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Micro Navigator rig Questions

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  • mannthree
    I have just viewed Bruce Hallman s Micro Navigator and was very impressed with his fine work on the design. I own a Micro and sail it on Sydney Harbour in
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 16, 2003
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      I have just viewed Bruce Hallman's Micro Navigator and was very
      impressed with his fine work on the design. I own a Micro and sail
      it on Sydney Harbour in Australia and have recently been thinking
      about converting the standard Micro rig to that of the Navigator, but
      without the full pilot house conversion. I am interested in the
      Navigator rig because of its apparent ease of reefing because I find
      that the standard ig is not easy to reef if the wind picks up
      suddenly. Also can anyone direct me to where I can get the full
      specifications for the rig (Would this be Phil Bolger and Friends
      etc)?

      Also does anyone have a quick reefing method for the Micro?
      Many Thanks,

      John Mann

      PS My new email address is johnmann@...
    • Hugo Tyson
      Yes I think Phil Bolger & Friends would be your best bet as C.S.D (Common Sense Designs) has a rather dubious reputation about reliability and quality for
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 16, 2003
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        Yes I think Phil Bolger & Friends would be your best bet as C.S.D (Common Sense Designs) has a rather dubious reputation about reliability and quality for sending plans. From other people's experience in the Bolger group, getting plans from them if you're lucky could take months, if at all and they may be just poor quality photo copies!..

        Maybe some member of the Bolger at Yahoo group could help you with the specifications of the Micro Navigator Rig. Peter Lenihan springs to mind as he seems to be very knowlegable for a Canadian!! (Only joking you Canadians!!)

        Hugo Tyson, Tasmania.
        mannthree <atonkin@...> wrote:
        Also can anyone direct me to where I can get the full
        specifications for the rig (Would this be Phil Bolger and Friends
        etc)?

        Also does anyone have a quick reefing method for the Micro?
        Many Thanks,

        John Mann

        PS My new email address is johnmann@...


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      • Nels
        ... the specifications of the Micro Navigator Rig. Peter Lenihan springs to mind as he seems to be very knowlegable for a Canadian!! (Only joking you
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 16, 2003
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Hugo Tyson <hhetyson@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Maybe some member of the Bolger at Yahoo group could help you with
          the specifications of the Micro Navigator Rig. Peter Lenihan springs
          to mind as he seems to be very knowlegable for a Canadian!! (Only
          joking you Canadians!!)
          >
          > Hugo Tyson, Tasmania.

          "Seems to be very knowledgable" is the operative term here - but only
          to a Tasmaniac:-)

          Actually, Bruce Hallman, recommends purchasing the Navigator
          supplemental sheet - for the sail plan, as does Derek Waters who
          converted his standard MICRO to a Chinese gaff. There was a
          discussion thread about his conversion over in Bolger2 and also some
          very sage advice regarding reefing the standard rig which includes
          commentary from Peter the Pirate Lenihan.

          In addition there is lots of info on this site from a year or so ago.
          Seems that this is a recurring subject - which seems reasonable,
          since the Navigator rig has some interesting capabilities - not the
          least being a shorter mast.

          But a lot more cordage!!!

          Cheers, Nels (Reporting from the snow covered Canadian prairies where
          the biggest annual single-day sporting event in Canada takes place
          today. The 91st Grey Cup Football Game Between the Edmonton Eskimos
          and the Montreal Alouettes!)
        • Derek Waters
          Hi John. The Navigator upgrade sheet is as you suggest available from the Bolgers at the Gloucester address. If you have not seen the MAIB article published a
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 16, 2003
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            Hi John.

            The Navigator upgrade sheet is as you suggest available from the Bolgers at
            the Gloucester address. If you have not seen the MAIB article published a
            while back, Chuck Merrell has a scan on-line at
            http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/

            No dimensions are given, but most of the other information is there.

            cheers
            Derek
          • Bruce Hallman
            ... Only available from PB&F. As you have a Micro already, they sell just the upgrade drawing, which has the dimensions for the sail, but the cabin scale
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 16, 2003
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              --- mannthree wrote:
              > Also can anyone direct me to where I can
              > get the full specifications for the rig

              Only available from PB&F. As you have a
              Micro already, they sell just the 'upgrade'
              drawing, which has the dimensions for the
              sail, but the cabin 'scale from the drawing'
              and cut and fit proposition.

