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Interesting artcle on ALERT

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  • John Bell
    Good article with photos about Jim Melcher and ALERT. I found particularly interesting Melcher s observations on his chinese gaff rig, and it s suitability for
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 8, 2004
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      Good article with photos about Jim Melcher and ALERT. I found particularly
      interesting Melcher's observations on his chinese gaff rig, and it's
      suitability for offshore work.

      http://www.yachtatom.com/articles/Alert.htm
    • bruce@hallman.org
      ... Quoted here: To handle the strong winds, we reefed and then scandalized the main by lowering the gaff s peak halyard, Jim said. Even using a working
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 8, 2004
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        --- "John Bell" wrote:
        > ...interesting Melcher's observations on
        > his chinese gaff rig, and it's
        > suitability for offshore work.
        >
        > http://www.yachtatom.com/articles/Alert.htm

        Quoted here:

        "To handle the strong winds, we reefed and then scandalized the main
        by lowering the gaff's peak halyard," Jim said. "Even using a working
        jib, we had excessive weather helm. When a lazy jack broke, it dumped
        the whole works – boom, gaff, and sail – into the sea. It's turned
        out a rather poor rig for offshore. I'm ready to convert it to
        traditional full Chinese-junk rig, which I believe will work
        better."

        I wonder if anybody knows of PB&F's acknowledgement
        and/or rebuttal to this criticism?

        I suppose dropping the mizzein and main sails
        entirely, and raising a small storm 'tri' sail
        might be called for in that circumstance?

        Or, dropping just the main and riding it
        out with a sea anchor from the bow?
      • David Ryan
        ... There s simply not enough info to understand the nature of the complaint(s?). The way this sentence reads, it sounds like a variety of problems in varying
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 8, 2004
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          >--- "John Bell" wrote:
          >> ...interesting Melcher's observations on
          >> his chinese gaff rig, and it's
          >> suitability for offshore work.
          >>
          >> http://www.yachtatom.com/articles/Alert.htm
          >
          >Quoted here:
          >
          >"To handle the strong winds, we reefed and then scandalized the main
          >by lowering the gaff's peak halyard," Jim said. "Even using a working
          >jib, we had excessive weather helm. When a lazy jack broke, it dumped
          >the whole works – boom, gaff, and sail – into the sea. It's turned
          >out a rather poor rig for offshore. I'm ready to convert it to
          >traditional full Chinese-junk rig, which I believe will work
          >better."

          There's simply not enough info to understand the
          nature of the complaint(s?). The way this
          sentence reads, it sounds like a variety of
          problems in varying circumstances.

          YIBB,

          David


          --

          C.E.P.
          415 W.46th Street
          New York, New York 10036
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        • dbaldnz
          Thanks for pointing us to this article John. Has there been any reports about the conversion and results of Alert s conversion to true Chinese rig? I can see
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 8, 2004
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            Thanks for pointing us to this article John.
            Has there been any reports about the conversion and results of
            Alert's conversion to true Chinese rig?
            I can see that for continuous offshore sailing, chaff would be a
            major problem with the Navigator rig.
            I imagine that the more docile rig would be better for cruising,
            where speed is less important than ease of handling.
            DonB

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
            wrote:
            > Good article with photos about Jim Melcher and ALERT. I found
            particularly
            > interesting Melcher's observations on his chinese gaff rig, and it's
            > suitability for offshore work.
            >
            > http://www.yachtatom.com/articles/Alert.htm
          • Nels
            ... I don t think he had a mizzen as there was was some sort of autohelm installed and the rig received a lot of damage through accidental jibes. Sailing
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 8, 2004
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
              > I wonder if anybody knows of PB&F's acknowledgement
              > and/or rebuttal to this criticism?
              >
              > I suppose dropping the mizzein and main sails
              > entirely, and raising a small storm 'tri' sail
              > might be called for in that circumstance?
              >
              > Or, dropping just the main and riding it
              > out with a sea anchor from the bow?

