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Re: [bolger] Re: Common Sense Boats which site to buy from?

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... My guess is that there never was a mutually agreed agreement . When LaRowe commissioned Micro, Old Shoe, et al, and Wolfard commissioned Idaho: Did they
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 10, 2003
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      --- bgbeck55 wrote:
      > I have to wonder if Bolger's
      > original agreement with first Elrowe
      > LaRowe, then Bernie Wolfard were
      > legally binding, and hence, not
      > actionable. In reality, none of us
      > know the whole story.

      My guess is that there never was a
      mutually agreed 'agreement'. When
      LaRowe commissioned Micro, Old Shoe,
      et al, and Wolfard commissioned Idaho:
      Did they buy the design, or the rights
      to build one boat of the design?

      I think that the vast majority of
      Bolger commissioned designs are for
      the rights to build one boat of the
      design. Are there any exceptions?

      I recall that Bolger wrote of one of
      his 'Light Dory' designs that he no
      longer owned the design, and that
      is why he went on to design another
      similar dory.

      LaRowe and Wolfard might have not
      been in agreement with Bolger about
      these ownership rights when they
      commissioned the designs.
    • Zack Tiger
      Mr. Lenihan makes a good point here. I have in the past and continue to build model ships. One of the best sources for plans has been Taubman s plan service.
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 10, 2003
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        Mr. Lenihan makes a good point here. I have in the
        past and continue to build model ships. One of the
        best sources for plans has been Taubman's plan
        service. When the venerable Mr. Abe Taubman's health
        took a serious turn for the worse, a group of friends
        and associates stepped in and ran the mail order side
        of the business in trust, with all proceeds going to
        the family to offset Abe's health care costs. Perhaps
        the friends in PCB and FRIENDS could work out a
        similar set-up. Mr. Payson and PCB seem to have a good
        relationship,so perhaps he could be the sole source
        via his internet site.
        The more time Phil has to devote to "business" the
        less time he has to help builders, answer
        correspondance,and generate new designs.
        Shawn
        --- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
        > I agree Peter. Bolger should do what Bolger does
        > best; design
        > boats. I'm not saying he should stop and stuff
        > envelopes or learn
        > website construction. There are alternatives and
        > these could be
        > exploited. Payson's website is an example. I doubt
        > seriously if he
        > knows much about it's creation or operation,. He
        > just gets the
        > product out from orders generated. If PCB&F had the
        > same or similar
        > set up, then the question of "Who do I order from?"
        > and the "CSD/CSB
        > controversy" would go away.
        > Bruce
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan"
        > <lestat@b...> wrote:
        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55"
        > <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
        > > Other than the designs sold by Payson,I
        > > > doubt if anyone would know about PCB&F.Harold
        > has a catalog of
        > > sorts
        > > > and a web presence, done for him by someone
        > else. Bolger or
        > > > (Altenberger) could do the same but won't and
        > won't let anyone
        > else
        > > > do it for them
        > >
        > > Considering how long it takes to get a design done
        > by the good
        > > offices of PCB&Fs, I suspect that they are very
        > much up to their
        > ears
        > > with work and the demand doesn't appear to be even
        > close to
        > slowing
        > > down any.The last thing they would need now is a
        > "web presence" or
        > > any other device to further
        > consume/interupt/disturb their time.
        > > I am most grateful that Phil Bolger did not retire
        > at 65 like most
        > > and that he continues to put out remarkable
        > designs at 70 is
        > > something not to be taken lightly.
        > > For what it's worth; I would be happy with a web
        > site,done after
        > his
        > > passing, where his final lifetime output of
        > designs and writings
        > > could be properly assembled and displayed and
        > perhaps existing
        > plans
        > > could then be sold through the site to off-set the
        > cost of
        > > maintaining it and to enrich his estate..........
        > >
        > >
        > > Sincerely,
        > >
        > > Peter Lenihan
        >
        >


