Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

Expand Messages
  • Jason Stancil
    ... 417lbs I noticed ... Mine is nt even built yet and i am unfamilar with the cat ketch, so i could be totally wrong you know better than me......but, you may
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
      > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?

      417lbs

      I noticed
      > when the wind comes up to a steady 15 knots under full sails the
      > tiller gets really heavy even with the mizzen doused. Wouldn't it
      > help to move the main mast foward or Maybe a different sail
      > configuration lug or junk to move the sail more foward with out
      > having to reef and slow down?

      Mine is'nt even built yet and i am unfamilar with the cat ketch, so
      i could be totally wrong you know better than me......but, you may
      be striking the mizzen a bit early. I believe it's there to ease the
      helm produced by having all the sail forward. I would think it would
      be better to reef the main first. If the wind is strong enough for a
      reef it ought to be running hull speed regardless.

      If you saw that micro for sale the other day.....posted by
      shorty....it had a balanced lug, with the mast in a tabernacle up
      against the front bulkhead. The lug's center of effort is forward of
      the sprit so the mast would have to come back to retain balance.


      > Also thinking instead of the navigator cabin how about a sampan
      aft
      > cabin on the micro. I was thinking of recutting the sheer and
      > extending the sheer aft 18'' or so and adding some rake to the
      stern.
      > Then build the cabin from the stern foward. But still end up
      sitting
      > about where you would with the navigator cabin. End up with a
      micro
      > Sampan.

      sounds like a great pelican, would be interesting.


      Jason
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... Hi Todd, 10 to 15 knots is PERFECT sailing air for the Micro! As for your helm problem,alot will be solved by not dousing the mizzen.It acts in many ways
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
        Hi Todd,

        10 to 15 knots is PERFECT sailing air for the Micro! As for
        your helm problem,alot will be solved by not dousing the mizzen.It
        acts in many ways as a wind rudder but,more importantly,to give back
        what essentially was removed from the rudder(in area) when compared
        to a traditional catboat with its' "barn door" rudder.
        When the winds are much above 15 knots,you should ensure that;a)
        the mizzen is sheeted in tight and the snotter snugged up tight too,
        and b) that the mainsail snotter is also drawn up tight for a really
        flat sail. If those conditions make you feel a bit un-easy or simply
        difficult to hold a beer and steer at the same time,then a reef in
        the mainsail will return things to a happy sailing stance conducive
        to un-laboured relaxation :-)
        For Jason: the Micro is a cat-yawl,not a cat-ketch.....nitpicky
        perhaps but thats' how Bolger calls it:-)

        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan,ex Micro owner/builder reduced to a busy boatbuilder
        with a fierce thirst for cold beverages various..........
      • Jason Stancil
        ... ketch.....nitpicky ... Yeah, yeah, i had a brain fart. Like i said mine is still a heap in the basement Mizzen behind the helm = yawl Mizzen forward of
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          > For Jason: the Micro is a cat-yawl,not a cat-
          ketch.....nitpicky
          > perhaps but thats' how Bolger calls it:-)

          Yeah, yeah, i had a brain fart. Like i said mine is still a heap in
          the basement

          Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
          Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

          Jason

          How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up yet?
        • Peter Lenihan
          ... yet? Just swimmingly,if I do say so myself :-) Oh yes,the bottom is right side up,the 4 major bulkheads are up and the massive 8 X 32 (aprox.) side panels
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
            wrote:
            > How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up
            yet?

            Just swimmingly,if I do say so myself :-) Oh yes,the bottom is right
            side up,the 4 major bulkheads are up and the massive 8 X 32 (aprox.)
            side panels built and ready to be installed.......just gotta do a dry
            fit trial first.
            Pictures are in the wings waiting to be scanned before posting.Within
            a week I figure.
            Thanks for asking:-)

            Sincerely,

            Peter Lenihan,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence.........
          • Roger Derby
            While we re picking on Jason ... Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water Line. Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds. Roger :-)
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              While we're picking on Jason ...

              Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water Line.

              Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.

              Roger :-)
              derbyrm@...
              derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>


              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
              > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
              >
              > 417lbs
            • Todd
              I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm and when main sail
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
                below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
                and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
                the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
                weather helm.

                How much leed would one need?