              I don't think he had a mizzen as there was was some sort of autohelm
              installed and the rig received a lot of damage through "accidental"
              jibes. Sailing downwind with what is essentially a big cat rig is
              pretty tricky at the best of times, let alone with gale force winds.

              Having a mizzen and a storm jib would probably have saved a lot of
              damage and "frayed" nerves. Perhaps the docility of the Bolger rig
              makes one careless?

              Cheers, Ne;s
            • dbaldnz
              Wait a minute David. Let s not forget that Melcher is the only person in the world to have sailed thousands of sea miles under the chinese gaff rig. Bolger has
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 9, 2004
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                Wait a minute David. Let's not forget that Melcher is the only person
                in the world to have sailed thousands of sea miles under the chinese
                gaff rig. Bolger has not....nor you nor I.
                Remember also, this was an article by another; not a comprehensive
                report by Melcher.
                DonB

                I'm ready to convert it to
                > >traditional full Chinese-junk rig, which I believe will work
                > >better."
                >
                > There's simply not enough info to understand the
                > nature of the complaint(s?). The way this
                > sentence reads, it sounds like a variety of
                > problems in varying circumstances.
                >
                > YIBB,
                >
                > David
                >
                >
                > --
                >
                > C.E.P.
                > 415 W.46th Street
                > New York, New York 10036
                > http://www.crumblingempire.com
                > Mobile (646) 325-8325
                > Office (212) 247-0296
              • David Ryan
                I m not questioning Melcher s opinion, I m questioning the writer s presentation. ... -- C.E.P. 415 W.46th Street New York, New York 10036
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 9, 2004
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                  I'm not questioning Melcher's opinion, I'm questioning the writer's
                  presentation.

                  >Wait a minute David. Let's not forget that Melcher is the only person
                  >in the world to have sailed thousands of sea miles under the chinese
                  >gaff rig. Bolger has not....nor you nor I.
                  >Remember also, this was an article by another; not a comprehensive
                  >report by Melcher.
                  >DonB
                  >
                  > I'm ready to convert it to
                  >> >traditional full Chinese-junk rig, which I believe will work
                  >> >better."
                  >>
                  >> There's simply not enough info to understand the
                  >> nature of the complaint(s?). The way this
                  >> sentence reads, it sounds like a variety of
                  >> problems in varying circumstances.
                  >>
                  >> YIBB,
                  >>
                  >> David
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --
                  >>
                  >> C.E.P.
                  >> 415 W.46th Street
                  >> New York, New York 10036
                  >> http://www.crumblingempire.com
                  >> Mobile (646) 325-8325
                  >> Office (212) 247-0296
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Bolger rules!!!
                  >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                  >Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --

                  C.E.P.
                  415 W.46th Street
                  New York, New York 10036
                  http://www.crumblingempire.com
                  Mobile (646) 325-8325
                  Office (212) 247-0296
                • Lincoln Ross
                  I personally would avoid sailing anyplace where I d need to avoid radar.
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 9, 2004
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                    I personally would avoid sailing anyplace where I'd need to avoid radar.

                    >Mdbaldnz wrote:
                    >snip
                    >I can see that for continuous offshore sailing, chaff would be a
                    >major problem with the Navigator rig.
                    >snip
                    >DonB
                    >
                  • bruce@hallman.org
                    I mailed a copy of this article on Alert to Phil Bolger and this is the letter that he sent back to me: [PCB s reference to mizzen is obviously to the
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 22 4:41 PM
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                      I mailed a copy of this article on Alert to Phil Bolger and this is
                      the letter that he sent back to me:

                      [PCB's reference to 'mizzen' is obviously to the MicroNav rig, as
                      Alert does not have a mizzen. In essence, I think, Bolger is
                      explaining that in a gale at sea, the MicroNav could be headed up
                      into the blow, where the Alert could not.]

                      ============PCB quoted below=====================
                      "Dear Bruce,

                      Sorry to be so slow answering yours of April 10. Things have been
                      hectic here in various ways.

