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phil bolger and friends

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  • smithriverranger
    I just got off the phone with suzanne from PCB&Friends. WOW! So nice and so chatty. She responded to my fax in about a half an hour for a request of the
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 31, 2004
      I just got off the phone with suzanne from PCB&Friends. WOW! So nice
      and so chatty. She responded to my fax in about a half an hour for a
      request of the navigator sheet. She flammed CSD and expressed there
      would soon be another lawsuit. BUY YOUR PLANS FROM THE DESIGNER!
      Don't make the mistake i did and get them off the internet. Suzanne
      also told me that they periodically upgrade the micro plans as
      improvements come to light, so you may as well get the most current
      edition. She advised me on batteries, rigging, solar panels,
      outboards and a stern lecture on what this boat is and is not
      capable of......lets just say she has more faith in the boat than i
      do!
      Jason Stancil

      PS. After seeing pictures of bruce's fantastic navigator
      today......i'm going to build an official navigator with a few bruce
      like additions. However, i doubt mine will look nearly as nice as
      bruce's
    • Hugo Tyson
      I must agree, Susanne seems very nice and very knowlegeable and enthusiastic about the Phil Bolger & Friends designs. I ve spoken several times with her and
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 31, 2004
        I must agree, Susanne seems very nice and very knowlegeable and enthusiastic about the Phil Bolger & Friends designs. I've spoken several times with her and Phil by phone about a custom design("Silver Blaze"- a torpedo-stern inboard speedboat) they are currently doing for me.Phil's fairly straight to the point, but its hard to stop talking to Susanne she seems to be very knowledgeable about nearly anything mechanical and nautical and has a good sense of humour!(Who says Germans have no sense of humour!!??)

        Hugo Tyson, in Launceston, Tasmania, Australia on a wet, windy and quite cool day!
        smithriverranger <jasonstancil@...> wrote:
        I just got off the phone with suzanne from PCB&Friends. WOW! So nice
        and so chatty. She responded to my fax in about a half an hour for a
        request of the navigator sheet. She flammed CSD and expressed there
        would soon be another lawsuit. BUY YOUR PLANS FROM THE DESIGNER!
        Don't make the mistake i did and get them off the internet. Suzanne
        also told me that they periodically upgrade the micro plans as
        improvements come to light, so you may as well get the most current
        edition. She advised me on batteries, rigging, solar panels,
        outboards and a stern lecture on what this boat is and is not
        capable of......lets just say she has more faith in the boat than i
        do!
        Jason Stancil

        PS. After seeing pictures of bruce's fantastic navigator
        today......i'm going to build an official navigator with a few bruce
        like additions. However, i doubt mine will look nearly as nice as
        bruce's



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      • Bruce Hallman
        ... Please tell us in detail what she said, I am very curious.
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 31, 2004
          --- smithriverranger wrote:
          > [SA gave] a stern lecture on what
          > [Micro] is and is not capable of...

          Please tell us in detail what she said,
          I am very curious.
        • Jason Stancil
          ... First off let me say i had a hard time translating her accent but basically here is what i know. The navigator conversion was designed for a fellow that
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 31, 2004
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
            > --- smithriverranger wrote:
            > > [SA gave] a stern lecture on what
            > > [Micro] is and is not capable of...
            >
            > Please tell us in detail what she said,
            > I am very curious.

            First off let me say i had a hard time translating her accent but
            basically here is what i know.