              Also, there is a extensive write up of the
              Chinese Gaff Cat Yawl rig 'theory', options
              etc. in their book 103 Sailboat Rigs.
            • mannthree
              ... interested in the info on Bolger2 and maybe Bolger3, but I don t know how to reference these sites. Can anyone help? Regards, John Mann ... with ...
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 17, 2003
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                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Hugo Tyson <hhetyson@y...> wrote:
                > > Thanks for all the useful references. I would be particularly
                interested in the info on Bolger2 and maybe Bolger3, but I don't
                know how to reference these sites. Can anyone help?

                Regards,

                John Mann


                > > Maybe some member of the Bolger at Yahoo group could help you
                with
                > the specifications of the Micro Navigator Rig. Peter Lenihan
                springs
                > to mind as he seems to be very knowlegable for a Canadian!! (Only
                > joking you Canadians!!)
                > >
                > > Hugo Tyson, Tasmania.
                >
                > "Seems to be very knowledgable" is the operative term here - but
                only
                > to a Tasmaniac:-)
                >
                > Actually, Bruce Hallman, recommends purchasing the Navigator
                > supplemental sheet - for the sail plan, as does Derek Waters who
                > converted his standard MICRO to a Chinese gaff. There was a
                > discussion thread about his conversion over in Bolger2 and also
                some
                > very sage advice regarding reefing the standard rig which includes
                > commentary from Peter the Pirate Lenihan.
                >
                > In addition there is lots of info on this site from a year or so
                ago.
                > Seems that this is a recurring subject - which seems reasonable,
                > since the Navigator rig has some interesting capabilities - not
                the
                > least being a shorter mast.
                >
                > But a lot more cordage!!!
                >
                > Cheers, Nels (Reporting from the snow covered Canadian prairies
                where
                > the biggest annual single-day sporting event in Canada takes place
                > today. The 91st Grey Cup Football Game Between the Edmonton
                Eskimos
                > and the Montreal Alouettes!)
              • Hugo Tyson
                Go to Yahoo homepage, click on groups, then do a search for Bolger2 or 3 and join! ... interested in the info on Bolger2 and maybe Bolger3, but I don t know
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 17, 2003
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                  Go to Yahoo homepage, click on groups, then do a search for Bolger2 or 3 and join!

                  mannthree <atonkin@...> wrote:--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Hugo Tyson <hhetyson@y...> wrote:
                  > > Thanks for all the useful references. I would be particularly
                  interested in the info on Bolger2 and maybe Bolger3, but I don't
                  know how to reference these sites. Can anyone help?

                  Regards,

                  John Mann


                  > > Maybe some member of the Bolger at Yahoo group could help you
                  with
                  > the specifications of the Micro Navigator Rig. Peter Lenihan
                  springs
                  > to mind as he seems to be very knowlegable for a Canadian!! (Only
                  > joking you Canadians!!)
                  > >
                  > > Hugo Tyson, Tasmania.
                  >
                  > "Seems to be very knowledgable" is the operative term here - but
                  only
                  > to a Tasmaniac:-)
                  >
                  > Actually, Bruce Hallman, recommends purchasing the Navigator
                  > supplemental sheet - for the sail plan, as does Derek Waters who
                  > converted his standard MICRO to a Chinese gaff. There was a
                  > discussion thread about his conversion over in Bolger2 and also
                  some
                  > very sage advice regarding reefing the standard rig which includes
                  > commentary from Peter the Pirate Lenihan.
                  >
                  > In addition there is lots of info on this site from a year or so
                  ago.
                  > Seems that this is a recurring subject - which seems reasonable,
                  > since the Navigator rig has some interesting capabilities - not
                  the
                  > least being a shorter mast.
                  >
                  > But a lot more cordage!!!
                  >
                  > Cheers, Nels (Reporting from the snow covered Canadian prairies
                  where
                  > the biggest annual single-day sporting event in Canada takes place
                  > today. The 91st Grey Cup Football Game Between the Edmonton
                  Eskimos
                  > and the Montreal Alouettes!)


