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Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

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  • Todd
    I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm and when main sail
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1 5:36 PM
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      I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
      below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
      and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
      weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
      the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
      weather helm.

      How much leed would one need?

      Todd

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
      > While we're picking on Jason ...
      >
      > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
      Line.
      >
      > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
      >
      > Roger :-)
      > derbyrm@s...
      > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
      >
      >
      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
      > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
      > >
      > > 417lbs
    • dbaldnz
      You don t have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd? This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually. DonB ... not ... helm ...
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1 6:42 PM
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        You don't have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd?
        This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually.
        DonB
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
        > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
        not
        > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
        helm
        > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
        > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
        seems
        > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
        the
        > weather helm.
        >
        > How much leed would one need?
        >
        > Todd
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
        > > While we're picking on Jason ...
        > >
        > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
        > Line.
        > >
        > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
        > >
        > > Roger :-)
        > > derbyrm@s...
        > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
        > >
        > >
        > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
        > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
        > > >
        > > > 417lbs
      • Roger Derby
        That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and making sure
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 1 6:46 PM
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          That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat.
          It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and
          making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have a hull
          and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.

          Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.

          How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
          objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed main that
          let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side ( boat
          heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.

          Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension to control
          the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy? Do you
          have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves the CE
          aft and increases the weather helm?

          Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will change the
          lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.

          On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance? If you're
          not beating to windward, you might be better off with the centerboard raised
          a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center of
          lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the weather
          helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible that "raising" the
          CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed area
          significantly.

          Main mast rake?

          The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is the
          Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat," was
          right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far forward as
          you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was back
          when I had abs.

          The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the answers are
          probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with. Have fun.

          Roger
          derbyrm@...
          derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>
          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
          Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?


          > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
          > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
          > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
          > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
          > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
          > weather helm.
          >
          > How much leed would one need?
          >
          > Todd
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
          > > While we're picking on Jason ...
          > >
          > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
          > Line.
          > >
          > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
          > >
          > > Roger :-)
          > > derbyrm@s...
          > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
          > >
          > >
          > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
          > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
          > > >
          > > > 417lbs
        • Todd
          Believe it or not I m a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke up just before hitting
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 1 8:09 PM
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            Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands
            off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke
            up just before hitting one of the farthest oil islands. Turned around
            and headed back. Sure could use more sail on the down hill rides.
            Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
            maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
            about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
            are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
            is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
            experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
            leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
            has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
            and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
            increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
            or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
            standard rig?

            Todd

            I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look what
            do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


            up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
            > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than
            somewhat.
            > It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper
            and
            > making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have
            a hull
            > and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.
            >
            > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
            >
            > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
            > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
            main that
            > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
            ( boat
            > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
            >
            > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
            to control
            > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
            Do you
            > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
            the CE
            > aft and increases the weather helm?
            >
            > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
            change the
            > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
            >
            > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
            If you're
            > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
            centerboard raised
            > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
            of
            > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
            weather
            > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
            that "raising" the
            > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
            area
            > significantly.
            >
            > Main mast rake?
            >
            > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
            the
            > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
            was
            > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
            forward as
            > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
            back
            > when I had abs.
            >
            > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
            answers are
            > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
            Have fun.
            >
            > Roger
            > derbyrm@s...
            > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
            > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
            > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
            >
            >
            > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
            not
            > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
            helm
            > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
            > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
            seems
            > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
            the
            > > weather helm.
            > >
            > > How much leed would one need?
            > >
            > > Todd
            > >
            > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
            wrote:
            > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
            > > >
            > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
            > > Line.
            > > >
            > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
            > > >
            > > > Roger :-)
            > > > derbyrm@s...
            > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
            > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
            > > > >
            > > > > 417lbs
          • Jason Stancil
            Todd- Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know better than I. Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with more
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 1 8:26 PM
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              Todd-

              Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know
              better than I.

              Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with
              more control and it's almost a junk rig. Bolger is finishing up a
              sketch of the navigator with a larger mizzen and the main mast in a
              tabernacle out in front of the bow transom.....maybe a battened
              mizzen (heres hoping).

              just a thought, i'll post some scans when my blue tube arrives.

              Are those photos of the red and white micro your's?.....that's a
              nice one.