            The navigator conversion was designed for a fellow that wanted to
            singlehandedly circimnavigate the australian continent, not the
            earth....this is where the lecture begain. She carried on about
            legal issues designing a boat and made sure i wasn't up to anything
            too stupid.......very libertarian of her. She said it is a great
            boat for shorter jaunts......specifically nova scoia and the
            caribean, but not the atlantic. She said what limits the micro the
            most for larger crossings is the hull speed is so low you expose
            yourself more. If i was interested in a bigger trip i should
            consider a LM navigator and said the conversion would be easy enough
            to do and they could do the drawings but no one had asked. She said
            the key to safely cruising in a micro navigator is to rig it to spec
            so you don't have to leave the safety of the pilot house, slow it
            down(i'm guessing this means so it does'nt surf down wind in
            following seas, as in dragging warps or a drouge not sure though i
            just let her keep talking), the bottom needs to be SOLID and heavily
            fastened to counter the pounding, have all the proper floatation
            installed per plans and keep the hatches sealed, have a good
            outboard and navigation equipment and lights. Specifically she
            recommended a 5hp honda 4 stroke which has a small alternator, a
            small solar panel on the cabin roof and LED navigation and interior
            lighting powered by 2 6 volt batteries.
            That about sums it up. Bruce? If you live in CA I think she
            specifically mentioned your boat as being the first navigator
            relatively true to plans almost completed that they know of. She
            said she liked the way it looked but never did like it on paper.
            Jason Stancil
          • Frank San Miguel
            Thanks for the great info Jason. Bruce - I can t find the link to your Micro pictures anywhere, though I know I ve seen them before. Can you please repost the
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
              Thanks for the great info Jason.

              Bruce - I can't find the link to your Micro pictures anywhere, though
              I know I've seen them before. Can you please repost the link?

              Thanks,

              Frank San Miguel
              Landenberg, PA
              - current project, nesting mice (http://www.fsanmiguel.com/boat/mice/)
              - Eagerly waiting to hear from Suzanne and Phil about their
              participation in a Gloucester messabout this year. Obviously it won't
              be the weekend of the Kingston messabout...
              - AS-29 still for sale or trade, though planning to fix the chine logs
              this spring and get her on the water...


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
              > That about sums it up. Bruce? If you live in CA I think she
              > specifically mentioned your boat as being the first navigator
              > relatively true to plans almost completed that they know of. She
              > said she liked the way it looked but never did like it on paper.
              > Jason Stancil
            • Nels
              ... wrote: She said what limits the micro the ... enough ... I, made that very enquiry last October and have the hand written fax response from Phil telling me
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
                wrote:
                She said what limits the micro the
                > most for larger crossings is the hull speed is so low you expose
                > yourself more. If i was interested in a bigger trip i should
                > consider a LM navigator and said the conversion would be easy
                enough
                > to do and they could do the drawings but no one had asked.

                I, made that very enquiry last October and have the hand written fax
                response from Phil telling me they were too busy to consider a LM
                Navigator as well as a plywood Colonel Hasler plan. It seems they may
                be caught up a bit and might reconsider it?

                I am very skeptical that the alternator on the 5 hp Honda and a solar
                panel, will keep two 6 volt batteries charged - if they are the golf
                cart batteries which I believe they recommend. However that system
                would keep going for quite awhile with the small loads imposed by LED
                lighting. A good quality 110 battery charger would also be needed,
                for when one was in port.

                Are there any other upgrades to the MICRO and LM plans that were
                mentioned? Did you happen to mention the changes as recommended by
                Peter Lenihan and get their observations? I know Phil is very pleased
                with LESTAT which he confirmed again to me in his fax.

                A fully upgraded version of a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR might be a
                worthwhile article for MAIB magazine. Maybe including a non
                kerphlumping rounded bow. (Is that the correct German term?)

                It would need a whole new name. Any suggestions? Anyone else
                interested? With a Yamaha T9.9 it would be a fully capable
                motorsailer of some merit I would suggest and probably at about 1/4
                the price and complexity of any other design.

                Cheers, Nels
              • Jason Stancil
                If i was interested in a bigger trip i should ... fax ... may ... Not sure about their workload but she said it would be easy enough to adapt the current plans
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                  If i was interested in a bigger trip i should
                  > > consider a LM navigator and said the conversion would be easy
                  > enough
                  > > to do and they could do the drawings but no one had asked.
                  >
                  > I, made that very enquiry last October and have the hand written
                  fax
                  > response from Phil telling me they were too busy to consider a LM
                  > Navigator as well as a plywood Colonel Hasler plan. It seems they
                  may
                  > be caught up a bit and might reconsider it?

                  Not sure about their workload but she said it would be easy enough
                  to adapt the current plans with a navigator house and rig. That's
                  why she had figured there was'nt much interest.....if people wanted
                  it the would just do it.