                      As to Melcher's problems, he rig was a makeshift in the first
                      place. (to use as much of the existing gear and structure as
                      possible and he also did not make the most of it in several ways.
                      We did not at all like his sheeting arrangements when he was here,
                      and thinks at least part of his trouble would have been avoidable
                      with more thought.

                      We made the mizzen quite large since there have been complaints on
                      other designs that they are not powerful enough to keep the bow to
                      the wind, whereas it can be feathered (luffed) or furled if there's
                      too heavy a helm.

                      Of course, no boat the size of Micro can keep going against a gale,
                      if only because the drift of the surface water will take her to
                      leeward more or less. But I would expect her to hang on better than
                      most.

                      We will look forward to hearing of your trials and seeing pics of
                      her in action!

                      Sincerely,
                      Phil Bolger"

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
                      wrote:
                      > Good article with photos about Jim Melcher and ALERT. I found
                      particularly
                      > interesting Melcher's observations on his chinese gaff rig, and
                      it's
                      > suitability for offshore work.
                      >
                      > http://www.yachtatom.com/articles/Alert.htm
                    • Nels
                      ... Hi Bruce, Thank you for sharing your response from PCB&F. The article confirms what seems to happen with what must be annoying frequency for them. Somebody
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 23 9:13 AM
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
                        > I mailed a copy of this article on Alert to Phil Bolger and this is
                        > the letter that he sent back to me:
                        >
                        Hi Bruce,

                        Thank you for sharing your response from PCB&F. The article confirms
                        what seems to happen with what must be annoying frequency for them.
                        Somebody makes design changes and then complains about the
                        performance afterwards as if the design was faulty!

                        And often do it after conferring with the designer who is against it.
                        Of course "junk rigging" his designs is one area of great annoyance
                        and the other is changing the configuration for preventing leeway -
                        like a MICRO with leeboards or something, not realizing the entire
                        design is a total sum of all the parts, each one very painstakingly
                        thought out.

                        "Of course, no boat the size of Micro can keep going against a gale,
                        if only because the drift of the surface water will take her to
                        leeward more or less. But I would expect her to hang on better than
                        most."

                        Nice words to hear, and also a confirmation for having a strong
                        relaible motor in case you end getting too close to that lee shore.

                        Cheers, Nels
                      • Bruce Hallman
                        ... Plus, I recall Bolger writing that with shallow draft boats [was it Storm Petrel?] it would be a hard chance to find a lee shore that, upon grounding, you
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 23 9:42 AM
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                          > Nels <arvent@> wrote:
                          > "Of course, no boat the size of Micro can keep going against a gale,
                          > if only because the drift of the surface water will take her to
                          > leeward more or less. But I would expect her to hang on better than
                          > most."
                          >
                          > Nice words to hear, and also a confirmation for having a strong
                          > relaible motor in case you end getting too close to that lee shore.

                          Plus, I recall Bolger writing that with shallow draft boats [was it
                          Storm Petrel?] it would be a hard chance to find a lee shore
                          that, upon grounding, you wouldn't be able to walk away in
                          knee deep water

                          Bolger was supportive of my thoughts of using a yuloh for
                          auxilary power, versus an outboard motor, and he has not
                          recommended a large motor for Micro, rather he recommends
                          a small one. ...With the reason being that he wants to
                          minimize weight in the bow and stern of the boat.
                        • Jason Stancil
                          ... ? that dang aluminum pipe of mine is not minimizing the weight in my bow :) I have a little 2hp honda, i hope that will do the trick. It ll be hard pressed
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 23 10:07 AM
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                            >
                            > Bolger was supportive of my thoughts of using a yuloh for
                            > auxilary power, versus an outboard motor, and he has not
                            > recommended a large motor for Micro, rather he recommends
                            > a small one. ...With the reason being that he wants to
                            > minimize weight in the bow and stern of the boat.

