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Re: phil bolger and friends

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  • Jason Stancil
    If i was interested in a bigger trip i should ... fax ... may ... Not sure about their workload but she said it would be easy enough to adapt the current plans
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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      If i was interested in a bigger trip i should
      > > consider a LM navigator and said the conversion would be easy
      > enough
      > > to do and they could do the drawings but no one had asked.
      >
      > I, made that very enquiry last October and have the hand written
      fax
      > response from Phil telling me they were too busy to consider a LM
      > Navigator as well as a plywood Colonel Hasler plan. It seems they
      may
      > be caught up a bit and might reconsider it?

      Not sure about their workload but she said it would be easy enough
      to adapt the current plans with a navigator house and rig. That's
      why she had figured there was'nt much interest.....if people wanted
      it the would just do it.

      > I am very skeptical that the alternator on the 5 hp Honda and a
      solar
      > panel, will keep two 6 volt batteries charged - if they are the
      golf
      > cart batteries which I believe they recommend. However that system
      > would keep going for quite awhile with the small loads imposed by
      LED
      > lighting. A good quality 110 battery charger would also be needed,
      > for when one was in port.

      The point was to keep the electrical system simple, like the
      boat.....no microwaves here (like bruce's boat....nice touch). She
      said the alternator was pretty wimpy on the honda but it is the
      smallest outboard they know of with an alternator and could fully
      charge the batteries with a couple hours of motorsailing. The
      electrical system is intended to power LED navigation lights and not
      much more. My dad ran 2 cheap and small 5 yr old 12 volts with a 5
      amp solar panel on his stonehorse. One battery was reserved to start
      the yanmar and the other was for system electronics.......even if
      you didn't start the engine for weeks on end and ran your
      nav./anchor lights from dusk till dawn that one panel running all
      day would keep the lights running all night and battery was almost
      always @ 12.5 volts by nightfall. However if you played the radio
      all day, you could'nt make it through the night.....but that was
      with incadesent bulbs, i'm willing to bet for ever hour you burned
      the old style lights you can burn LED for 4 hrs.

      >
      > Are there any other upgrades to the MICRO and LM plans that were
      > mentioned? Did you happen to mention the changes as recommended by
      > Peter Lenihan and get their observations? I know Phil is very
      pleased
      > with LESTAT which he confirmed again to me in his fax.

      She did'nt say what the upgrades were and i did'nt ask, she just
      said my current plans are dated. Maybe she just wanted me to buy
      some more stuff? :)

      > A fully upgraded version of a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR might be a
      > worthwhile article for MAIB magazine. Maybe including a non
      > kerphlumping rounded bow. (Is that the correct German term?)
      >
      > It would need a whole new name. Any suggestions? Anyone else
      > interested? With a Yamaha T9.9 it would be a fully capable
      > motorsailer of some merit I would suggest and probably at about
      1/4
      > the price and complexity of any other design.

      Not that i need a boat that big but it would be a sweet one, the
      space of a 30 footer for sure, is that still mico cruising?.....Nels
      what do you think of the seabird with the pilot house....it's got to
      be a little less kerphlumping than any micro could ever be.

      Jason
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... http://community.webshots.com/album/121069753OCENAu It was interesting to read of SA s comments about the need for bottom strength for safety in a storm
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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        --- Frank San Miguel wrote:
        > Can you please repost
        > the link?

        http://community.webshots.com/album/121069753OCENAu

        It was interesting to read of SA's comments
        about the need for bottom strength for
        safety in a storm against pounding.

        Note that in Micro Navigator, as in other
        designs, [such as Dakota/Wyoming], PB&F
        specify the use of floor beams
        [which double as the faces of the berths].


        They wrote in MAIB:
        "Incidentally, one side effect of the new cabin
        layout is the further stiffening of the bottom
        fore and aft."
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... Ever considered a Jessie Cooper? You could safely upsize the cabin windows using Lexan, and have a full size mattress for your berth. :)
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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          --- Nels wrote:
          > a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR

          Ever considered a Jessie Cooper?

          You could safely upsize the cabin
          windows using Lexan, and have a full
          size mattress for your berth. :)
        • Frank San Miguel
          holy cow. Didn t you just start this a few months ago! What a beauty. Awesome job! Frank
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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            holy cow. Didn't you just start this a few months ago! What a
            beauty. Awesome job!