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                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                • Peter Lenihan
                  ... I find ... Micro? ... John, Here are some things I ve learnt about reefing a MICRO based on my own experience and bit of wisdom I picked up in a book
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 17, 2003
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mannthree" <atonkin@b...> wrote:
                    I find
                    > that the standard ig is not easy to reef if the wind picks up
                    > suddenly. Also does anyone have a quick reefing method for the
                    Micro?
                    > Many Thanks,
                    >
                    > John Mann


                    John,
                    Here are some things I've learnt about reefing a MICRO based on
                    my own experience and bit of wisdom I picked up in a book somewhere
                    which states,more or less,"the best time to put a reef in is the
                    moment the thought crosses your mind". Indeed,things will be much
                    easier for you to do before the winds build up to greater force and
                    really convince you to finally reef. So that's it for the nugget
                    found in a book :-)
                    As for the practical operations,some prep work is required
                    before the boat leaves the quay.Namely; a stopper knot at the bitter
                    end of the snotter ideally fed under the legs of the snotter cleat on
                    the port side of the cabin roof/deck near the cockpit.The length of
                    the snotter should be such that when completely let out, the forward
                    end of the sprit boom clears the stem by a couple of inches.
                    Next,your main halyard needs to have some kind of marking on it to
                    use as a reference point when you lower the mainsail to its reefed
                    position.That is,a mark to indicate where the main halyard should
                    be,when the mainsail is reefed, as you snug it down on the starboard
                    cleat.With practice,you'll be able to eye-ball this just by looking
                    up at the position of the head of the sail on the mast. I am
                    presuming that you have a second downhaul attached already to the
                    second reef grommet and a loop of line already tied off on the second
                    reef luff grommet? I'm also presuming that your mainsail is hoisted
                    on sail track and not lines wrapped around the mast.
                    So, off we go! It's a bright blue sunny day and the winds are
                    fair at about 10 knots. You're happily gliding along on a reach
                    admiring the passing scenary and begin to notice that the winds are
                    becoming a wee bit gusty and that the gusts are hanging on for longer
                    stretches. Wishing to avoid panic-parties and other disruptions to
                    your otherwise wonderful day, you decide to reef.You proceed to haul
                    in tight on the mizzen sheet and snotter while slowly heading the
                    boat up into the wind, as if you were about to tack, but ease out the
                    mainsheet as the boat comes head to the wind.(Here comes the part
                    that must be done with confidence and a certain amount
                    of.....er...ah....effeciency! Practice makes perfect :-)) Just as the
                    boat is head to the wind,let the mainsheet run free as you postion
                    yourself at the companionway facing forward on your knees with tiller
                    held amidship between your feet.Smartly(quickly) release the snotter
                    and allow it to run free until stopped by your stopper knot.This will
                    immediately cause the sail to luff and lower the sprit boom to about
                    shoulder height.Now,grab hold of the sprit boom and haul it forward
                    so that you can slip the mainsail grommet loop off the end of the
                    sprit boom.Then,smartly release the main halyard to its pre-mark
                    postion and cleat it back.The mainsail will slide down the mast to
                    its"proper" reefed height as the sail flutters about.Once the main
                    halyard has been cleated back down(you can tidy up the loose line
                    later), grab both the sprit boom and sail together and drop the first
                    reef gromment loop over the end of the sprit boom,followed smartly by
                    snugging up the snotter line.This will instantly stop the sail from
                    all that fluttering around and make the next steps more enjoyable.Go
                    forward and snug down on the mainsail down-haul.Once this is
                    done,systematically roll the foot of the sail up into a tight
                    sauguage while tying in the reef lines and working your way back to
                    the cockpit.Coil up the loose mainsail halyard and resume your
                    desired course:-)
                    Just to not discourage you with what reads like a very involved
                    process, I can usually do the whole cycle in under 2 minites.The
                    exception being whenever I am trying to show off and screw something
                    up :-)
                    Practice doing the whole cycle while tied up to a quay(nose to
                    the wind) until you feel confident/comfortable with each step and get
                    your time under 2 minites.
                    And in case you think this is too easy, wait until you are
                    really stuck in strong winds and waves.For this situation, you may
                    experience some difficulty keeping the boats head up into the wind.
                    For those hairy moments, I've always relied on my outboard set at low
                    throttle to power me up into the wind and to keep me there.The
                    addition of a bungy cord or two to hold the tiller amidship can be a
                    help as can the presence of a crew member to hold the tiller.
                    Hopefully, it is understood that you have made yourself familiar
                    with how your MICRO handles your waters and,indeed your waters
                    themselves,ie; currents,tides etc......
                    Nevertheless, I've done most of my sailing alone and found all
                    of the above to work very well.The keys will be practice,practice and
                    a bit of practice.It's really not that hard and cartainly no need to
                    be slow either :-)

                    Hope this helps and forgive me if I over stated some things that may
                    already be obvious to you.