                            ? that dang aluminum pipe of mine is not minimizing the weight in my
                            bow :)

                            I have a little 2hp honda, i hope that will do the trick. It'll be
                            hard pressed to fight a tide, here's hoping. I also am going to have
                            to shorten the shaft on my yuloh, not sure if the companionway is
                            going to wide enough to scull from the sole. I want to keep that
                            opening as tight on center line as possible. However i made the
                            yuloh long enough so as a little motion on the end provides quite a
                            bit on the blade, Just not sure till i try it out, may have to skull
                            from the deck. Sure glad the boat will have life lines. The micro's
                            configuration works real well for the yuloh, I have arched my
                            transom about 2 inches and the motor pivits under it and the yuloh
                            pivit centers over the outboard and just perfectly clears the long
                            shafted raised prop and is plenty clear of the prospective mizzen
                            placement.......if i had a larger motor say more than 5hp i would
                            have to raise the pivit point considerably.

                            Jason
                          • Nels
                            ... I certainly concur with using a yuloh and that is true with shallow draft boats. However if there are reefs and rocky shorelines around, and a big surf -
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 23 10:19 AM
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                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                              > Plus, I recall Bolger writing that with shallow draft boats [was it
                              > Storm Petrel?] it would be a hard chance to find a lee shore
                              > that, upon grounding, you wouldn't be able to walk away in
                              > knee deep water
                              >
                              > Bolger was supportive of my thoughts of using a yuloh for
                              > auxilary power, versus an outboard motor, and he has not
                              > recommended a large motor for Micro, rather he recommends
                              > a small one. ...With the reason being that he wants to
                              > minimize weight in the bow and stern of the boat.

                              I certainly concur with using a yuloh and that is true with shallow
                              draft boats. However if there are reefs and rocky shorelines around,
                              and a big surf - it may be safer for the boat to have the option of a
                              motor. It also gives one that ability to find shelter in "the calm
                              before the storm"... which often happens. So it depends a lot on
                              where you sail and how a good a sailer you are.

                              Susanne Altenburger recommends the 5hp 4 stroke Honda engine which
                              weighs 61 pounds. I believe it is about the smallest motor that
                              offers remote controls and an alternator.

                              Jason tells about that in mesg #35485, which I have kept a copy of.
                              With a LONG MICRO one can probably use the Yamaha T9.9 which has a
                              12 amp alternator and weighs 80 pounds - very heavy - but uses about
                              the same head as the 15.

                              LESTAT has had a 20 hp Merc with 6 people on board. This was only in
                              a river setting. However it does show how conservative PCB&F are in
                              their recommendations. They are considering more or les the worse
                              case scenario and are very responsibile for the safety of their
                              flock:-)

                              Cheers, Nels
                            • David Ryan
                              ... Any blow that would drive a boat upon a lee shore against its skipper s wishes would also cause waves on said lee shore that would likely destroy the boat
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 24 4:54 AM
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                                >Plus, I recall Bolger writing that with shallow draft boats [was it
                                >Storm Petrel?] it would be a hard chance to find a lee shore
                                >that, upon grounding, you wouldn't be able to walk away in
                                >knee deep water

                                Any blow that would drive a boat upon a lee shore against its
                                skipper's wishes would also cause waves on said lee shore that would
                                likely destroy the boat and deposit its remains in knee deep water.
                                Any body of water that lacked sufficient fetch to develop such wave
                                wouldn't be any danger in any case.

                                YIBB,

                                David
                                --

                                C.E.P.
                                415 W.46th Street
                                New York, New York 10036
                                http://www.crumblingempire.com
                                Mobile (646) 325-8325
                                Office (212) 247-0296
                              • Robert Gainer
                                I think that the closer you are to dry land when you hit the bottom the better your odds are of walking away from it. I know of a lot of spots where the water
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 24 5:12 AM
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                                  I think that the closer you are to dry land when you hit the bottom the
                                  better your odds are of walking away from it. I know of a lot of spots where
                                  the water is only a 5 or 6 feet deep 1500 feet offshore. When you destroy a
                                  boat in deeper water there are a lot of pieces in the water with you that
                                  will beat the hell out of you before you (perhaps) drift into shallow water.
                                  All the best;
                                  Robert Gainer