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      • Zack Tiger
        Mr. Lenihan makes a good point here. I have in the past and continue to build model ships. One of the best sources for plans has been Taubman s plan service.
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 10, 2003
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          Mr. Lenihan makes a good point here. I have in the
          past and continue to build model ships. One of the
          best sources for plans has been Taubman's plan
          service. When the venerable Mr. Abe Taubman's health
          took a serious turn for the worse, a group of friends
          and associates stepped in and ran the mail order side
          of the business in trust, with all proceeds going to
          the family to offset Abe's health care costs. Perhaps
          the friends in PCB and FRIENDS could work out a
          similar set-up. Mr. Payson and PCB seem to have a good
          relationship,so perhaps he could be the sole source
          via his internet site.
          The more time Phil has to devote to "business" the
          less time he has to help builders, answer
          correspondance,and generate new designs.
          Shawn
          --- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
          > I agree Peter. Bolger should do what Bolger does
          > best; design
          > boats. I'm not saying he should stop and stuff
          > envelopes or learn
          > website construction. There are alternatives and
          > these could be
          > exploited. Payson's website is an example. I doubt
          > seriously if he
          > knows much about it's creation or operation,. He
          > just gets the
          > product out from orders generated. If PCB&F had the
          > same or similar
          > set up, then the question of "Who do I order from?"
          > and the "CSD/CSB
          > controversy" would go away.
          > Bruce
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan"
          > <lestat@b...> wrote:
          > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55"
          > <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
          > > Other than the designs sold by Payson,I
          > > > doubt if anyone would know about PCB&F.Harold
          > has a catalog of
          > > sorts
          > > > and a web presence, done for him by someone
          > else. Bolger or
          > > > (Altenberger) could do the same but won't and
          > won't let anyone
          > else
          > > > do it for them
          > >
          > > Considering how long it takes to get a design done
          > by the good
          > > offices of PCB&Fs, I suspect that they are very
          > much up to their
          > ears
          > > with work and the demand doesn't appear to be even
          > close to
          > slowing
          > > down any.The last thing they would need now is a
          > "web presence" or
          > > any other device to further
          > consume/interupt/disturb their time.
          > > I am most grateful that Phil Bolger did not retire
          > at 65 like most
          > > and that he continues to put out remarkable
          > designs at 70 is
          > > something not to be taken lightly.
          > > For what it's worth; I would be happy with a web
          > site,done after
          > his
          > > passing, where his final lifetime output of
          > designs and writings
          > > could be properly assembled and displayed and
          > perhaps existing
          > plans
          > > could then be sold through the site to off-set the
          > cost of
          > > maintaining it and to enrich his estate..........
          > >
          > >
          > > Sincerely,
          > >
          > > Peter Lenihan
          >
          >


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          Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
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        • doug6949
          ... I think you are correct. PCB is not a business minded person - just a great designer. The whole issue of intellectual property rights is a scary one. I
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 11, 2003
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
            > My guess is that there never was a
            > mutually agreed 'agreement'. When
            > LaRowe commissioned Micro, Old Shoe,
            > et al, and Wolfard commissioned Idaho:
            > Did they buy the design, or the rights
            > to build one boat of the design?

            I think you are correct. PCB is not a business
            minded person - just a great designer.

            The whole issue of intellectual property rights
            is a scary one. I produce design drawings for
            a living. One particular design (not done on
            contract) had so much promise I promptly got on
            a plane and flew to Washington to do my patent
            search.

            While there I stumbled upon (actually, let myself
            in through an unsecured back door) an old and
            savvy patent examiner at the PTO. His words were
            "A patent is only as good as your ability to
            defend it in court against predators." His advice
            was to get the product on the market, sell hard,
            then find someone to buy the business before the
            sharks close in. I did and it worked.

            My point is that Phil Bolger is fortunate that CSD
            is the only one (or one of few) pirating his work.
            Transfer PCB's work to CAD drawings, add a few
            "improvements", change a few numbers and anyone
            could quite legally and unethically pirate his work.
            It's a testament to the good nature of the boating
            community that this sort of thing is not common.

            Doug
          • Nels
            ... I would tend to agree and I am sure Mr. Bolger would. It seems to that his collaboration with Dynamite Payson was a wonderful event for folks who love
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 11, 2003
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <prototype@c...> wrote:
              > I think you are correct. PCB is not a business
              > minded person - just a great designer.

              I would tend to agree and I am sure Mr. Bolger would. It seems to
              that his collaboration with Dynamite Payson was a wonderful event for
              folks who love small boats but don't have much money. PCB basically
              adapted ideas he had - to be produced in plywood - and Dynamite
              tested them out and Phil allowed him to sell the plans and likely
              charged a nominal royalty.

