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How much sail lead in a micro?

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  • Todd
    So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig? I noticed when the wind comes up to a steady 15 knots under full sails the tiller gets really heavy
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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      So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig? I noticed
      when the wind comes up to a steady 15 knots under full sails the
      tiller gets really heavy even with the mizzen doused. Wouldn't it
      help to move the main mast foward or Maybe a different sail
      configuration lug or junk to move the sail more foward with out
      having to reef and slow down?

      Also thinking instead of the navigator cabin how about a sampan aft
      cabin on the micro. I was thinking of recutting the sheer and
      extending the sheer aft 18'' or so and adding some rake to the stern.
      Then build the cabin from the stern foward. But still end up sitting
      about where you would with the navigator cabin. End up with a micro
      Sampan.

      Todd
    • Jason Stancil
      ... 417lbs I noticed ... Mine is nt even built yet and i am unfamilar with the cat ketch, so i could be totally wrong you know better than me......but, you may
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
        > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?

        417lbs

        I noticed
        > when the wind comes up to a steady 15 knots under full sails the
        > tiller gets really heavy even with the mizzen doused. Wouldn't it
        > help to move the main mast foward or Maybe a different sail
        > configuration lug or junk to move the sail more foward with out
        > having to reef and slow down?

        Mine is'nt even built yet and i am unfamilar with the cat ketch, so
        i could be totally wrong you know better than me......but, you may
        be striking the mizzen a bit early. I believe it's there to ease the
        helm produced by having all the sail forward. I would think it would
        be better to reef the main first. If the wind is strong enough for a
        reef it ought to be running hull speed regardless.

        If you saw that micro for sale the other day.....posted by
        shorty....it had a balanced lug, with the mast in a tabernacle up
        against the front bulkhead. The lug's center of effort is forward of
        the sprit so the mast would have to come back to retain balance.


        > Also thinking instead of the navigator cabin how about a sampan
        aft
        > cabin on the micro. I was thinking of recutting the sheer and
        > extending the sheer aft 18'' or so and adding some rake to the
        stern.
        > Then build the cabin from the stern foward. But still end up
        sitting
        > about where you would with the navigator cabin. End up with a
        micro
        > Sampan.

        sounds like a great pelican, would be interesting.


        Jason
      • Peter Lenihan
        ... Hi Todd, 10 to 15 knots is PERFECT sailing air for the Micro! As for your helm problem,alot will be solved by not dousing the mizzen.It acts in many ways
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
          Hi Todd,

          10 to 15 knots is PERFECT sailing air for the Micro! As for
          your helm problem,alot will be solved by not dousing the mizzen.It
          acts in many ways as a wind rudder but,more importantly,to give back
          what essentially was removed from the rudder(in area) when compared
          to a traditional catboat with its' "barn door" rudder.
          When the winds are much above 15 knots,you should ensure that;a)
          the mizzen is sheeted in tight and the snotter snugged up tight too,
          and b) that the mainsail snotter is also drawn up tight for a really
          flat sail. If those conditions make you feel a bit un-easy or simply
          difficult to hold a beer and steer at the same time,then a reef in
          the mainsail will return things to a happy sailing stance conducive
          to un-laboured relaxation :-)
          For Jason: the Micro is a cat-yawl,not a cat-ketch.....nitpicky
          perhaps but thats' how Bolger calls it:-)

          Sincerely,

          Peter Lenihan,ex Micro owner/builder reduced to a busy boatbuilder
          with a fierce thirst for cold beverages various..........
        • Jason Stancil
          ... ketch.....nitpicky ... Yeah, yeah, i had a brain fart. Like i said mine is still a heap in the basement Mizzen behind the helm = yawl Mizzen forward of
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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            > For Jason: the Micro is a cat-yawl,not a cat-
            ketch.....nitpicky
            > perhaps but thats' how Bolger calls it:-)

            Yeah, yeah, i had a brain fart. Like i said mine is still a heap in
            the basement

            Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
            Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

            Jason

            How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up yet?
          • Peter Lenihan
            ... yet? Just swimmingly,if I do say so myself :-) Oh yes,the bottom is right side up,the 4 major bulkheads are up and the massive 8 X 32 (aprox.) side panels
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
              wrote:
              > How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up
              yet?

              Just swimmingly,if I do say so myself :-) Oh yes,the bottom is right
              side up,the 4 major bulkheads are up and the massive 8 X 32 (aprox.)
              side panels built and ready to be installed.......just gotta do a dry
              fit trial first.
              Pictures are in the wings waiting to be scanned before posting.Within
              a week I figure.
              Thanks for asking:-)

              Sincerely,

              Peter Lenihan,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence.........
            • Roger Derby
              While we re picking on Jason ... Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water Line. Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds. Roger :-)
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                While we're picking on Jason ...

                Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water Line.

                Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.

                Roger :-)
                derbyrm@...
                derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>


                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                >
                > 417lbs
              • Todd
                I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm and when main sail
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                  I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
                  below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
                  and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                  weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
                  the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
                  weather helm.

                  How much leed would one need?

                  Todd

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                  > While we're picking on Jason ...
                  >
                  > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                  Line.
                  >
                  > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                  >
                  > Roger :-)
                  > derbyrm@s...
                  > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                  >
                  >
                  > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                  > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                  > >
                  > > 417lbs
                • dbaldnz
                  You don t have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd? This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually. DonB ... not ... helm ...
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                    You don't have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd?
                    This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually.
                    DonB
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                    > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                    not
                    > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                    helm
                    > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                    > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                    seems
                    > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                    the
                    > weather helm.
                    >
                    > How much leed would one need?
                    >
                    > Todd
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                    > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                    > >
                    > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                    > Line.
                    > >
                    > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                    > >
                    > > Roger :-)
                    > > derbyrm@s...
                    > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                    > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                    > > >
                    > > > 417lbs
                  • Roger Derby
                    That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and making sure
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                      That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat.
                      It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and
                      making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have a hull
                      and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.

                      Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.

                      How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                      objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed main that
                      let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side ( boat
                      heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.

                      Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension to control
                      the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy? Do you
                      have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves the CE
                      aft and increases the weather helm?

                      Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will change the
                      lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.

                      On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance? If you're
                      not beating to windward, you might be better off with the centerboard raised
                      a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center of
                      lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the weather
                      helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible that "raising" the
                      CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed area
                      significantly.

                      Main mast rake?

                      The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is the
                      Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat," was
                      right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far forward as
                      you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was back
                      when I had abs.

                      The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the answers are
                      probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with. Have fun.

                      Roger
                      derbyrm@...
                      derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>
                      To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?


                      > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
                      > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
                      > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                      > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
                      > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
                      > weather helm.
                      >
                      > How much leed would one need?
                      >
                      > Todd
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                      > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                      > >
                      > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                      > Line.
                      > >
                      > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                      > >
                      > > Roger :-)
                      > > derbyrm@s...
                      > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                      > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                      > > >
                      > > > 417lbs
                    • Todd
                      Believe it or not I m a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke up just before hitting
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                        Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands
                        off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke
                        up just before hitting one of the farthest oil islands. Turned around
                        and headed back. Sure could use more sail on the down hill rides.
                        Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
                        maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
                        about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
                        are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
                        is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
                        experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
                        leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
                        has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
                        and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                        increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
                        or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
                        standard rig?

                        Todd

                        I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look what
                        do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


                        up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                        > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than
                        somewhat.
                        > It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper
                        and
                        > making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have
                        a hull
                        > and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.
                        >
                        > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
                        >
                        > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                        > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
                        main that
                        > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
                        ( boat
                        > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
                        >
                        > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
                        to control
                        > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
                        Do you
                        > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
                        the CE
                        > aft and increases the weather helm?
                        >
                        > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
                        change the
                        > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
                        >
                        > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
                        If you're
                        > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
                        centerboard raised
                        > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
                        of
                        > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
                        weather
                        > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
                        that "raising" the
                        > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
                        area
                        > significantly.
                        >
                        > Main mast rake?
                        >
                        > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
                        the
                        > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
                        was
                        > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
                        forward as
                        > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
                        back
                        > when I had abs.
                        >
                        > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
                        answers are
                        > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
                        Have fun.
                        >
                        > Roger
                        > derbyrm@s...
                        > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
                        > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
                        >
                        >
                        > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                        not
                        > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                        helm
                        > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                        > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                        seems
                        > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                        the
                        > > weather helm.
                        > >
                        > > How much leed would one need?
                        > >
                        > > Todd
                        > >
                        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
                        wrote:
                        > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                        > > >
                        > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                        > > Line.
                        > > >
                        > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                        > > >
                        > > > Roger :-)
                        > > > derbyrm@s...
                        > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                        > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 417lbs
                      • Jason Stancil
                        Todd- Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know better than I. Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with more
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                          Todd-

                          Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know
                          better than I.

                          Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with
                          more control and it's almost a junk rig. Bolger is finishing up a
                          sketch of the navigator with a larger mizzen and the main mast in a
                          tabernacle out in front of the bow transom.....maybe a battened
                          mizzen (heres hoping).

                          just a thought, i'll post some scans when my blue tube arrives.