                    Sincerely,

                    Peter Lenihan, ex-MICRO owner/builder,lover of beer,sander of wood
                    and all around boat bum, from along the shores of the
                    St.Lawrence.............
                  • mannthree
                    ... Thank you for your explanation of the reefing method for the Micro. You may nor remember but I did consult you on various matters relating to Micro
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 17, 2003
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mannthree" <atonkin@b...> wrote:
                      > Peter,

                      Thank you for your explanation of the reefing method for the Micro.
                      You may nor remember but I did consult you on various matters
                      relating to Micro construction in the 18 months leading up to the
                      launching in Feb 2000,

                      Regards,

                      John MAnn

                      I find
                      > > that the standard ig is not easy to reef if the wind picks up
                      > > suddenly. Also does anyone have a quick reefing method for the
                      > Micro?
                      > > Many Thanks,
                      > >
                      > > John Mann
                      >
                      >
                      > John,
                      > Here are some things I've learnt about reefing a MICRO based
                      on
                      > my own experience and bit of wisdom I picked up in a book
                      somewhere
                      > which states,more or less,"the best time to put a reef in is the
                      > moment the thought crosses your mind". Indeed,things will be much
                      > easier for you to do before the winds build up to greater force
                      and
                      > really convince you to finally reef. So that's it for the nugget
                      > found in a book :-)
                      > As for the practical operations,some prep work is required
                      > before the boat leaves the quay.Namely; a stopper knot at the
                      bitter
                      > end of the snotter ideally fed under the legs of the snotter cleat
                      on
                      > the port side of the cabin roof/deck near the cockpit.The length
                      of
                      > the snotter should be such that when completely let out, the
                      forward
                      > end of the sprit boom clears the stem by a couple of inches.
                      > Next,your main halyard needs to have some kind of marking on it to
                      > use as a reference point when you lower the mainsail to its reefed
                      > position.That is,a mark to indicate where the main halyard should
                      > be,when the mainsail is reefed, as you snug it down on the
                      starboard
                      > cleat.With practice,you'll be able to eye-ball this just by
                      looking
                      > up at the position of the head of the sail on the mast. I am
                      > presuming that you have a second downhaul attached already to the
                      > second reef grommet and a loop of line already tied off on the
                      second
                      > reef luff grommet? I'm also presuming that your mainsail is
                      hoisted
                      > on sail track and not lines wrapped around the mast.
                      > So, off we go! It's a bright blue sunny day and the winds are
                      > fair at about 10 knots. You're happily gliding along on a reach
                      > admiring the passing scenary and begin to notice that the winds
                      are
                      > becoming a wee bit gusty and that the gusts are hanging on for
                      longer
                      > stretches. Wishing to avoid panic-parties and other disruptions to
                      > your otherwise wonderful day, you decide to reef.You proceed to
                      haul
                      > in tight on the mizzen sheet and snotter while slowly heading the
                      > boat up into the wind, as if you were about to tack, but ease out
                      the
                      > mainsheet as the boat comes head to the wind.(Here comes the part
                      > that must be done with confidence and a certain amount
                      > of.....er...ah....effeciency! Practice makes perfect :-)) Just as
                      the
                      > boat is head to the wind,let the mainsheet run free as you postion
                      > yourself at the companionway facing forward on your knees with
                      tiller
                      > held amidship between your feet.Smartly(quickly) release the
                      snotter
                      > and allow it to run free until stopped by your stopper knot.This
                      will
                      > immediately cause the sail to luff and lower the sprit boom to
                      about
                      > shoulder height.Now,grab hold of the sprit boom and haul it
                      forward
                      > so that you can slip the mainsail grommet loop off the end of the
                      > sprit boom.Then,smartly release the main halyard to its pre-mark
                      > postion and cleat it back.The mainsail will slide down the mast to
                      > its"proper" reefed height as the sail flutters about.Once the main
                      > halyard has been cleated back down(you can tidy up the loose line
                      > later), grab both the sprit boom and sail together and drop the
                      first
                      > reef gromment loop over the end of the sprit boom,followed smartly
                      by
                      > snugging up the snotter line.This will instantly stop the sail
                      from
                      > all that fluttering around and make the next steps more
                      enjoyable.Go
                      > forward and snug down on the mainsail down-haul.Once this is
                      > done,systematically roll the foot of the sail up into a tight
                      > sauguage while tying in the reef lines and working your way back
                      to
                      > the cockpit.Coil up the loose mainsail halyard and resume your
                      > desired course:-)
                      > Just to not discourage you with what reads like a very
                      involved
                      > process, I can usually do the whole cycle in under 2 minites.The
                      > exception being whenever I am trying to show off and screw
                      something
                      > up :-)
                      > Practice doing the whole cycle while tied up to a quay(nose
                      to
                      > the wind) until you feel confident/comfortable with each step and
                      get
                      > your time under 2 minites.
                      > And in case you think this is too easy, wait until you are
                      > really stuck in strong winds and waves.For this situation, you may
                      > experience some difficulty keeping the boats head up into the
                      wind.
                      > For those hairy moments, I've always relied on my outboard set at
                      low
                      > throttle to power me up into the wind and to keep me there.The
                      > addition of a bungy cord or two to hold the tiller amidship can be
                      a
                      > help as can the presence of a crew member to hold the tiller.
                      > Hopefully, it is understood that you have made yourself
                      familiar
                      > with how your MICRO handles your waters and,indeed your waters
                      > themselves,ie; currents,tides etc......
                      > Nevertheless, I've done most of my sailing alone and found
                      all
                      > of the above to work very well.The keys will be practice,practice
                      and
                      > a bit of practice.It's really not that hard and cartainly no need
                      to
                      > be slow either :-)
                      >
                      > Hope this helps and forgive me if I over stated some things that
                      may
                      > already be obvious to you.
                      >
                      > Sincerely,
                      >
                      > Peter Lenihan, ex-MICRO owner/builder,lover of beer,sander of wood
                      > and all around boat bum, from along the shores of the
                      > St.Lawrence.............
                    • Charles Balch
                      I m a proud new owner of a Bolger Micro that did not come with sails or motor. The previous owner could not find his plans when he sold the boat. I ve spent a
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 9 5:13 PM
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                        I'm a proud new owner of a Bolger Micro that did not come with sails
                        or motor. The previous owner could not find his plans when he sold
                        the boat.

