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Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

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  • Jason Stancil
    ... ketch.....nitpicky ... Yeah, yeah, i had a brain fart. Like i said mine is still a heap in the basement Mizzen behind the helm = yawl Mizzen forward of
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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      > For Jason: the Micro is a cat-yawl,not a cat-
      ketch.....nitpicky
      > perhaps but thats' how Bolger calls it:-)

      Yeah, yeah, i had a brain fart. Like i said mine is still a heap in
      the basement

      Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
      Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

      Jason

      How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up yet?
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... yet? Just swimmingly,if I do say so myself :-) Oh yes,the bottom is right side up,the 4 major bulkheads are up and the massive 8 X 32 (aprox.) side panels
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
        wrote:
        > How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up
        yet?

        Just swimmingly,if I do say so myself :-) Oh yes,the bottom is right
        side up,the 4 major bulkheads are up and the massive 8 X 32 (aprox.)
        side panels built and ready to be installed.......just gotta do a dry
        fit trial first.
        Pictures are in the wings waiting to be scanned before posting.Within
        a week I figure.
        Thanks for asking:-)

        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence.........
      • Roger Derby
        While we re picking on Jason ... Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water Line. Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds. Roger :-)
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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          While we're picking on Jason ...

          Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water Line.

          Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.

          Roger :-)
          derbyrm@...
          derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>


          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
          > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
          >
          > 417lbs
        • Todd
          I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm and when main sail
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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            I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
            below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
            and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
            weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
            the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
            weather helm.

            How much leed would one need?

            Todd

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
            > While we're picking on Jason ...
            >
            > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
            Line.
            >
            > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
            >
            > Roger :-)
            > derbyrm@s...
            > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
            >
            >
            > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
            > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
            > >
            > > 417lbs
          • dbaldnz
            You don t have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd? This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually. DonB ... not ... helm ...
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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              You don't have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd?
              This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually.
              DonB
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
              > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
              not
              > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
              helm
              > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
              > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
              seems
              > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
              the
              > weather helm.
              >
              > How much leed would one need?
              >
              > Todd
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
              > > While we're picking on Jason ...
              > >
              > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
              > Line.
              > >
              > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
              > >
              > > Roger :-)
              > > derbyrm@s...
              > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
              > >
              > >
              > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
              > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
              > > >
              > > > 417lbs
            • Roger Derby
              That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and making sure
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat.
                It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and
                making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have a hull
                and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.

                Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.

                How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed main that
                let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side ( boat
                heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.

                Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension to control
                the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy? Do you
                have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves the CE
                aft and increases the weather helm?

                Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will change the
                lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.

                On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance? If you're
                not beating to windward, you might be better off with the centerboard raised
                a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center of
                lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the weather
                helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible that "raising" the
                CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed area
                significantly.

                Main mast rake?

                The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is the
                Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat," was
                right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far forward as
                you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was back
                when I had abs.

                The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the answers are
                probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with. Have fun.

                Roger
                derbyrm@...
                derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>
                To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?


                > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
                > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
                > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
                > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
                > weather helm.
                >
                > How much leed would one need?
                >
                > Todd
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                > >
                > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                > Line.
                > >
                > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                > >
                > > Roger :-)
                > > derbyrm@s...
                > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                > >
                > >
                > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                > > >
                > > > 417lbs
              • Todd
                Believe it or not I m a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke up just before hitting
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                  Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands
                  off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke
                  up just before hitting one of the farthest oil islands. Turned around
                  and headed back. Sure could use more sail on the down hill rides.
                  Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
                  maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
                  about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
                  are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
                  is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
                  experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
                  leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
                  has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
                  and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                  increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
                  or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
                  standard rig?

                  Todd

                  I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look what
                  do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


                  up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                  > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than
                  somewhat.
                  > It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper
                  and
                  > making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have
                  a hull
                  > and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.
                  >
                  > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
                  >
                  > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                  > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
                  main that
                  > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
                  ( boat
                  > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
                  >
                  > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
                  to control
                  > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
                  Do you
                  > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
                  the CE
                  > aft and increases the weather helm?
                  >
                  > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
                  change the
                  > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
                  >
                  > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
                  If you're
                  > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
                  centerboard raised
                  > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
                  of
                  > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
                  weather
                  > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
                  that "raising" the
                  > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
                  area
                  > significantly.
                  >
                  > Main mast rake?
                  >
                  > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
                  the
                  > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
                  was
                  > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
                  forward as
                  > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
                  back
                  > when I had abs.
                  >
                  > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
                  answers are
                  > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
                  Have fun.
                  >
                  > Roger
                  > derbyrm@s...
                  > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
                  > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
                  >
                  >
                  > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                  not
                  > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                  helm
                  > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                  > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                  seems
                  > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                  the
                  > > weather helm.
                  > >
                  > > How much leed would one need?
                  > >
                  > > Todd
                  > >
                  > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
                  wrote:
                  > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                  > > >
                  > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                  > > Line.
                  > > >
                  > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                  > > >
                  > > > Roger :-)
                  > > > derbyrm@s...
                  > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                  > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 417lbs
                • Jason Stancil
                  Todd- Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know better than I. Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with more
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                    Todd-

                    Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know
                    better than I.