                          Are those photos of the red and white micro your's?.....that's a
                          nice one.

                          Jason

                          >The question
                          > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
                          tabernackle
                          > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                          > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
                          and
                          > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
                          the
                          > standard rig?
                        • Roger Derby
                          I m just regurgitating what I ve read and tried, not passing judgement. My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it s tabernacle looks interesting because
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 1, 2004
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                            I'm just regurgitating what I've read and tried, not passing judgement.

                            My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it's tabernacle looks
                            interesting because the mast's foot is held into it with turnbuckles. Add a
                            spacer inside before tightening the turnbuckles and you've changed the mast
                            rake.

                            When I was planning and building my copy of Badger, a J. Benford designed
                            junk rig schooner featured in Annie Hill's great book "Voyaging on a Small
                            Income," I read everything I could find on the junk rig. I like it! The
                            bible for that one is Hassler and McCleod's "Practical Junk Rig." They
                            include the procedure (in excruciating detail) for converting from more
                            standard rigs. They also give some example rigs in the back of the book.

                            If you get hold of a copy, skim thru it first as they seem to cover the same
                            process several times and some explanations are clearer or more useful.
                            (There's also a lot of great, non-junk rig stuff shown; e.g. mast sizing and
                            construction, lightning protection, a conning dome and associated igloo-like
                            dodger, etc.)

                            Where they are talking of converting to a junk rig, they tend to keep the
                            center of the sail plan in the same place as it was on the original rig
                            IIRC. There's room to play here because there is (or can be) a line which
                            adjusts how much of the sail is forward of the mast. The junk sail is often
                            significantly larger than the sail it replaces because it's so easy to reef.

                            I don't think I'd bother trying to change the calculated lead when going to
                            a junk rig. The sail shapes are so different that it's apples and oranges.
                            I'd try it and then trim it.

                            > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                            > what do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.

                            It does look like fun. You'll get more area up high where it isn't becalmed
                            by the waves as often, and you will start a lot of conversations.

                            Sheeting is a problem with the junk rig. I think the scheme you show will
                            interfere with the junk sail on the mizzen.

                            I'd try eliminating sheet #3 and combining #1 & #2 with an euphroe so you
                            have a single line to diddle. IIRC, they don't usually sheet the gaff or
                            topmost battan. Your scheme will give better control of the sail's sag, but
                            the winds are fairer aloft so that may not be needed.

                            The Chinese often have two sets of sheets, port and starboard, on each sail,
                            when the masts are too close together or the hull ends too soon.

                            Without calculating the centers of the sails, it doesn't look like you've
                            changed the CE for the main much at all. With the Chinese scheme of merging
                            the many into a single sheet, reefing is automatic -- no extra lines needed.
                            Just start the halyard, then tighten the sheet and the yard hauling parrel
                            at your leisure. The pull of the lower elements of the sheet automatically
                            holds the lower battans down where you want them, snuggled in their lazy
                            jacks.

                            Roger
                            derbyrm@...
                            derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>


                            > Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed
                            > hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island
                            > fell asleep woke up just before hitting one of the farthest
                            > oil islands. Turned around and headed back. Sure could
                            > use more sail on the down hill rides.
                            > Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
                            > maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
                            > about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
                            > are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
                            > is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
                            > experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
                            > leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
                            > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
                            > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                            > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
                            > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
                            > standard rig?
                            >
                            > Todd




                            >
                            >
                            > up --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
                            > > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more
                            > > than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that
                            > > exists only on paper and making sure it will not be too awful
                            > > when built, but once you have a hull and rig, your feel under
                            > > sail is a whole lot more useful.
                            > >
                            > > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
                            > >
                            > > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
                            > > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
                            > main that
                            > > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
                            > ( boat
                            > > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
                            > >
                            > > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
                            > to control
                            > > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
                            > Do you
                            > > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
                            > the CE
                            > > aft and increases the weather helm?
                            > >
                            > > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
                            > change the
                            > > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
                            > >
                            > > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
                            > If you're
                            > > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
                            > centerboard raised
                            > > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
                            > of
                            > > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
                            > weather
                            > > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
                            > that "raising" the
                            > > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
                            > area
                            > > significantly.
                            > >
                            > > Main mast rake?
                            > >
                            > > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
                            > the
                            > > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
                            > was
                            > > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
                            > forward as
                            > > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
                            > back
                            > > when I had abs.
                            > >
                            > > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
                            > answers are
                            > > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
                            > Have fun.
                            > >
                            > > Roger
                            > > derbyrm@s...
                            > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
                            > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
                            > > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
                            > not
                            > > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                            > helm
                            > > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                            > > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                            > seems
                            > > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                            > the
                            > > > weather helm.
                            > > >
                            > > > How much leed would one need?
                            > > >
                            > > > Todd
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
                            > > > Line.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Roger :-)
                            > > > > derbyrm@s...
                            > > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                            > > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > 417lbs
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
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                            > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                            > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                            (978) 282-1349
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                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                            >
                          • Peter Lenihan
                            ... The question ... tabernackle ... and ... the ... Hi Todd, Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the beautiful sunny coast of Southern
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                              The question
                              > has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
                              tabernackle
                              > and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
                              > increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
                              and
                              > or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
                              the
                              > standard rig?
                              >
                              > Todd