                        I've spent a few hours searching this newslist and unable to find
                        answers to the following:
                        * Will a trolling motor be sufficient for getting off the lake should
                        the wind die? If so what thrust?
                        * Are the sail plans at Sailrite accurate?
                        http://quotesys2.sailrite.com/ShowAd.aspx?
                        id=4739&SourceID=5&BoatName=BOLGER%20MICRO
                        * Is it possible to get a diagram of the rigging?

                        Note: I have a much larger sail that I plan to have cut down to the
                        sail dimensions.

                        Thanks!
                        Charlie
                        "For Now" Yuma, AZ

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- mannthree wrote:
                        > > Also can anyone direct me to where I can
                        > > get the full specifications for the rig
                        >
                        > Only available from PB&F. As you have a
                        > Micro already, they sell just the 'upgrade'
                        > drawing, which has the dimensions for the
                        > sail, but the cabin 'scale from the drawing'
                        > and cut and fit proposition.
                        >
                        > Also, there is a extensive write up of the
                        > Chinese Gaff Cat Yawl rig 'theory', options
                        > etc. in their book 103 Sailboat Rigs.
                        >
                      • martin.me.roberts@bt.com
                        I own a Bolger Micro and I would say that a trolling motor is probably not enough. I use a Honda 5hp on a tidal stream river and It is sufficient. More would
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 11 1:30 AM
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                          I own a Bolger Micro and I would say that a trolling motor is probably
                          not enough. I use a Honda 5hp on a tidal stream river and It is
                          sufficient. More would not work, less - probably a bit.

                          As to the sail on Sailrite - the plan they shows is the one from my plan
                          pack and I would have thought they would have taken the measurements
                          from the plans?

                          Martin
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... I have tried a 3hp 2 stroke, which at full throttle doesn t get her up to hull speed, but does move her along good enough unless you are bucking a strong
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 11 6:58 AM
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                            On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:30 AM, <martin.me.roberts@...> wrote:
                            > I own a Bolger Micro and I would say that a trolling motor is probably
                            > not enough. I use a Honda 5hp on a tidal stream river and It is
                            > sufficient. More would not work, less - probably a bit.