                  > I am very skeptical that the alternator on the 5 hp Honda and a
                  solar
                  > panel, will keep two 6 volt batteries charged - if they are the
                  golf
                  > cart batteries which I believe they recommend. However that system
                  > would keep going for quite awhile with the small loads imposed by
                  LED
                  > lighting. A good quality 110 battery charger would also be needed,
                  > for when one was in port.

                  The point was to keep the electrical system simple, like the
                  boat.....no microwaves here (like bruce's boat....nice touch). She
                  said the alternator was pretty wimpy on the honda but it is the
                  smallest outboard they know of with an alternator and could fully
                  charge the batteries with a couple hours of motorsailing. The
                  electrical system is intended to power LED navigation lights and not
                  much more. My dad ran 2 cheap and small 5 yr old 12 volts with a 5
                  amp solar panel on his stonehorse. One battery was reserved to start
                  the yanmar and the other was for system electronics.......even if
                  you didn't start the engine for weeks on end and ran your
                  nav./anchor lights from dusk till dawn that one panel running all
                  day would keep the lights running all night and battery was almost
                  always @ 12.5 volts by nightfall. However if you played the radio
                  all day, you could'nt make it through the night.....but that was
                  with incadesent bulbs, i'm willing to bet for ever hour you burned
                  the old style lights you can burn LED for 4 hrs.

                  >
                  > Are there any other upgrades to the MICRO and LM plans that were
                  > mentioned? Did you happen to mention the changes as recommended by
                  > Peter Lenihan and get their observations? I know Phil is very
                  pleased
                  > with LESTAT which he confirmed again to me in his fax.

                  She did'nt say what the upgrades were and i did'nt ask, she just
                  said my current plans are dated. Maybe she just wanted me to buy
                  some more stuff? :)

                  > A fully upgraded version of a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR might be a
                  > worthwhile article for MAIB magazine. Maybe including a non
                  > kerphlumping rounded bow. (Is that the correct German term?)
                  >
                  > It would need a whole new name. Any suggestions? Anyone else
                  > interested? With a Yamaha T9.9 it would be a fully capable
                  > motorsailer of some merit I would suggest and probably at about
                  1/4
                  > the price and complexity of any other design.

                  Not that i need a boat that big but it would be a sweet one, the
                  space of a 30 footer for sure, is that still mico cruising?.....Nels
                  what do you think of the seabird with the pilot house....it's got to
                  be a little less kerphlumping than any micro could ever be.

                  Jason
                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... http://community.webshots.com/album/121069753OCENAu It was interesting to read of SA s comments about the need for bottom strength for safety in a storm
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                    --- Frank San Miguel wrote:
                    > Can you please repost
                    > the link?

                    http://community.webshots.com/album/121069753OCENAu

                    It was interesting to read of SA's comments
                    about the need for bottom strength for
                    safety in a storm against pounding.

                    Note that in Micro Navigator, as in other
                    designs, [such as Dakota/Wyoming], PB&F
                    specify the use of floor beams
                    [which double as the faces of the berths].


                    They wrote in MAIB:
                    "Incidentally, one side effect of the new cabin
                    layout is the further stiffening of the bottom
                    fore and aft."
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... Ever considered a Jessie Cooper? You could safely upsize the cabin windows using Lexan, and have a full size mattress for your berth. :)
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                      --- Nels wrote:
                      > a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR

                      Ever considered a Jessie Cooper?

                      You could safely upsize the cabin
                      windows using Lexan, and have a full
                      size mattress for your berth. :)
                    • Frank San Miguel
                      holy cow. Didn t you just start this a few months ago! What a beauty. Awesome job! Frank
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                        holy cow. Didn't you just start this a few months ago! What a
                        beauty. Awesome job!