              Jason

              >The question
              > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
              tabernackle
              > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
              > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
              and
              > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
              the
              > standard rig?
            • Roger Derby
              I m just regurgitating what I ve read and tried, not passing judgement. My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it s tabernacle looks interesting because
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 1 9:44 PM
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                I'm just regurgitating what I've read and tried, not passing judgement.

                My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it's tabernacle looks
                interesting because the mast's foot is held into it with turnbuckles. Add a
                spacer inside before tightening the turnbuckles and you've changed the mast
                rake.

                When I was planning and building my copy of Badger, a J. Benford designed
                junk rig schooner featured in Annie Hill's great book "Voyaging on a Small
                Income," I read everything I could find on the junk rig. I like it! The
                bible for that one is Hassler and McCleod's "Practical Junk Rig." They
                include the procedure (in excruciating detail) for converting from more
                standard rigs. They also give some example rigs in the back of the book.

                If you get hold of a copy, skim thru it first as they seem to cover the same
                process several times and some explanations are clearer or more useful.
                (There's also a lot of great, non-junk rig stuff shown; e.g. mast sizing and
                construction, lightning protection, a conning dome and associated igloo-like
                dodger, etc.)

                Where they are talking of converting to a junk rig, they tend to keep the
                center of the sail plan in the same place as it was on the original rig
                IIRC. There's room to play here because there is (or can be) a line which
                adjusts how much of the sail is forward of the mast. The junk sail is often
                significantly larger than the sail it replaces because it's so easy to reef.

                I don't think I'd bother trying to change the calculated lead when going to
                a junk rig. The sail shapes are so different that it's apples and oranges.
                I'd try it and then trim it.

                > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                > what do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.

                It does look like fun. You'll get more area up high where it isn't becalmed
                by the waves as often, and you will start a lot of conversations.

                Sheeting is a problem with the junk rig. I think the scheme you show will
                interfere with the junk sail on the mizzen.

                I'd try eliminating sheet #3 and combining #1 & #2 with an euphroe so you
                have a single line to diddle. IIRC, they don't usually sheet the gaff or
                topmost battan. Your scheme will give better control of the sail's sag, but
                the winds are fairer aloft so that may not be needed.

                The Chinese often have two sets of sheets, port and starboard, on each sail,
                when the masts are too close together or the hull ends too soon.

                Without calculating the centers of the sails, it doesn't look like you've
                changed the CE for the main much at all. With the Chinese scheme of merging
                the many into a single sheet, reefing is automatic -- no extra lines needed.
                Just start the halyard, then tighten the sheet and the yard hauling parrel
                at your leisure. The pull of the lower elements of the sheet automatically
                holds the lower battans down where you want them, snuggled in their lazy
                jacks.

                Roger
                derbyrm@...
                derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>


                > Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed
                > hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island
                > fell asleep woke up just before hitting one of the farthest
                > oil islands. Turned around and headed back. Sure could
                > use more sail on the down hill rides.
                > Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
                > maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
                > about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
                > are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
                > is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
                > experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
                > leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
                > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
                > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
                > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
                > standard rig?
                >
                > Todd




                >
                >
                > up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                > > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more
                > > than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that
                > > exists only on paper and making sure it will not be too awful
                > > when built, but once you have a hull and rig, your feel under
                > > sail is a whole lot more useful.
                > >
                > > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
                > >
                > > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                > > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
                > main that
                > > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
                > ( boat
                > > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
                > >
                > > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
                > to control
                > > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
                > Do you
                > > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
                > the CE
                > > aft and increases the weather helm?
                > >
                > > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
                > change the
                > > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
                > >
                > > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
                > If you're
                > > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
                > centerboard raised
                > > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
                > of
                > > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
                > weather
                > > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
                > that "raising" the
                > > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
                > area
                > > significantly.
                > >
                > > Main mast rake?
                > >
                > > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
                > the
                > > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
                > was
                > > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
                > forward as
                > > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
                > back
                > > when I had abs.
                > >
                > > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
                > answers are
                > > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
                > Have fun.
                > >
                > > Roger
                > > derbyrm@s...
                > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
                > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                > > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
                > >
                > >
                > > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                > not
                > > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                > helm
                > > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                > > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                > seems
                > > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                > the
                > > > weather helm.
                > > >
                > > > How much leed would one need?
                > > >
                > > > Todd
                > > >
                > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
                > wrote:
                > > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                > > > >
                > > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                > > > Line.
                > > > >
                > > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                > > > >
                > > > > Roger :-)
                > > > > derbyrm@s...
                > > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                > > > >
                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                > > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 417lbs
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Peter Lenihan
                ... The question ... tabernackle ... and ... the ... Hi Todd, Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the beautiful sunny coast of Southern
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 2 2:18 AM
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                  The question
                  > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
                  tabernackle
                  > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                  > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
                  and
                  > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
                  the
                  > standard rig?
                  >
                  > Todd