                    Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with
                    more control and it's almost a junk rig. Bolger is finishing up a
                    sketch of the navigator with a larger mizzen and the main mast in a
                    tabernacle out in front of the bow transom.....maybe a battened
                    mizzen (heres hoping).

                    just a thought, i'll post some scans when my blue tube arrives.

                    Are those photos of the red and white micro your's?.....that's a
                    nice one.

                    Jason

                    >The question
                    > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
                    tabernackle
                    > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                    > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
                    and
                    > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
                    the
                    > standard rig?
                  • Roger Derby
                    I m just regurgitating what I ve read and tried, not passing judgement. My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it s tabernacle looks interesting because
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                      I'm just regurgitating what I've read and tried, not passing judgement.

                      My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it's tabernacle looks
                      interesting because the mast's foot is held into it with turnbuckles. Add a
                      spacer inside before tightening the turnbuckles and you've changed the mast
                      rake.

                      When I was planning and building my copy of Badger, a J. Benford designed
                      junk rig schooner featured in Annie Hill's great book "Voyaging on a Small
                      Income," I read everything I could find on the junk rig. I like it! The
                      bible for that one is Hassler and McCleod's "Practical Junk Rig." They
                      include the procedure (in excruciating detail) for converting from more
                      standard rigs. They also give some example rigs in the back of the book.

                      If you get hold of a copy, skim thru it first as they seem to cover the same
                      process several times and some explanations are clearer or more useful.
                      (There's also a lot of great, non-junk rig stuff shown; e.g. mast sizing and
                      construction, lightning protection, a conning dome and associated igloo-like
                      dodger, etc.)

                      Where they are talking of converting to a junk rig, they tend to keep the
                      center of the sail plan in the same place as it was on the original rig
                      IIRC. There's room to play here because there is (or can be) a line which
                      adjusts how much of the sail is forward of the mast. The junk sail is often
                      significantly larger than the sail it replaces because it's so easy to reef.

                      I don't think I'd bother trying to change the calculated lead when going to
                      a junk rig. The sail shapes are so different that it's apples and oranges.
                      I'd try it and then trim it.

                      > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                      > what do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.

                      It does look like fun. You'll get more area up high where it isn't becalmed
                      by the waves as often, and you will start a lot of conversations.

                      Sheeting is a problem with the junk rig. I think the scheme you show will
                      interfere with the junk sail on the mizzen.

                      I'd try eliminating sheet #3 and combining #1 & #2 with an euphroe so you
                      have a single line to diddle. IIRC, they don't usually sheet the gaff or
                      topmost battan. Your scheme will give better control of the sail's sag, but
                      the winds are fairer aloft so that may not be needed.

                      The Chinese often have two sets of sheets, port and starboard, on each sail,
                      when the masts are too close together or the hull ends too soon.

                      Without calculating the centers of the sails, it doesn't look like you've
                      changed the CE for the main much at all. With the Chinese scheme of merging
                      the many into a single sheet, reefing is automatic -- no extra lines needed.
                      Just start the halyard, then tighten the sheet and the yard hauling parrel
                      at your leisure. The pull of the lower elements of the sheet automatically
                      holds the lower battans down where you want them, snuggled in their lazy
                      jacks.

                      Roger
                      derbyrm@...
                      derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>


                      > Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed
                      > hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island
                      > fell asleep woke up just before hitting one of the farthest
                      > oil islands. Turned around and headed back. Sure could
                      > use more sail on the down hill rides.
                      > Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
                      > maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
                      > about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
                      > are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
                      > is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
                      > experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
                      > leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
                      > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
                      > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                      > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
                      > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
                      > standard rig?
                      >
                      > Todd