                        Frank

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                        > --- Frank San Miguel wrote:
                        > > Can you please repost
                        > > the link?
                        >
                        > http://community.webshots.com/album/121069753OCENAu
                        >
                        > It was interesting to read of SA's comments
                        > about the need for bottom strength for
                        > safety in a storm against pounding.
                        >
                        > Note that in Micro Navigator, as in other
                        > designs, [such as Dakota/Wyoming], PB&F
                        > specify the use of floor beams
                        > [which double as the faces of the berths].
                        >
                        >
                        > They wrote in MAIB:
                        > "Incidentally, one side effect of the new cabin
                        > layout is the further stiffening of the bottom
                        > fore and aft."
                      • Nels
                        ... Hi Bruce and Jason, Of course I have considered Jesse Cooper, as well as Seabird updated, especially when I had planned to live aboard on a more long-term
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                          > --- Nels wrote:
                          > > a LONG MICRO NAVIGATOR
                          >
                          > Ever considered a Jessie Cooper?
                          >
                          > You could safely upsize the cabin
                          > windows using Lexan, and have a full
                          > size mattress for your berth. :)

                          Hi Bruce and Jason,

                          Of course I have considered Jesse Cooper, as well as Seabird updated,
                          especially when I had planned to live aboard on a more long-term
                          basis. Then when I realized the capability of the MICRO series, I
                          down-sized my requirements and gained the big advantage of
                          trailerability. (The fastest sailboat in the world is one that fits
                          nicely on a trailer.)

                          PCB gives a good summary of the weaknesses of JC on page 369 of
                          BWAOM. He then designed the AS19 and AS29 to overcome these
                          deficiences. LONG MICRO already had all the AS design features,
                          except for the double bed. JC might still be a good choice if one was
                          more or less permanently located in a deep water berth.

                          Seabird is a beautiful alternative but has several challenges that I
                          am not that interested in. I like the instant boat building method
                          rather than stitch and glue. Seabird is quite a bit wider, is not as
                          beachable and actually does not have as much interior space because
                          of the double chines. Also I am not sure how stable she would be in a
                          dry-out situation with that narrow bottom. (Which PCB says makes
                          her "tiddly at anchor.)

                          Seabird would be more expensive to build, does not have that nice
                          yawl rig, does not have near the storage space in the hold - again
                          because of the multichines and the cooking area taking up most of the
                          space.

                          In a LM with pilothouse, I have figured out a way to have room for a
                          berth that would convert to a double, in the forward section and
                          quickly flip up to go to the f'ward hatch. And then have a regular
                          galley with stand-up headroom. One can shower in the forward well and
                          there is still space for a pump-out head opposite the galley. If you
                          have ever seen the interior of some of the campervan conversions you
                          will see that they have several clever solutions.

                          To me the 20 ft length, sahllow keel, and 6 foot beam is still
                          convenient ot trail and launch at most ramps. I firmly believe that
                          the MICRO series gives the best bang for the buck if you are not
                          turned off by the visual aspects. As somebody once said, few people
                          understand that the looks they detest are the very features that make
                          it work so well!

                          Cheers, Nels
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Eletrical usage can be calculated. Using a 300watt microwave for five minutes is negligible. Extended usage of 100 watt lights, stereo amp, [or a 12V
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                            --- Jason Stancil wrote:
                            > ...no microwaves here (like bruce's

                            Eletrical usage can be calculated.

                            Using a 300watt microwave for five
                            minutes is negligible. Extended
                            usage of 100 watt lights, stereo amp,
                            [or a 12V refrigerator, like with
                            Champlain] is how to run up the amp
                            hours!

                            The WWWeb has a lot of info on this,
                            mostly aimed at motorhome/RV off-
                            grid'ers.

                            My calculation is for Micro Navigator
                            to charge up all week on my 44 Watts
                            of photovoltaic panels, and draw down
                            on Sat. & Sunday. I also will carry
                            a beefy 12V battery charger as backup.

                            Twin Trojan T-105 6V batteries hold
                            a lot more energy [440AH] than one 12V
                            group 27 battery [105AH].

                            Champlain as designed, with four 8D
                            12V batteries, holds 900 AH.

                            I considered LED lights, but decided
                            it was too expensive. Buying more
                            battery/PV and using incandescent
                            lights was cheaper IMO than using LED's.
                          • Bruce Hallman
                            ... [Thanks] No, I started in September 2002, and have averaged about 10 manhours per week, with more than 550 hours [and $1500] into it so far.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                              --- Frank San Miguel:
                              > Didn't you just start
                              > this a few months
                              > ago!