                              Hi Todd,
                              Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the
                              beautiful sunny coast of Southern California,why would you need a
                              tabernacle for you mainmast anyway? Surely there can't be that many
                              low lying bridges to contend with :-)
                              As long as the center of effort for the junk mainsail remains
                              in the same postion as on the standard Micro rig,I think it fair to
                              conclude that handling the helm will be the same.
                              However,if you start shifting centers around without
                              considering other adjustments,then you could be setting yourself for
                              some disappointment.
                              Perhaps to get the best return on your proposed modification,it
                              would be best to write the designer for specs. best suited for your
                              needs?
                              Sorry I can't be more helpful :-(

                              Sincerely,

                              Peter Lenihan
                            • Peter Lenihan
                              ... I also mean winds above 15knots not ... helm ... seems ... the ... Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown on the original Micro
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                                I also mean winds above 15knots not
                                > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
                                helm
                                > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
                                > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
                                seems
                                > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
                                the
                                > weather helm.
                                > Todd

                                Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                                on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                                half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                                points shown on the original plans.
                                I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                                slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                                dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                                that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                                over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                                into full gale mode :-)

                                Sincerely,

                                Peter Lenihan
                              • Peter Lenihan
                                ... what ... Todd, I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look good. Lots
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
                                  > I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
                                  what
                                  > do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


                                  Todd,
                                  I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the
                                  proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look
                                  good. Lots of great interior room too,I suspect :-)
                                  Sadly, I don't think it will help much in putting some fun back
                                  into your Micro since it is begining to get further away from the
                                  clean simple elegance afforded by the original Micro design.
                                  Nevertheless, your rendering certainly merits further study and
                                  perhaps even a proper design work-up,on a fresh clean sheet of
                                  drafting paper. Imagine this design about 20' to 24' loa,with full
                                  standing headroom,enclosed head,leeboards,flat steel-plate on
                                  outside of hull bottom for ballast and grounding protection.....!
                                  You could call it the TODDPAN 24 and market it world wide from
                                  the confines of your own floating office which,of course, would be
                                  the prototype of this new design offering :-)
                                  Now that sounds like good fun to me :-)


                                  Sincerely,

                                  Peter Lenihan
                                • pvanderwaart
                                  ... In Bolgerland, Mizzen just for balance = yawl Mizzen provides drive = ketch Peter
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
                                    > Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

                                    In Bolgerland,

                                    Mizzen just for balance = yawl
                                    Mizzen provides drive = ketch

                                    Peter
                                  • dangonn@yahoo.com
                                    Seems to me that s a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another reefing option for the conditions. I haven t suffered from too much
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another
                                      reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much weather helm with my
                                      Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite tight so that I can
                                      sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                                      Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather helm? The more
                                      lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just curious, thanks.

                                      Hope that helps,

                                      Dan

                                      Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> wrote:
                                      > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                                      > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                                      > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                                      > points shown on the original plans.
                                      > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                                      > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                                      > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                                      > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                                      > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                                      > into full gale mode :-)
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      >
                                      > Peter Lenihan
                                    • Bill Kreamer
                                      Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead = more lee helm. -
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jul 2, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is
                                        forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead =
                                        more lee helm. - Bill

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: dangonn@... [mailto:dangonn@...]
                                        Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:31
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

                                        Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points
                                        to give another
                                        reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much
                                        weather helm with my
                                        Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite
                                        tight so that I can
                                        sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

                                        Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather
                                        helm? The more
                                        lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just
                                        curious, thanks.

                                        Hope that helps,

                                        Dan

                                        Long Micro pages: http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
                                        > on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
                                        > half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
                                        > points shown on the original plans.
                                        > I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
                                        > slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
                                        > dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
                                        > that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
                                        > over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
                                        > into full gale mode :-)
                                        >
                                        > Sincerely,
                                        >
                                        > Peter Lenihan



                                        Bolger rules!!!
                                        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                        - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                        - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                                        Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com





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