                Todd

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                > While we're picking on Jason ...
                >
                > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                Line.
                >
                > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                >
                > Roger :-)
                > derbyrm@s...
                > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                >
                >
                > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                > >
                > > 417lbs
              • dbaldnz
                You don t have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd? This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually. DonB ... not ... helm ...
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  You don't have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd?
                  This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually.
                  DonB
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                  > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                  not
                  > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                  helm
                  > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                  > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                  seems
                  > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                  the
                  > weather helm.
                  >
                  > How much leed would one need?
                  >
                  > Todd
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                  > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                  > >
                  > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                  > Line.
                  > >
                  > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                  > >
                  > > Roger :-)
                  > > derbyrm@s...
                  > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                  > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                  > > >
                  > > > 417lbs
                • Roger Derby
                  That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and making sure
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat.
                    It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and
                    making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have a hull
                    and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.

                    Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.

                    How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                    objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed main that
                    let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side ( boat
                    heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.

                    Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension to control
                    the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy? Do you
                    have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves the CE
                    aft and increases the weather helm?

                    Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will change the
                    lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.

                    On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance? If you're
                    not beating to windward, you might be better off with the centerboard raised
                    a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center of
                    lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the weather
                    helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible that "raising" the
                    CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed area
                    significantly.

                    Main mast rake?

                    The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is the
                    Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat," was
                    right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far forward as
                    you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was back
                    when I had abs.

                    The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the answers are
                    probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with. Have fun.

                    Roger
                    derbyrm@...
                    derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>
                    To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?


                    > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
                    > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
                    > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                    > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
                    > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
                    > weather helm.
                    >
                    > How much leed would one need?
                    >
                    > Todd
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                    > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                    > >
                    > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                    > Line.
                    > >
                    > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                    > >
                    > > Roger :-)
                    > > derbyrm@s...
                    > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                    > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                    > > >
                    > > > 417lbs
                  • Todd
                    Believe it or not I m a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke up just before hitting
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands
                      off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke
                      up just before hitting one of the farthest oil islands. Turned around
                      and headed back. Sure could use more sail on the down hill rides.
                      Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
                      maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
                      about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
                      are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
                      is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
                      experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
                      leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
                      has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
                      and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                      increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
                      or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
                      standard rig?

                      Todd

                      I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look what
                      do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


                      up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                      > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than
                      somewhat.
                      > It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper
                      and
                      > making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have
                      a hull
                      > and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.
                      >
                      > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
                      >
                      > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                      > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
                      main that
                      > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
                      ( boat
                      > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
                      >
                      > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
                      to control
                      > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
                      Do you
                      > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
                      the CE
                      > aft and increases the weather helm?
                      >
                      > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
                      change the
                      > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
                      >
                      > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
                      If you're
                      > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
                      centerboard raised
                      > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
                      of
                      > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
                      weather
                      > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
                      that "raising" the
                      > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
                      area
                      > significantly.
                      >
                      > Main mast rake?
                      >
                      > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
                      the
                      > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
                      was
                      > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
                      forward as
                      > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
                      back
                      > when I had abs.
                      >
                      > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
                      answers are
                      > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
                      Have fun.
                      >
                      > Roger
                      > derbyrm@s...
                      > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
                      > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                      > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
                      >
                      >
                      > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                      not
                      > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                      helm
                      > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                      > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                      seems
                      > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                      the
                      > > weather helm.
                      > >
                      > > How much leed would one need?
                      > >
                      > > Todd
                      > >
                      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                      > > >
                      > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                      > > Line.
                      > > >
                      > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                      > > >
                      > > > Roger :-)
                      > > > derbyrm@s...
                      > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                      > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > 417lbs
                    • Jason Stancil
                      Todd- Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know better than I. Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with more
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Todd-

                        Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know
                        better than I.

                        Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with
                        more control and it's almost a junk rig. Bolger is finishing up a
                        sketch of the navigator with a larger mizzen and the main mast in a
                        tabernacle out in front of the bow transom.....maybe a battened
                        mizzen (heres hoping).

                        just a thought, i'll post some scans when my blue tube arrives.

                        Are those photos of the red and white micro your's?.....that's a
                        nice one.

                        Jason

                        >The question
                        > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
                        tabernackle
                        > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                        > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
                        and
                        > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
                        the
                        > standard rig?
                      • Roger Derby
                        I m just regurgitating what I ve read and tried, not passing judgement. My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it s tabernacle looks interesting because
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I'm just regurgitating what I've read and tried, not passing judgement.