                            I have tried a 3hp 2 stroke, which at full throttle doesn't get her up
                            to hull speed, but does move her along good enough unless you are
                            bucking a strong current. I have also tried a 9.9 hp 4 stroke, which
                            pushes her at hull speed, and pushes her uncomfortable fast even at
                            lowest throttle. (If I were a better OB mechanic I might be able to
                            tune the motor throttle to idle more slowly without stalling, but I am
                            not.)
                          • 9buck crowley
                            I run a 5 hp honda on my micro as well. It will push the boat up against a strong headwind and chop at hull speed. In a calm it does the same at very low rpm.
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 11 8:14 AM
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                              I run a 5 hp honda on my micro as well. It will push the boat up against a strong headwind and chop at hull speed. In a calm it does the same at very low rpm. If i were to do it over again I'd choose a Yamaha 4 hp four stroke. It would give me a better operating rpm for 80% of my usage which is in calm weather and enough power to get out of trouble if and when I needed it..
                              Your trolling motor will move the boat along nicely in a calm but for how long would be my question and I doubt that it would push the boat against a chop in a strong breeze.
                              Buck
                              ________________________________
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: bruce@...
                              > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:58:36 -0700
                              > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Micro Questions
                              >
                              >
                              > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 1:30 AM, wrote:
                              >> I own a Bolger Micro and I would say that a trolling motor is probably
                              >> not enough. I use a Honda 5hp on a tidal stream river and It is
                              >> sufficient. More would not work, less - probably a bit.
                              >
                              > I have tried a 3hp 2 stroke, which at full throttle doesn't get her up
                              > to hull speed, but does move her along good enough unless you are
                              > bucking a strong current. I have also tried a 9.9 hp 4 stroke, which
                              > pushes her at hull speed, and pushes her uncomfortable fast even at
                              > lowest throttle. (If I were a better OB mechanic I might be able to
                              > tune the motor throttle to idle more slowly without stalling, but I am
                              > not.)
                              >
                              >

                              _________________________________________________________________
                              It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk.
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                            • Myles J. Swift
                              I use a 3HP trolling motor mostly on a coastal lake with some strong wind. I corresponded with Phil Bolger on the point of engine size for Micro. He
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jul 11 2:59 PM
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                                I use a 3HP trolling motor mostly on a coastal lake with some strong wind. I corresponded with Phil Bolger on the point of engine size for Micro. He recommended 8hp. He said that is the lightest engine that will reliably make progress against the combination of river current, wind, and tide. He was talking about use on the coast from Boston up into Maine. Smaller 4 strokes were not available at that time.

                                MylesJ

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • mason smith
                                Some observations on a Honda 8 on the Micro. Very nice and of course all the power you can use, but two problems. One is that without modifying the taffrail
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jul 14 7:52 AM
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                                  Some observations on a Honda 8 on the Micro. Very nice and of course all the power you can use, but two problems. One is that without modifying the "taffrail" (if that's what you call it, the board across the top of the stern serving as mizzen partner, etc.) you can't tilt the motor up far enough to clear the water. It goes to the shallow-water position, and by notching the board to led the powerhead swing a bit further forward, and making a hardwood wedge to fasten to the motor-board to catch the trim-pin at a higher level, you could get the prop out of the water.
                                  The other problem is that when you're running the motor in its upper speed range, unless you move crew forward, the boat's wave will follow right up and over that motor-mount and into the stern-well. I don't like the powerhead being right at water-level and think that in some conditions it would get doused.
                                  So a comprehensive fix might mean a higher motor-mount and some more radical solution to the tilt problem. I wonder if Phil addressed these problems in any upgrades. My boat was made from Common Sense Design plans in 2002.
                                  By the way, my price is lowered to $6000.
                                  Mason Smith

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Bruce Hallman
                                  My Micro has the 1/4 bottom, (which works just fine). But the 1/2 bottom makes logical sense because it is overly strong in case of a oops, bump into the
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jul 14 8:08 AM
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                                    My Micro has the 1/4" bottom, (which works just fine). But the 1/2"
                                    bottom makes logical sense because it is overly strong in case of a
                                    'oops, bump into the dock' puncture. Therefore I wouldn't worry too
                                    much about the size of the butt straps, as the whole bottom is strong
                                    enough at 1/4" thick with standard sized butt straps.