            Frank

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
            > --- Frank San Miguel wrote:
            > > Can you please repost
            > > the link?
            >
            > http://community.webshots.com/album/121069753OCENAu
            >
            > It was interesting to read of SA's comments
            > about the need for bottom strength for
            > safety in a storm against pounding.
            >
            > Note that in Micro Navigator, as in other
            > designs, [such as Dakota/Wyoming], PB&F
            > specify the use of floor beams
            > [which double as the faces of the berths].
            >
            >
            > They wrote in MAIB:
            > "Incidentally, one side effect of the new cabin
            > layout is the further stiffening of the bottom
            > fore and aft."
          • Nels
            ... Hi Bruce and Jason, Of course I have considered Jesse Cooper, as well as Seabird updated, especially when I had planned to live aboard on a more long-term
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
              > --- Nels wrote:
              > > a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR
              >
              > Ever considered a Jessie Cooper?
              >
              > You could safely upsize the cabin
              > windows using Lexan, and have a full
              > size mattress for your berth. :)

              Hi Bruce and Jason,

              Of course I have considered Jesse Cooper, as well as Seabird updated,
              especially when I had planned to live aboard on a more long-term
              basis. Then when I realized the capability of the MICRO series, I
              down-sized my requirements and gained the big advantage of
              trailerability. (The fastest sailboat in the world is one that fits
              nicely on a trailer.)

              PCB gives a good summary of the weaknesses of JC on page 369 of
              BWAOM. He then designed the AS19 and AS29 to overcome these
              deficiences. LONG MICRO already had all the AS design features,
              except for the double bed. JC might still be a good choice if one was
              more or less permanently located in a deep water berth.

              Seabird is a beautiful alternative but has several challenges that I
              am not that interested in. I like the instant boat building method
              rather than stitch and glue. Seabird is quite a bit wider, is not as
              beachable and actually does not have as much interior space because
              of the double chines. Also I am not sure how stable she would be in a
              dry-out situation with that narrow bottom. (Which PCB says makes
              her "tiddly at anchor.)

              Seabird would be more expensive to build, does not have that nice
              yawl rig, does not have near the storage space in the hold - again
              because of the multichines and the cooking area taking up most of the
              space.

              In a LM with pilothouse, I have figured out a way to have room for a
              berth that would convert to a double, in the forward section and
              quickly flip up to go to the f'ward hatch. And then have a regular
              galley with stand-up headroom. One can shower in the forward well and
              there is still space for a pump-out head opposite the galley. If you
              have ever seen the interior of some of the campervan conversions you
              will see that they have several clever solutions.

              To me the 20 ft length, sahllow keel, and 6 foot beam is still
              convenient ot trail and launch at most ramps. I firmly believe that
              the MICRO series gives the best bang for the buck if you are not
              turned off by the visual aspects. As somebody once said, few people
              understand that the looks they detest are the very features that make
              it work so well!

              Cheers, Nels
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Eletrical usage can be calculated. Using a 300watt microwave for five minutes is negligible. Extended usage of 100 watt lights, stereo amp, [or a 12V
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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                --- Jason Stancil wrote:
                > ...no microwaves here (like bruce's

                Eletrical usage can be calculated.

                Using a 300watt microwave for five
                minutes is negligible. Extended
                usage of 100 watt lights, stereo amp,
                [or a 12V refrigerator, like with
                Champlain] is how to run up the amp
                hours!

                The WWWeb has a lot of info on this,
                mostly aimed at motorhome/RV off-
                grid'ers.

                My calculation is for Micro Navigator
                to charge up all week on my 44 Watts
                of photovoltaic panels, and draw down
                on Sat. & Sunday. I also will carry
                a beefy 12V battery charger as backup.

                Twin Trojan T-105 6V batteries hold
                a lot more energy [440AH] than one 12V
                group 27 battery [105AH].

                Champlain as designed, with four 8D
                12V batteries, holds 900 AH.

