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Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

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  • Jason Stancil
    Todd- Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know better than I. Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with more
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1 8:26 PM
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      Todd-

      Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know
      better than I.

      Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with
      more control and it's almost a junk rig. Bolger is finishing up a
      sketch of the navigator with a larger mizzen and the main mast in a
      tabernacle out in front of the bow transom.....maybe a battened
      mizzen (heres hoping).

      just a thought, i'll post some scans when my blue tube arrives.

      Are those photos of the red and white micro your's?.....that's a
      nice one.

      Jason

      >The question
      > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
      tabernackle
      > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
      > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
      and
      > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
      the
      > standard rig?
    • Roger Derby
      I m just regurgitating what I ve read and tried, not passing judgement. My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it s tabernacle looks interesting because
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1 9:44 PM
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        I'm just regurgitating what I've read and tried, not passing judgement.

        My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it's tabernacle looks
        interesting because the mast's foot is held into it with turnbuckles. Add a
        spacer inside before tightening the turnbuckles and you've changed the mast
        rake.

        When I was planning and building my copy of Badger, a J. Benford designed
        junk rig schooner featured in Annie Hill's great book "Voyaging on a Small
        Income," I read everything I could find on the junk rig. I like it! The
        bible for that one is Hassler and McCleod's "Practical Junk Rig." They
        include the procedure (in excruciating detail) for converting from more
        standard rigs. They also give some example rigs in the back of the book.

        If you get hold of a copy, skim thru it first as they seem to cover the same
        process several times and some explanations are clearer or more useful.
        (There's also a lot of great, non-junk rig stuff shown; e.g. mast sizing and
        construction, lightning protection, a conning dome and associated igloo-like
        dodger, etc.)

        Where they are talking of converting to a junk rig, they tend to keep the
        center of the sail plan in the same place as it was on the original rig
        IIRC. There's room to play here because there is (or can be) a line which
        adjusts how much of the sail is forward of the mast. The junk sail is often
        significantly larger than the sail it replaces because it's so easy to reef.

        I don't think I'd bother trying to change the calculated lead when going to
        a junk rig. The sail shapes are so different that it's apples and oranges.
        I'd try it and then trim it.

        > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
        > what do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.

        It does look like fun. You'll get more area up high where it isn't becalmed
        by the waves as often, and you will start a lot of conversations.

        Sheeting is a problem with the junk rig. I think the scheme you show will
        interfere with the junk sail on the mizzen.

        I'd try eliminating sheet #3 and combining #1 & #2 with an euphroe so you
        have a single line to diddle. IIRC, they don't usually sheet the gaff or
        topmost battan. Your scheme will give better control of the sail's sag, but
        the winds are fairer aloft so that may not be needed.

        The Chinese often have two sets of sheets, port and starboard, on each sail,
        when the masts are too close together or the hull ends too soon.

        Without calculating the centers of the sails, it doesn't look like you've
        changed the CE for the main much at all. With the Chinese scheme of merging
        the many into a single sheet, reefing is automatic -- no extra lines needed.
        Just start the halyard, then tighten the sheet and the yard hauling parrel
        at your leisure. The pull of the lower elements of the sheet automatically
        holds the lower battans down where you want them, snuggled in their lazy
        jacks.

        Roger
        derbyrm@...
        derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>


        > Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed
        > hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island
        > fell asleep woke up just before hitting one of the farthest
        > oil islands. Turned around and headed back. Sure could
        > use more sail on the down hill rides.
        > Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
        > maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
        > about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
        > are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
        > is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
        > experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
        > leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
        > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
        > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
        > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
        > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
        > standard rig?
        >
        > Todd




        >
        >
        > up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
        > > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more
        > > than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that
        > > exists only on paper and making sure it will not be too awful
        > > when built, but once you have a hull and rig, your feel under
        > > sail is a whole lot more useful.
        > >
        > > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
        > >
        > > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
        > > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
        > main that
        > > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
        > ( boat
        > > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
        > >
        > > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
        > to control
        > > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
        > Do you
        > > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
        > the CE
        > > aft and increases the weather helm?
        > >
        > > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
        > change the
        > > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
        > >
        > > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
        > If you're
        > > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
        > centerboard raised
        > > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
        > of
        > > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
        > weather
        > > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
        > that "raising" the
        > > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
        > area
        > > significantly.
        > >
        > > Main mast rake?
        > >
        > > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
        > the
        > > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
        > was
        > > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
        > forward as
        > > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
        > back
        > > when I had abs.
        > >
        > > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
        > answers are
        > > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
        > Have fun.
        > >
        > > Roger
        > > derbyrm@s...
        > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
        > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
        > > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
        > >
        > >
        > > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
        > not
        > > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
        > helm
        > > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
        > > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
        > seems
        > > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
        > the
        > > > weather helm.
        > > >
        > > > How much leed would one need?
        > > >
        > > > Todd
        > > >
        > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
        > wrote:
        > > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
        > > > >
        > > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
        > > > Line.
        > > > >
        > > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
        > > > >
        > > > > Roger :-)
        > > > > derbyrm@s...
        > > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
        > > > >
        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
        > > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 417lbs
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
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        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
        (978) 282-1349
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      • Peter Lenihan
        ... The question ... tabernackle ... and ... the ... Hi Todd, Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the beautiful sunny coast of Southern
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 2 2:18 AM
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
          The question
          > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
          tabernackle
          > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
          > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
          and
          > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
          the
          > standard rig?
          >
          > Todd