                                    The bottom of the 31 foot Bolger Topaz design is made of two layers
                                    1/2" plywood to make a 1" bottom. This is achieved by staggering the
                                    edge joint layout of the top and the bottom layers by 2 feet. (With
                                    no butt straps.) This staggered joint method was easy to build, and
                                    seems very strong and sound.
                                  • 9buck crowley
                                    My honda five wouldn t clear the rail either. The solution for me was to use two layers of ply horizontally about a foot wide with a big radius cutout for the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jul 14 9:46 AM
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                                      My honda five wouldn't clear the rail either. The solution for me was to use two layers of ply horizontally about a foot wide with a big radius cutout for the motor to clear and more cutouts on either side just to lighten the whole assembly. If you'd like I could send you a picture of it.
                                      Buck
                                      ________________________________
                                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: masonsmith@...
                                      > Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:52:26 -0400
                                      > Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro Questions
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Some observations on a Honda 8 on the Micro. Very nice and of course all the power you can use, but two problems. One is that without modifying the "taffrail" (if that's what you call it, the board across the top of the stern serving as mizzen partner, etc.) you can't tilt the motor up far enough to clear the water. It goes to the shallow-water position, and by notching the board to led the powerhead swing a bit further forward, and making a hardwood wedge to fasten to the motor-board to catch the trim-pin at a higher level, you could get the prop out of the water.
                                      > The other problem is that when you're running the motor in its upper speed range, unless you move crew forward, the boat's wave will follow right up and over that motor-mount and into the stern-well. I don't like the powerhead being right at water-level and think that in some conditions it would get doused.
                                      > So a comprehensive fix might mean a higher motor-mount and some more radical solution to the tilt problem. I wonder if Phil addressed these problems in any upgrades. My boat was made from Common Sense Design plans in 2002.
                                      > By the way, my price is lowered to $6000.
                                      > Mason Smith
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.
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                                    • Tom
                                      Newbie here seriously considering a Micro build. I have read all I can find about the Micro, and although many comment favorably about the design, there seems
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 5, 2010
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                                        Newbie here seriously considering a Micro build. I have read all I can find about the Micro, and although many comment favorably about the design, there seems to be little specific detail about what makes it good. I would like to hear what experienced Micro owners / sailors feel the virtues of the design are, and what the faults or shortcoming are.
                                        Although it is described as a cruiser, I can't find many good pictures of the interior, and don't see any that appear to be set up for cruising for longer than a day sail. Curious - Why?
                                        Is one advised not to beach a Micro? I like shoal draft, but this seems to be marginally greater than what some consider shoal draft. (yes/no??)
                                        I would gladly buy the plans for a deeper dive, but like others have indicated here, I am frustrated by lack of response from FAX to PB&F. Are the plans from CSB the same in detail and quality?
                                        Lastly (for now), are there any Micro owners in the Lake Norman NC or Smith Mountain Lake VA area? I'd love to see one in the flesh, or better yet, hitch a ride.
                                        My use for the boat would be primarily on large inland lakes with occasional trip to coastal waters for long weekend to week long cruising. The boat would live in the (fresh) water year around moored at my dock.
                                        Considering the age of the Micro design, these questions have probably been beat around endlessly, but there doesn't seem to be a good synopsis of such information that I can find. Thanks for your inputs and patience! more questions to follow :-)
                                        Tom
                                      • William
                                        Tom, 1. Interior pictures are difficult to take in a small boat. You cannot get far enough to one end to get a good picture of the other end. The Micro
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 6, 2010
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                                          Tom,
                                          1. Interior pictures are difficult to take in a small boat. You cannot get far enough to one end to get a good picture of the other end. The Micro interior is simple; two bunk flats, a small space between, and a small counter-top area for cooking. The interior is larger in a plumb-sided sharpie than other 16 foot boats (boats with soft chines). But it's up to you how you want to store stuff in that interior. The primary storage is under the cockpit with some smaller storage areas under the counter-top and under the bunk flats.
                                          A benefit of the short external keel is that the interior is open and free of a centerboard trunk.
                                          2. Cruising. Peter Lenihan cruised Lestat extensively. Duckworks has a write-up of his trip (at least a week. Maybe two or three weeks?) to Lake Champlain. Roger Keyes, a 70+ year old gent from Oz has cruised for weeks on his LM (Paloma Blanco), and he has kept to sea for days on end. His tales are sitting in one of the Yahoo group folders and there are a couple pictures of his boat. The Ankes and their dogs lived in Zoon, their Long Micro for (a year?) in their driveway.
                                          3. I don't cruise in areas with extensive tides, so beaching my Long Micro has never been an option. Roger Keyes has beached his Micro. There's a great picture of Paloma Blanco drying out on a beach, her hull reflected in a pool of water. A framed version hangs in my living room.

                                          I have sailed my LM for three years now. I think my observations are in line with what Micro sailors would say. The boat is simple to rig, sail, and tend. The mizzen helps with self-steering to windward, reefing on the water, and stability at anchor. There is no standing rigging, so you can sheet the main well before the mast (or let it weather cock completely). These boats are deceptively fast off the wind (I have hit 7.2 knots in my LM, and have had hours of easy cruising at 6+ knots). I do not think M or LM goes well to windward in light winds (below about 6 knots), and they point "OK." If you
                                          prefer a boat which points high and want to race boats with deeper keels and headsails, you might be unhappy. The hull shape pound in the waves when motoring directly into the wind. The hull can slap a little in waves at anchor. Some people complain greatly about the latter- it hasn't bothered me much.