                                  >From: David Ryan <david@...>
                                  >Reply-To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Interesting artcle on ALERT
                                  >Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:54:31 -0400
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >Plus, I recall Bolger writing that with shallow draft boats [was it
                                  > >Storm Petrel?] it would be a hard chance to find a lee shore
                                  > >that, upon grounding, you wouldn't be able to walk away in
                                  > >knee deep water
                                  >
                                  >Any blow that would drive a boat upon a lee shore against its
                                  >skipper's wishes would also cause waves on said lee shore that would
                                  >likely destroy the boat and deposit its remains in knee deep water.
                                  >Any body of water that lacked sufficient fetch to develop such wave
                                  >wouldn't be any danger in any case.
                                  >
                                  >YIBB,
                                  >
                                  >David
                                  >--
                                  >
                                  >C.E.P.
                                  >415 W.46th Street
                                  >New York, New York 10036
                                  >http://www.crumblingempire.com
                                  >Mobile (646) 325-8325
                                  >Office (212) 247-0296

                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                  Learn to simplify your finances and your life in Streamline Your Life from
                                  MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0405streamline.armx
                                • pvanderwaart
                                  ... Within limits, of course. A vertical rock wall is would not be a good place. Typical power for a sailboat is 2 hp per ton. You need to round up a bit for
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 24 8:13 AM
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                                    > I think that the closer you are to dry land when you hit
                                    > the bottom the better your odds are of walking away from it.

                                    Within limits, of course. A vertical rock wall is would not be a
                                    good place.

                                    Typical power for a sailboat is 2 hp per ton. You need to round up a
                                    bit for very small boats because the very small, high rpm propellors
                                    on little engines provide push, but not shove, i.e. don't get you
                                    started from a stoppped condition very well. A 5hp good enough for
                                    my 1 ton Capri 22. The PB&F recommendation of 5hp seems very
                                    adequate to me.

                                    In fairness, Bolger tries to take the best of both ends when
                                    discussing Alert. He brags about her exploits (miles sailed, oceans
                                    crossed, etc) while noting that she is down 9 inches (or whatever)
                                    from her designed lines, and has a permanent house that he would
                                    have liked to veto. But he tends to put the burden of complaints on
                                    the crew.

                                    Melcher likewise seems to put the blame for various problems on
                                    Bolger even though he started with a coastwise cruiser and took her
                                    where she was not designed to go, and parted with Bolger's advice
                                    when and whereever he took mind to.

                                    Two indepentent spirits.

                                    Peter
                                  • Bruce Hallman
                                    Is it true that Alert is the only example of a Chinese Gaff rig that has been sailed? Has Oink been sailed yet? Micro Navigator, with a mizzen seems likely to
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 24 9:26 AM
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                                      Is it true that Alert is the only example
                                      of a Chinese Gaff rig that has been sailed?

                                      Has Oink been sailed yet?

                                      Micro Navigator, with a mizzen seems
                                      likely to be much a much different experience
                                      than than the mainsail only version on Alert.

                                      > pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
                                      > In fairness, Bolger tries to take the best of both ends when
                                      > discussing Alert. He brags about her exploits
                                    • Derek Waters
                                      Hi Bruce ... been sailed? Your question s rhetorical, eh? We only got Moriarty, our Chinese Gaff Micro launched at the tail end of last season, but we ve been
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 24 10:30 AM
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                                        Hi Bruce

                                        > "Is it true that Alert is the only example of a Chinese Gaff rig that has
                                        been sailed?"

                                        Your question's rhetorical, eh? We only got Moriarty, our Chinese Gaff Micro
                                        launched at the tail end of last season, but we've been out under sail in
                                        conditions ranging from 'lazy drifting' to 'over hull speed fully reefed'.