                  Hi Todd,
                  Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the
                  beautiful sunny coast of Southern California,why would you need a
                  tabernacle for you mainmast anyway? Surely there can't be that many
                  low lying bridges to contend with :-)
                  As long as the center of effort for the junk mainsail remains
                  in the same postion as on the standard Micro rig,I think it fair to
                  conclude that handling the helm will be the same.
                  However,if you start shifting centers around without
                  considering other adjustments,then you could be setting yourself for
                  some disappointment.
                  Perhaps to get the best return on your proposed modification,it
                  would be best to write the designer for specs. best suited for your
                  needs?
                  Sorry I can't be more helpful :-(

                  Sincerely,

                  Peter Lenihan
                • Peter Lenihan
                  ... I also mean winds above 15knots not ... helm ... seems ... the ... Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown on the original Micro
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 2 2:32 AM
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                    I also mean winds above 15knots not
                    > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                    helm
                    > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                    > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                    seems
                    > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                    the
                    > weather helm.
                    > Todd

                    Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                    on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                    half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                    points shown on the original plans.
                    I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                    slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                    dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                    that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                    over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                    into full gale mode :-)

                    Sincerely,

                    Peter Lenihan
                  • Peter Lenihan
                    ... what ... Todd, I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look good. Lots
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 2 2:57 AM
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                      > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                      what
                      > do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


                      Todd,
                      I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the
                      proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look
                      good. Lots of great interior room too,I suspect :-)
                      Sadly, I don't think it will help much in putting some fun back
                      into your Micro since it is begining to get further away from the
                      clean simple elegance afforded by the original Micro design.
                      Nevertheless, your rendering certainly merits further study and
                      perhaps even a proper design work-up,on a fresh clean sheet of
                      drafting paper. Imagine this design about 20' to 24' loa,with full
                      standing headroom,enclosed head,leeboards,flat steel-plate on
                      outside of hull bottom for ballast and grounding protection.....!
                      You could call it the TODDPAN 24 and market it world wide from
                      the confines of your own floating office which,of course, would be
                      the prototype of this new design offering :-)
                      Now that sounds like good fun to me :-)


                      Sincerely,

                      Peter Lenihan
                    • pvanderwaart
                      ... In Bolgerland, Mizzen just for balance = yawl Mizzen provides drive = ketch Peter
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 2 6:55 AM
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                        > Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
                        > Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

                        In Bolgerland,

                        Mizzen just for balance = yawl
                        Mizzen provides drive = ketch

                        Peter
                      • dangonn@yahoo.com
                        Seems to me that s a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another reefing option for the conditions. I haven t suffered from too much
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 2 7:30 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another
                          reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much weather helm with my
                          Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite tight so that I can
                          sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                          Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather helm? The more
                          lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just curious, thanks.

                          Hope that helps,

                          Dan

                          Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> wrote:
                          > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                          > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                          > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                          > points shown on the original plans.
                          > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                          > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                          > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                          > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                          > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                          > into full gale mode :-)
                          >
                          > Sincerely,
                          >
                          > Peter Lenihan
                        • Bill Kreamer
                          Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead = more lee helm. -
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 2 1:10 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is
                            forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead =
                            more lee helm. - Bill

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: dangonn@... [mailto:dangonn@...]
                            Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:31
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

                            Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points
                            to give another
                            reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much
                            weather helm with my
                            Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite
                            tight so that I can
                            sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                            Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather
                            helm? The more
                            lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just
                            curious, thanks.

                            Hope that helps,

                            Dan

                            Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
                            wrote:
                            > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                            > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                            > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                            > points shown on the original plans.
                            > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                            > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                            > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                            > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                            > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                            > into full gale mode :-)
                            >
                            > Sincerely,
                            >
                            > Peter Lenihan



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