                          My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it's tabernacle looks
                          interesting because the mast's foot is held into it with turnbuckles. Add a
                          spacer inside before tightening the turnbuckles and you've changed the mast
                          rake.

                          When I was planning and building my copy of Badger, a J. Benford designed
                          junk rig schooner featured in Annie Hill's great book "Voyaging on a Small
                          Income," I read everything I could find on the junk rig. I like it! The
                          bible for that one is Hassler and McCleod's "Practical Junk Rig." They
                          include the procedure (in excruciating detail) for converting from more
                          standard rigs. They also give some example rigs in the back of the book.

                          If you get hold of a copy, skim thru it first as they seem to cover the same
                          process several times and some explanations are clearer or more useful.
                          (There's also a lot of great, non-junk rig stuff shown; e.g. mast sizing and
                          construction, lightning protection, a conning dome and associated igloo-like
                          dodger, etc.)

                          Where they are talking of converting to a junk rig, they tend to keep the
                          center of the sail plan in the same place as it was on the original rig
                          IIRC. There's room to play here because there is (or can be) a line which
                          adjusts how much of the sail is forward of the mast. The junk sail is often
                          significantly larger than the sail it replaces because it's so easy to reef.

                          I don't think I'd bother trying to change the calculated lead when going to
                          a junk rig. The sail shapes are so different that it's apples and oranges.
                          I'd try it and then trim it.

                          > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                          > what do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.

                          It does look like fun. You'll get more area up high where it isn't becalmed
                          by the waves as often, and you will start a lot of conversations.

                          Sheeting is a problem with the junk rig. I think the scheme you show will
                          interfere with the junk sail on the mizzen.

                          I'd try eliminating sheet #3 and combining #1 & #2 with an euphroe so you
                          have a single line to diddle. IIRC, they don't usually sheet the gaff or
                          topmost battan. Your scheme will give better control of the sail's sag, but
                          the winds are fairer aloft so that may not be needed.

                          The Chinese often have two sets of sheets, port and starboard, on each sail,
                          when the masts are too close together or the hull ends too soon.

                          Without calculating the centers of the sails, it doesn't look like you've
                          changed the CE for the main much at all. With the Chinese scheme of merging
                          the many into a single sheet, reefing is automatic -- no extra lines needed.
                          Just start the halyard, then tighten the sheet and the yard hauling parrel
                          at your leisure. The pull of the lower elements of the sheet automatically
                          holds the lower battans down where you want them, snuggled in their lazy
                          jacks.

                          Roger
                          derbyrm@...
                          derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>


                          > Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed
                          > hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island
                          > fell asleep woke up just before hitting one of the farthest
                          > oil islands. Turned around and headed back. Sure could
                          > use more sail on the down hill rides.
                          > Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
                          > maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
                          > about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
                          > are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
                          > is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
                          > experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
                          > leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
                          > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
                          > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                          > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
                          > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
                          > standard rig?
                          >
                          > Todd




                          >
                          >
                          > up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                          > > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more
                          > > than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that
                          > > exists only on paper and making sure it will not be too awful
                          > > when built, but once you have a hull and rig, your feel under
                          > > sail is a whole lot more useful.
                          > >
                          > > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
                          > >
                          > > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                          > > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
                          > main that
                          > > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
                          > ( boat
                          > > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
                          > >
                          > > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
                          > to control
                          > > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
                          > Do you
                          > > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
                          > the CE
                          > > aft and increases the weather helm?
                          > >
                          > > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
                          > change the
                          > > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
                          > >
                          > > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
                          > If you're
                          > > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
                          > centerboard raised
                          > > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
                          > of
                          > > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
                          > weather
                          > > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
                          > that "raising" the
                          > > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
                          > area
                          > > significantly.
                          > >
                          > > Main mast rake?
                          > >
                          > > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
                          > the
                          > > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
                          > was
                          > > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
                          > forward as
                          > > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
                          > back
                          > > when I had abs.
                          > >
                          > > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
                          > answers are
                          > > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
                          > Have fun.
                          > >
                          > > Roger
                          > > derbyrm@s...
                          > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
                          > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                          > > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                          > not
                          > > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                          > helm
                          > > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                          > > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                          > seems
                          > > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                          > the
                          > > > weather helm.
                          > > >
                          > > > How much leed would one need?
                          > > >
                          > > > Todd
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                          > > > Line.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Roger :-)
                          > > > > derbyrm@s...
                          > > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 417lbs
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                          > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                          (978) 282-1349
                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Peter Lenihan
                          ... The question ... tabernackle ... and ... the ... Hi Todd, Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the beautiful sunny coast of Southern
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                            The question
                            > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
                            tabernackle
                            > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                            > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
                            and
                            > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
                            the
                            > standard rig?
                            >
                            > Todd