                                        Derek
                                        [looking forward to a much longer season this year]
                                      • Bruce Hallman
                                        Yes, of course, I forgot. I recall you mentioning this last fall, see the thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/30451 I am just looking a copy
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 24 11:10 AM
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                                          Yes, of course, I forgot.

                                          I recall you mentioning this last fall, see the
                                          thread:
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/30451

                                          I am just looking a copy of a photo you posted of
                                          her, which I saved to my hard drive. I forget the
                                          URL of your photos of this rig.


                                          > Derek Waters wrote:
                                          > Your question's rhetorical, eh? We only got Moriarty, our Chinese Gaff Micro
                                          > launched at the tail end of last season, but we've been out under sail in
                                          > conditions ranging from 'lazy drifting' to 'over hull speed fully reefed'.
                                          >
                                          > Derek
                                        • pauldayau
                                          ... are about this deep,and heaven help you if you get caught out in a blow. I was once crossing a lake that had a hard salt crust under 12 of water. The
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 26 3:36 AM
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                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > likely destroy the boat and deposit its remains in knee deep water.
                                            > Any body of water that lacked sufficient fetch to develop such wave
                                            > wouldn't be any danger in any case.
                                            >
                                            > YIBB,
                                            >
                                            > David
                                            > --
                                            > David , I'll have to disagree with that one. Almost all our lakes
                                            are about this deep,and heaven help you if you get caught out in a
                                            blow.
                                            I was once crossing a lake that had a hard salt crust under 12" of
                                            water. The vessel was an ARGO 6wheel drive amphib banana splits job.
                                            On the way home we had to cross a deep channel (18") and got caught
                                            in a storm front. the waves were high and steep enough to break over
                                            the bow and low enough that we would slam onto bare salt, only to
                                            have the next wave dump on us. we had no control at all and were
                                            pushed onto a leeshore of sharp talus under a 6' cliff that the argo
                                            couldnt climb.
                                            Damage bill was half the cost of the Argo and it had been bent . It
                                            was scrapped soon after. The Geologist and I got some lacerations and
                                            bruises. The Geo was knocked overboard once, and between the bleeding
                                            and the pain of laughing too hard, it took some effort to get back
                                            aboard. No-one believed our explanation for the damage and our injury
                                            report was faxed around the minesite as people thought it was a joke.
                                            All this was before I ever owned a boat.
                                            Cheers Paul
                                            >
                                          • David Ryan
                                            ... It sounds like your lake has plenty of fetch. I m not sure what you re disagreeing with... YIBB, David -- C.E.P. 415 W.46th Street New York, New York 10036
                                            Message 21 of 25 , May 30 9:58 AM
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                                              >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >> likely destroy the boat and deposit its remains in knee deep water.
                                              >> Any body of water that lacked sufficient fetch to develop such wave
                                              >> wouldn't be any danger in any case.
                                              >>
                                              >> YIBB,
                                              >>
                                              >> David
                                              >> --
                                              >> David , I'll have to disagree with that one. Almost all our lakes
                                              >are about this deep,and heaven help you if you get caught out in a
                                              >blow.


                                              It sounds like your lake has plenty of fetch. I'm not sure what
                                              you're disagreeing with...

                                              YIBB,

                                              David

                                              --

                                              C.E.P.
                                              415 W.46th Street
                                              New York, New York 10036
                                              http://www.crumblingempire.com
                                              Mobile (646) 325-8325
                                              Office (212) 247-0296
                                            • pauldayau
                                              ... water. ... wave ... lakes ... to catch one?
                                              Message 22 of 25 , May 31 4:53 AM
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                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                                                > >--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                                                > >>
                                                > >> likely destroy the boat and deposit its remains in knee deep
                                                water.
                                                > >> Any body of water that lacked sufficient fetch to develop such
                                                wave
                                                > >> wouldn't be any danger in any case.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> YIBB,
                                                > >>
                                                > >> David
                                                > >> --
                                                > >> David , I'll have to disagree with that one. Almost all our
                                                lakes
                                                > >are about this deep,and heaven help you if you get caught out in a
                                                > >blow.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > It sounds like your lake has plenty of fetch. I'm not sure what
                                                > you're disagreeing with...
                                                >
                                                > YIBB,
                                                >
                                                > David
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                >
                                                > OK david I give up. just whatis fetch? do I need a rod or handline
                                                to catch one?
                                              • David Ryan
                                                ... Wave size is determined by how hard the wind blows, how long it blows, and the distance over which it blow (fetch). A gale blowing for a day across a pond
                                                Message 23 of 25 , May 31 2:06 PM
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                                                  >> OK david I give up. just whatis fetch? do I need a rod or handline
                                                  >to catch one?