          Hi Todd,
          Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the
          beautiful sunny coast of Southern California,why would you need a
          tabernacle for you mainmast anyway? Surely there can't be that many
          low lying bridges to contend with :-)
          As long as the center of effort for the junk mainsail remains
          in the same postion as on the standard Micro rig,I think it fair to
          conclude that handling the helm will be the same.
          However,if you start shifting centers around without
          considering other adjustments,then you could be setting yourself for
          some disappointment.
          Perhaps to get the best return on your proposed modification,it
          would be best to write the designer for specs. best suited for your
          needs?
          Sorry I can't be more helpful :-(

          Sincerely,

          Peter Lenihan
        • Peter Lenihan
          ... I also mean winds above 15knots not ... helm ... seems ... the ... Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown on the original Micro
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 2 2:32 AM
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
            I also mean winds above 15knots not
            > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
            helm
            > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
            > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
            seems
            > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
            the
            > weather helm.
            > Todd

            Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
            on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
            half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
            points shown on the original plans.
            I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
            slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
            dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
            that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
            over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
            into full gale mode :-)

            Sincerely,

            Peter Lenihan
          • Peter Lenihan
            ... what ... Todd, I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look good. Lots
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 2 2:57 AM
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
              > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
              what
              > do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


              Todd,
              I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the
              proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look
              good. Lots of great interior room too,I suspect :-)
              Sadly, I don't think it will help much in putting some fun back
              into your Micro since it is begining to get further away from the
              clean simple elegance afforded by the original Micro design.
              Nevertheless, your rendering certainly merits further study and
              perhaps even a proper design work-up,on a fresh clean sheet of
              drafting paper. Imagine this design about 20' to 24' loa,with full
              standing headroom,enclosed head,leeboards,flat steel-plate on
              outside of hull bottom for ballast and grounding protection.....!
              You could call it the TODDPAN 24 and market it world wide from
              the confines of your own floating office which,of course, would be
              the prototype of this new design offering :-)
              Now that sounds like good fun to me :-)


              Sincerely,

              Peter Lenihan
            • pvanderwaart
              ... In Bolgerland, Mizzen just for balance = yawl Mizzen provides drive = ketch Peter
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 2 6:55 AM
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                > Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
                > Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

                In Bolgerland,

                Mizzen just for balance = yawl
                Mizzen provides drive = ketch

                Peter
              • dangonn@yahoo.com
                Seems to me that s a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another reefing option for the conditions. I haven t suffered from too much
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 2 7:30 AM
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                  Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another
                  reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much weather helm with my
                  Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite tight so that I can
                  sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                  Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather helm? The more
                  lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just curious, thanks.

                  Hope that helps,

                  Dan

                  Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> wrote:
                  > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                  > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                  > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                  > points shown on the original plans.
                  > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                  > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                  > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                  > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                  > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                  > into full gale mode :-)
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  >
                  > Peter Lenihan
                • Bill Kreamer
                  Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead = more lee helm. -
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 2 1:10 PM
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                    Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is
                    forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead =
                    more lee helm. - Bill

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: dangonn@... [mailto:dangonn@...]
                    Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:31
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

                    Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points
                    to give another
                    reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much
                    weather helm with my
                    Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite
                    tight so that I can
                    sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                    Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather
                    helm? The more
                    lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just
                    curious, thanks.

                    Hope that helps,

                    Dan

                    Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
                    wrote:
                    > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                    > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                    > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                    > points shown on the original plans.
                    > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                    > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                    > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                    > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                    > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                    > into full gale mode :-)
                    >
                    > Sincerely,
                    >
                    > Peter Lenihan



                    Bolger rules!!!
                    - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                    Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com





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