                              [Thanks] No, I started
                              in September 2002, and have
                              averaged about 10 manhours
                              per week, with more than
                              550 hours [and $1500] into
                              it so far.
                            • Frank San Miguel
                              I remember you starting, but forgot exactly when you started. My how time flies!
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                                I remember you starting, but forgot exactly when you started. My how
                                time flies!

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                                > --- Frank San Miguel:
                                > > Didn't you just start
                                > > this a few months
                                > > ago!
                                >
                                > [Thanks] No, I started
                                > in September 2002, and have
                                > averaged about 10 manhours
                                > per week, with more than
                                > 550 hours [and $1500] into
                                > it so far.
                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... 25 6 x 7 6 is trailerable. though not a small as a LM. The J.C. flat bottom had advantages over the fin keel of L.M. when it comes sitting on a trailer.
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                                  --- Nels
                                  > Jesse Cooper,
                                  > gained the big
                                  > advantage of
                                  > trailerability.

                                  25'6 x 7'6" is trailerable.
                                  though not a small as a LM.

                                  The J.C. flat bottom had advantages
                                  over the fin keel of L.M. when
                                  it comes sitting on a trailer.

                                  They both have similar amounts
                                  of ballast.

                                  I bet that 25'6" could be
                                  cut down to 24' by giving
                                  J.C. a bow transom without
                                  much affect, if any.

                                  The fact that JC has a top
                                  deck, where you can walk from
                                  stern to bow makes it a lot
                                  bigger boat measured in 'sprawl
                                  space'.

                                  One drawback of a Navigator style
                                  cabin is that the roof of the
                                  cabin doesn't serve double duty
                                  as a deck, nor is there any easy
                                  way to walk between the front to the
                                  aft decks. Plus, the Chinese Gaff
                                  rig has so much running rigging that
                                  the forward deck is effectively unusable.
                                • RKAMILS@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 4/1/2004 4:04:36 PM Central Standard Time, bruce@hallman.org writes: considered LED lights, but decided it was too expensive. Buying more
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                                    In a message dated 4/1/2004 4:04:36 PM Central Standard Time,
                                    bruce@... writes:
                                    considered LED lights, but decided
                                    it was too expensive. Buying more
                                    battery/PV and using incandescent
                                    lights was cheaper IMO than using LED's
                                    True, LED lights are expensive. They have another advantage besides low amp
                                    draw, however. They can be made totally waterproof as you don't have to
                                    change bulbs. This may not matter to all of you who will only be in fresh water,
                                    but when I became a live aboard on the Roberts Spray 28 I built, and got out
                                    into saltwater I did indeed have problems with corrosion cutting out my nav
                                    lights. I will spend the money on the one I'm building now (Bantam) because nav
                                    lights that don't work are trouble.


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Nels
                                    ... Actually the shallow keel is an advantge as it raises the chines up above the fenders of the trailer. ... I believe JC is twice as heavy. The 480 lb of
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 1, 2004
                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                                      > 25'6 x 7'6" is trailerable.
                                      > though not a small as a LM.
                                      >
                                      > The J.C. flat bottom had advantages
                                      > over the fin keel of L.M. when
                                      > it comes sitting on a trailer.

                                      Actually the shallow keel is an advantge as it raises the chines up
                                      above the fenders of the trailer.

                                      > They both have similar amounts
                                      > of ballast.

                                      I believe JC is twice as heavy. The 480 lb of inside steel ballest
                                      shown on the plans is not enough from what I have heard. But I will
                                      certainly ask PCB&F when I talk to them. The fact that they have
                                      pretty much abandened the JC design and continue to upgrade and tweak
                                      the MICRO series I find very interesting.

                                      Chuck Merrell probably has the best JC example, but he said that if
                                      he built another it would have the full length keel like LM

                                      http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/pages/junkboy.htm

                                      Unfortunately he never completed the re-design that would have
                                      overcome some of the original weaknesses.

                                      Having all that deckspace, certainly is attractive. Yet being down
                                      inside the boat and having full visibility seems to be the direction
                                      that PCB&F are going in.

                                      Cheers, Nels
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