                                                  Wave size is determined by how hard the wind blows, how long it
                                                  blows, and the distance over which it blow (fetch).

                                                  A gale blowing for a day across a pond will not develop the same size
                                                  waves as a 20 knot wind blowing for a week across 1000 miles of open
                                                  ocean.

                                                  YIBB,

                                                  David
                                                  --

                                                  C.E.P.
                                                  415 W.46th Street
                                                  New York, New York 10036
                                                  http://www.crumblingempire.com
                                                  Mobile (646) 325-8325
                                                  Office (212) 247-0296
                                                • Roger Derby
                                                  And then there s the water depth. What you re describing is how the wave gains energy. The height comes when the rolling pin of energy moving thru the water
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , May 31 2:42 PM
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                                                    And then there's the water depth. What you're describing is how the wave
                                                    gains energy. The height comes when the rolling pin of energy moving thru
                                                    the water is thrust above the surface by the bottom.

                                                    For real waves, check out the south end of Lake Michigan when a north wind
                                                    has been blowing for a while. The skippers that come in thru the St.
                                                    Lawrence seaway claim it's worse than the Atlantic.

                                                    Roger
                                                    (Yes, we should have known those funny red triangles flying on the Coast
                                                    Guard Station were storm warnings before heading for Chicago from Saugatauk,
                                                    MI, but that wasn't in the book we read.)
                                                    derbyrm@...
                                                    derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "David Ryan" <david@...>


                                                    > >> OK david I give up. just whatis fetch? do I need a rod or handline
                                                    > >to catch one?
                                                    >
                                                    > Wave size is determined by how hard the wind blows, how long it
                                                    > blows, and the distance over which it blow (fetch).
                                                    >
                                                    > A gale blowing for a day across a pond will not develop the same size
                                                    > waves as a 20 knot wind blowing for a week across 1000 miles of open
                                                    > ocean.
                                                    >
                                                    > YIBB,
                                                    >
                                                    > David
                                                    > --
                                                    >
                                                    > C.E.P.
                                                    > 415 W.46th Street
                                                    > New York, New York 10036
                                                    > http://www.crumblingempire.com
                                                    > Mobile (646) 325-8325
                                                    > Office (212) 247-0296
                                                  • pauldayau
                                                    ... handline ... size ... open ... Arrrgggh. I get it . it was a good job thatwe were at the start of the lake rather that 60 kms north at the end of the lake.
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                                                      > >> OK david I give up. just whatis fetch? do I need a rod or
                                                      handline
                                                      > >to catch one?
                                                      >
                                                      > Wave size is determined by how hard the wind blows, how long it
                                                      > blows, and the distance over which it blow (fetch).
                                                      >
                                                      > A gale blowing for a day across a pond will not develop the same
                                                      size
                                                      > waves as a 20 knot wind blowing for a week across 1000 miles of
                                                      open
                                                      > ocean.
                                                      >
                                                      > YIBB,
                                                      >
                                                      > David
                                                      > --
                                                      >
                                                      Arrrgggh. I get it . it was a good job thatwe were at the start of
                                                      the lake rather that 60 kms north at the end of the lake. At that end
                                                      the water basically flooded out of the lake floor and poisoned a big
                                                      area of saltbush grazing land. I was told it looked like a series of
                                                      mini tidal waves rolling across a paddock.
                                                      cheers paul
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