                I considered LED lights, but decided
                it was too expensive. Buying more
                battery/PV and using incandescent
                lights was cheaper IMO than using LED's.
              • Bruce Hallman
                ... [Thanks] No, I started in September 2002, and have averaged about 10 manhours per week, with more than 550 hours [and $1500] into it so far.
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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                  --- Frank San Miguel:
                  > Didn't you just start
                  > this a few months
                  > ago!

                  [Thanks] No, I started
                  in September 2002, and have
                  averaged about 10 manhours
                  per week, with more than
                  550 hours [and $1500] into
                  it so far.
                • Frank San Miguel
                  I remember you starting, but forgot exactly when you started. My how time flies!
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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                    I remember you starting, but forgot exactly when you started. My how
                    time flies!

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                    > --- Frank San Miguel:
                    > > Didn't you just start
                    > > this a few months
                    > > ago!
                    >
                    > [Thanks] No, I started
                    > in September 2002, and have
                    > averaged about 10 manhours
                    > per week, with more than
                    > 550 hours [and $1500] into
                    > it so far.
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... 25 6 x 7 6 is trailerable. though not a small as a LM. The J.C. flat bottom had advantages over the fin keel of L.M. when it comes sitting on a trailer.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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                      --- Nels
                      > Jesse Cooper,
                      > gained the big
                      > advantage of
                      > trailerability.

                      25'6 x 7'6" is trailerable.
                      though not a small as a LM.

                      The J.C. flat bottom had advantages
                      over the fin keel of L.M. when
                      it comes sitting on a trailer.

                      They both have similar amounts
                      of ballast.

                      I bet that 25'6" could be
                      cut down to 24' by giving
                      J.C. a bow transom without
                      much affect, if any.

                      The fact that JC has a top
                      deck, where you can walk from
                      stern to bow makes it a lot
                      bigger boat measured in 'sprawl
                      space'.

                      One drawback of a Navigator style
                      cabin is that the roof of the
                      cabin doesn't serve double duty
                      as a deck, nor is there any easy
                      way to walk between the front to the
                      aft decks. Plus, the Chinese Gaff
                      rig has so much running rigging that
                      the forward deck is effectively unusable.
                    • RKAMILS@aol.com
                      In a message dated 4/1/2004 4:04:36 PM Central Standard Time, bruce@hallman.org writes: considered LED lights, but decided it was too expensive. Buying more
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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                        In a message dated 4/1/2004 4:04:36 PM Central Standard Time,
                        bruce@... writes:
                        considered LED lights, but decided
                        it was too expensive. Buying more
                        battery/PV and using incandescent
                        lights was cheaper IMO than using LED's
                        True, LED lights are expensive. They have another advantage besides low amp
                        draw, however. They can be made totally waterproof as you don't have to
                        change bulbs. This may not matter to all of you who will only be in fresh water,
                        but when I became a live aboard on the Roberts Spray 28 I built, and got out
                        into saltwater I did indeed have problems with corrosion cutting out my nav
                        lights. I will spend the money on the one I'm building now (Bantam) because nav
                        lights that don't work are trouble.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nels
                        ... Actually the shallow keel is an advantge as it raises the chines up above the fenders of the trailer. ... I believe JC is twice as heavy. The 480 lb of
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                          > 25'6 x 7'6" is trailerable.
                          > though not a small as a LM.
                          >
                          > The J.C. flat bottom had advantages
                          > over the fin keel of L.M. when
                          > it comes sitting on a trailer.

                          Actually the shallow keel is an advantge as it raises the chines up
                          above the fenders of the trailer.

                          > They both have similar amounts
                          > of ballast.

                          I believe JC is twice as heavy. The 480 lb of inside steel ballest
                          shown on the plans is not enough from what I have heard. But I will
                          certainly ask PCB&F when I talk to them. The fact that they have
                          pretty much abandened the JC design and continue to upgrade and tweak
                          the MICRO series I find very interesting.

                          Chuck Merrell probably has the best JC example, but he said that if
                          he built another it would have the full length keel like LM

                          http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/pages/junkboy.htm

                          Unfortunately he never completed the re-design that would have
                          overcome some of the original weaknesses.

                          Having all that deckspace, certainly is attractive. Yet being down
                          inside the boat and having full visibility seems to be the direction
                          that PCB&F are going in.

                          Cheers, Nels
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