              The late Elrow Larowe commisioned a few designs and likely got
              permsission to advertise and market plans as well. He did it purely
              out of love for the designs with no intention of making money. He was
              already retired and on a pension. He probably paid a small royalty as
              well.

              When Bernie took over Elrowe's business he obviously had PCB's
              permission to market the plans and Phil even added a few more, some
              specifically to answer wish lists for Bernie. Fish Cat and Idaho come
              to mind but this was at a particularly creative period and Mr. Bolger
              was cranking out exciting designs much quicker than anyone could
              build prototypes. The Birdwatcher and Microtrawler variations and the
              State's designs, just to mention a few.

              Now here is where I think things went awry. Bernie Wolfard really
              thought he could make a good living out of his passion for building
              and trying out Mr. Bolger's designs and selling the plans through
              catalogues and newsletters. Being a secondary suppplier for materials
              and even producing kits. Wrong! It didn't work despite his best
              efforts and here is perhaps why:

              1. You can't get rich selling to poor people.

              2. Most of his customers were dreamers and not really buyers.

              3. He was spending most of his time, money and efforts promoting
              plans, offering help and advice to free loaders and getting more and
              more in the hole financewise.

              So he lowered his prices and got even more products - but there
              really wasn't a market to support the business. He could not
              encourage prototype builders to follow through and everyone was
              waiting for the other shoe to fall. Eventually he got fed up, and was
              behind on his royalty payments because he was broke.

              He ended up basically giving away the business to another gentleman
              who probably feels he can make a living at it to. However - although
              Bernie had permission to market many of the newer plans from PCB -
              that did not give him the right to sell that persmission to someone
              else. And that is where it all fell apart.

              Meanwhile Dynamite continued to sell plans as well as books and some
              other items. He is a very astute business man, and I am sure knows
              that you won't make a living selling small boat plans and therefore
              runs it as a hobby with no intention of making a living at it. His
              plans and services are a way underpriced. (You can purchase a boat
              plan from him for less than what a carton of cigarettes costs in
              Canada in most places.) By comparison, what PCB&F charge seems high,
              yet their prices are low compared to most places - even though many
              people complain about them being unreasonable.

              So what we end up with is proof again of an old adage: If you sell
              yourself too short, others will as well.

              The main problem is that this is a very limited market and if we
              don't adequately support it - the suppplies will disappear. And I
              include MAIB, in this scenario as well.

              That's how I see it, based on my own experience as a small business
              person.

              Nels
            • stampbrat
              ... some ... come ... Actually Fishcat was a LaRowe design as well as what we call the CSD Pirogue . See http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/mnl05.htm
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 11, 2003
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                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <prototype@c...> wrote:
                >
                > ....When Bernie took over Elrowe's business he obviously had PCB's
                > permission to market the plans and Phil even added a few more,
                some
                > specifically to answer wish lists for Bernie. Fish Cat and Idaho
                come
                > to mind .....
                > Nels

                Actually "Fishcat" was a LaRowe design as well as what we call
                the "CSD Pirogue". See
                http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/mnl05.htm

                Brat
              • John Spoering
                Hi All - I think Peter has the right idea. PB and his wife run what must be pretty much a 2 man operation and the output is nothing short of prodigious. For
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 11, 2003
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                  Hi All -

                  I think Peter has the right idea. PB and his wife run what must be pretty much a 2 man operation and the output is nothing short of prodigious. For now any one interested in bolger designs has plenty of info available to them. Get his books - new and used, go online to Yahoo's Bolger site & join-up, talk freely about your needs there and lastly FAX PB&F directly - the answeres to your questions come back very quickly. That's more than enough for now.

                  Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... .................^^^^^^ Better put, builders . There just might be a real market selling to the dreamers. Lower the prices on plans, selling them as
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 11, 2003
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                    --- Nels wrote:
                    > 2. Most of his customers were dreamers
                    > and not really buyers.
                    .................^^^^^^

                    Better put, "builders".

                    There just might be a real market selling
                    to the dreamers. Lower the prices on
                    plans, selling them as 'study plans only'
                    for $20 each. Make it up on volume.

                    I would be a real buyer for a deal like
                    that!.............^^^^^
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