                            Hi Todd,
                            Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the
                            beautiful sunny coast of Southern California,why would you need a
                            tabernacle for you mainmast anyway? Surely there can't be that many
                            low lying bridges to contend with :-)
                            As long as the center of effort for the junk mainsail remains
                            in the same postion as on the standard Micro rig,I think it fair to
                            conclude that handling the helm will be the same.
                            However,if you start shifting centers around without
                            considering other adjustments,then you could be setting yourself for
                            some disappointment.
                            Perhaps to get the best return on your proposed modification,it
                            would be best to write the designer for specs. best suited for your
                            needs?
                            Sorry I can't be more helpful :-(

                            Sincerely,

                            Peter Lenihan
                          • Peter Lenihan
                            ... I also mean winds above 15knots not ... helm ... seems ... the ... Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown on the original Micro
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                              I also mean winds above 15knots not
                              > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                              helm
                              > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                              > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                              seems
                              > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                              the
                              > weather helm.
                              > Todd

                              Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                              on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                              half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                              points shown on the original plans.
                              I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                              slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                              dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                              that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                              over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                              into full gale mode :-)

                              Sincerely,

                              Peter Lenihan
                            • Peter Lenihan
                              ... what ... Todd, I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look good. Lots
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                                > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                                what
                                > do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


                                Todd,
                                I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the
                                proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look
                                good. Lots of great interior room too,I suspect :-)
                                Sadly, I don't think it will help much in putting some fun back
                                into your Micro since it is begining to get further away from the
                                clean simple elegance afforded by the original Micro design.
                                Nevertheless, your rendering certainly merits further study and
                                perhaps even a proper design work-up,on a fresh clean sheet of
                                drafting paper. Imagine this design about 20' to 24' loa,with full
                                standing headroom,enclosed head,leeboards,flat steel-plate on
                                outside of hull bottom for ballast and grounding protection.....!
                                You could call it the TODDPAN 24 and market it world wide from
                                the confines of your own floating office which,of course, would be
                                the prototype of this new design offering :-)
                                Now that sounds like good fun to me :-)


                                Sincerely,

                                Peter Lenihan
                              • pvanderwaart
                                ... In Bolgerland, Mizzen just for balance = yawl Mizzen provides drive = ketch Peter
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
                                  > Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

                                  In Bolgerland,

                                  Mizzen just for balance = yawl
                                  Mizzen provides drive = ketch

                                  Peter
                                • dangonn@yahoo.com
                                  Seems to me that s a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another reefing option for the conditions. I haven t suffered from too much
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another
                                    reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much weather helm with my
                                    Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite tight so that I can
                                    sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                                    Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather helm? The more
                                    lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just curious, thanks.

                                    Hope that helps,

                                    Dan

                                    Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> wrote:
                                    > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                                    > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                                    > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                                    > points shown on the original plans.
                                    > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                                    > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                                    > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                                    > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                                    > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                                    > into full gale mode :-)
                                    >
                                    > Sincerely,
                                    >
                                    > Peter Lenihan
                                  • Bill Kreamer
                                    Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead = more lee helm. -
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is
                                      forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead =
                                      more lee helm. - Bill

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: dangonn@... [mailto:dangonn@...]
                                      Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:31
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

                                      Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points
                                      to give another
                                      reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much
                                      weather helm with my
                                      Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite
                                      tight so that I can
                                      sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                                      Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather
                                      helm? The more
                                      lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just
                                      curious, thanks.

                                      Hope that helps,

                                      Dan

                                      Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                                      > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                                      > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                                      > points shown on the original plans.
                                      > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                                      > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                                      > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                                      > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                                      > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                                      > into full gale mode :-)
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      >
                                      > Peter Lenihan



                                      Bolger rules!!!
                                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                      - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                      - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                                      Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com





                                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


                                      ADVERTISEMENT

                                      <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129mqos5m/M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/
                                      D=groups/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1088865053/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13
                                      04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as
                                      p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002%20>


                                      <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_06150
                                      4.jpg>


                                      <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/D=group
                                      s/S=:HM/A=2196952/rand=166634919>

                                      _____

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/

                                      * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                                      * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.