
      > > > > Roger :-)
      > > > > derbyrm@s...
      > > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
      > > > >
      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
      > > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > 417lbs
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
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      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
      (978) 282-1349
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      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      >
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... The question ... tabernackle ... and ... the ... Hi Todd, Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the beautiful sunny coast of Southern
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
        The question
        > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
        tabernackle
        > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
        > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
        and
        > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
        the
        > standard rig?
        >
        > Todd

        Hi Todd,
        Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the
        beautiful sunny coast of Southern California,why would you need a
        tabernacle for you mainmast anyway? Surely there can't be that many
        low lying bridges to contend with :-)
        As long as the center of effort for the junk mainsail remains
        in the same postion as on the standard Micro rig,I think it fair to
        conclude that handling the helm will be the same.
        However,if you start shifting centers around without
        considering other adjustments,then you could be setting yourself for
        some disappointment.
        Perhaps to get the best return on your proposed modification,it
        would be best to write the designer for specs. best suited for your
        needs?
        Sorry I can't be more helpful :-(

        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan
      • Peter Lenihan
        ... I also mean winds above 15knots not ... helm ... seems ... the ... Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown on the original Micro
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
          I also mean winds above 15knots not
          > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
          helm
          > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
          > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
          seems
          > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
          the
          > weather helm.
          > Todd

          Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
          on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
          half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
          points shown on the original plans.
          I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
          slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
          dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
          that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
          over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
          into full gale mode :-)

          Sincerely,

          Peter Lenihan
        • Peter Lenihan
          ... what ... Todd, I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look good. Lots
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
            > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
            what
            > do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


            Todd,
            I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the
            proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look
            good. Lots of great interior room too,I suspect :-)
            Sadly, I don't think it will help much in putting some fun back
            into your Micro since it is begining to get further away from the
            clean simple elegance afforded by the original Micro design.
            Nevertheless, your rendering certainly merits further study and
            perhaps even a proper design work-up,on a fresh clean sheet of
            drafting paper. Imagine this design about 20' to 24' loa,with full
            standing headroom,enclosed head,leeboards,flat steel-plate on
            outside of hull bottom for ballast and grounding protection.....!
            You could call it the TODDPAN 24 and market it world wide from
            the confines of your own floating office which,of course, would be
            the prototype of this new design offering :-)
            Now that sounds like good fun to me :-)


            Sincerely,

            Peter Lenihan
          • pvanderwaart
            ... In Bolgerland, Mizzen just for balance = yawl Mizzen provides drive = ketch Peter
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
              > Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
              > Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

              In Bolgerland,

              Mizzen just for balance = yawl
              Mizzen provides drive = ketch

              Peter
            • dangonn@yahoo.com
              Seems to me that s a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another reefing option for the conditions. I haven t suffered from too much
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another
                reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much weather helm with my
                Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite tight so that I can
                sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather helm? The more
                lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just curious, thanks.

                Hope that helps,

                Dan

                Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> wrote:
                > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                > points shown on the original plans.
                > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                > into full gale mode :-)
                >
                > Sincerely,
                >
                > Peter Lenihan
              • Bill Kreamer
                Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead = more lee helm. -
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                  Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is
                  forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead =
                  more lee helm. - Bill

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: dangonn@... [mailto:dangonn@...]
                  Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:31
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

                  Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points
                  to give another
                  reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much
                  weather helm with my
                  Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite
                  tight so that I can
                  sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                  Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather
                  helm? The more
                  lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just
                  curious, thanks.

                  Hope that helps,

                  Dan

                  Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
                  wrote:
                  > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                  > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                  > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                  > points shown on the original plans.
                  > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                  > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                  > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                  > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                  > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                  > into full gale mode :-)
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  >
                  > Peter Lenihan



                  Bolger rules!!!
                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                  Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com





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