                      >
                      >
                      > up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                      > > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more
                      > > than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that
                      > > exists only on paper and making sure it will not be too awful
                      > > when built, but once you have a hull and rig, your feel under
                      > > sail is a whole lot more useful.
                      > >
                      > > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
                      > >
                      > > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                      > > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
                      > main that
                      > > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
                      > ( boat
                      > > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
                      > >
                      > > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
                      > to control
                      > > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
                      > Do you
                      > > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
                      > the CE
                      > > aft and increases the weather helm?
                      > >
                      > > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
                      > change the
                      > > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
                      > >
                      > > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
                      > If you're
                      > > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
                      > centerboard raised
                      > > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
                      > of
                      > > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
                      > weather
                      > > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
                      > that "raising" the
                      > > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
                      > area
                      > > significantly.
                      > >
                      > > Main mast rake?
                      > >
                      > > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
                      > the
                      > > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
                      > was
                      > > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
                      > forward as
                      > > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
                      > back
                      > > when I had abs.
                      > >
                      > > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
                      > answers are
                      > > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
                      > Have fun.
                      > >
                      > > Roger
                      > > derbyrm@s...
                      > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
                      > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                      > > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                      > not
                      > > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                      > helm
                      > > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                      > > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                      > seems
                      > > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                      > the
                      > > > weather helm.
                      > > >
                      > > > How much leed would one need?
                      > > >
                      > > > Todd
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                      > > > Line.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Roger :-)
                      > > > > derbyrm@s...
                      > > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                      > > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 417lbs
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Bolger rules!!!
                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
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                      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                      (978) 282-1349
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                      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      >
                    • Peter Lenihan
                      ... The question ... tabernackle ... and ... the ... Hi Todd, Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the beautiful sunny coast of Southern
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                        The question
                        > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
                        tabernackle
                        > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                        > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
                        and
                        > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
                        the
                        > standard rig?
                        >
                        > Todd

                        Hi Todd,
                        Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the
                        beautiful sunny coast of Southern California,why would you need a
                        tabernacle for you mainmast anyway? Surely there can't be that many
                        low lying bridges to contend with :-)
                        As long as the center of effort for the junk mainsail remains
                        in the same postion as on the standard Micro rig,I think it fair to
                        conclude that handling the helm will be the same.
                        However,if you start shifting centers around without
                        considering other adjustments,then you could be setting yourself for
                        some disappointment.
                        Perhaps to get the best return on your proposed modification,it
                        would be best to write the designer for specs. best suited for your
                        needs?
                        Sorry I can't be more helpful :-(

                        Sincerely,

                        Peter Lenihan
                      • Peter Lenihan
                        ... I also mean winds above 15knots not ... helm ... seems ... the ... Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown on the original Micro
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                          I also mean winds above 15knots not
                          > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                          helm
                          > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                          > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                          seems
                          > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                          the
                          > weather helm.
                          > Todd

                          Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                          on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                          half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                          points shown on the original plans.
                          I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                          slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                          dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                          that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                          over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                          into full gale mode :-)

                          Sincerely,

                          Peter Lenihan
                        • Peter Lenihan
                          ... what ... Todd, I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look good. Lots
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                            > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                            what
                            > do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


                            Todd,
                            I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the
                            proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look
                            good. Lots of great interior room too,I suspect :-)
                            Sadly, I don't think it will help much in putting some fun back
                            into your Micro since it is begining to get further away from the
                            clean simple elegance afforded by the original Micro design.
                            Nevertheless, your rendering certainly merits further study and
                            perhaps even a proper design work-up,on a fresh clean sheet of
                            drafting paper. Imagine this design about 20' to 24' loa,with full
                            standing headroom,enclosed head,leeboards,flat steel-plate on
                            outside of hull bottom for ballast and grounding protection.....!
                            You could call it the TODDPAN 24 and market it world wide from
                            the confines of your own floating office which,of course, would be
                            the prototype of this new design offering :-)
                            Now that sounds like good fun to me :-)


                            Sincerely,

                            Peter Lenihan
                          • pvanderwaart
                            ... In Bolgerland, Mizzen just for balance = yawl Mizzen provides drive = ketch Peter
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
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                              > Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
                              > Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

                              In Bolgerland,

                              Mizzen just for balance = yawl
                              Mizzen provides drive = ketch

                              Peter
                            • dangonn@yahoo.com
                              Seems to me that s a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another reefing option for the conditions. I haven t suffered from too much
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another
                                reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much weather helm with my
                                Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite tight so that I can
                                sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                                Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather helm? The more
                                lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just curious, thanks.

                                Hope that helps,

                                Dan

                                Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> wrote:
                                > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                                > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                                > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                                > points shown on the original plans.
                                > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                                > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                                > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                                > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                                > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                                > into full gale mode :-)
                                >
                                > Sincerely,
                                >
                                > Peter Lenihan
                              • Bill Kreamer
                                Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead = more lee helm. -
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
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                                  Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is
                                  forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead =
                                  more lee helm. - Bill

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: dangonn@... [mailto:dangonn@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:31
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

                                  Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points
                                  to give another
                                  reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much
                                  weather helm with my
                                  Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite
                                  tight so that I can
                                  sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                                  Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather
                                  helm? The more
                                  lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just
                                  curious, thanks.

                                  Hope that helps,

                                  Dan

                                  Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                                  > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                                  > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                                  > points shown on the original plans.
                                  > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                                  > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                                  > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                                  > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                                  > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                                  > into full gale mode :-)
                                  >
                                  > Sincerely,
                                  >
                                  > Peter Lenihan



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