                                          Given your conditions (inland lakes), have you considered a Chebacco? I like many aspects of the Chebacco and would have built one, but chose an LM because of the heavily ballasted keel.

                                          Bill, in Texas
                                          Long Micro Pugnacious

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomoll@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Newbie here seriously considering a Micro build. I have read all I can find about the Micro, and although many comment favorably about the design, there seems to be little specific detail about what makes it good. I would like to hear what experienced Micro owners / sailors feel the virtues of the design are, and what the faults or shortcoming are.
                                          > Although it is described as a cruiser, I can't find many good pictures of the interior, and don't see any that appear to be set up for cruising for longer than a day sail. Curious - Why?
                                          > Is one advised not to beach a Micro? I like shoal draft, but this seems to be marginally greater than what some consider shoal draft. (yes/no??)
                                          > I would gladly buy the plans for a deeper dive, but like others have indicated here, I am frustrated by lack of response from FAX to PB&F. Are the plans from CSB the same in detail and quality?
                                          > Lastly (for now), are there any Micro owners in the Lake Norman NC or Smith Mountain Lake VA area? I'd love to see one in the flesh, or better yet, hitch a ride.
                                          > My use for the boat would be primarily on large inland lakes with occasional trip to coastal waters for long weekend to week long cruising. The boat would live in the (fresh) water year around moored at my dock.
                                          > Considering the age of the Micro design, these questions have probably been beat around endlessly, but there doesn't seem to be a good synopsis of such information that I can find. Thanks for your inputs and patience! more questions to follow :-)
                                          > Tom
                                          >
                                        • Dave Gentry
                                          I built one. The Micro is a micro cruiser, with spartan accommodations and good stowage for two - roomy, but without a lot of creature comforts. You don t need
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 6, 2010
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                                            I built one. The Micro is a micro cruiser, with spartan accommodations and good stowage for two - roomy, but without a lot of creature comforts.
                                            You don't need a cabin, at all, for daysailing . . . .

                                            Beach it all you want. It has a salient keel, though, so it won't sit completely upright. Plus, of course, you risk damaging said keel if there's wave action and the ground isn't not soft mud or the like. That hold true with any boat's bottom, though.

                                            CSB is NOT affiliated with Phil Bolger and Friends - though they (as CSD) were, originally. Nowadays the new owner is just stealing Bolger designs and refuses to pay royalties, etc to PB&F. Phil asked, and it's the consensus here, that we not business with them. All plans can be had through PB&F (eventually).

                                            BTW, a number of years ago I did buy (non-Bolger) kayak plans from them, not knowing any better. I was very disappointed with the service, the plans and, ultimately, with the boat itself.


                                            The Micro sounds just dandy for your aspirations, in any case.

                                            D




                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomoll@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Newbie here seriously considering a Micro build. I have read all I can find about the Micro, and although many comment favorably about the design, there seems to be little specific detail about what makes it good. I would like to hear what experienced Micro owners / sailors feel the virtues of the design are, and what the faults or shortcoming are.
                                            > Although it is described as a cruiser, I can't find many good pictures of the interior, and don't see any that appear to be set up for cruising for longer than a day sail. Curious - Why?
                                            > Is one advised not to beach a Micro? I like shoal draft, but this seems to be marginally greater than what some consider shoal draft. (yes/no??)
                                            > I would gladly buy the plans for a deeper dive, but like others have indicated here, I am frustrated by lack of response from FAX to PB&F. Are the plans from CSB the same in detail and quality?
                                            > Lastly (for now), are there any Micro owners in the Lake Norman NC or Smith Mountain Lake VA area? I'd love to see one in the flesh, or better yet, hitch a ride.
                                            > My use for the boat would be primarily on large inland lakes with occasional trip to coastal waters for long weekend to week long cruising. The boat would live in the (fresh) water year around moored at my dock.
                                            > Considering the age of the Micro design, these questions have probably been beat around endlessly, but there doesn't seem to be a good synopsis of such information that I can find. Thanks for your inputs and patience! more questions to follow :-)
                                            > Tom
                                            >
                                          • Bruce Hallman
                                            ... upside: 1) It is a big, small boat. You are free from all the headaches and expense of a big boat, while still having plenty of capability. 2) The Cat
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 6, 2010
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                                              On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Tom <tomoll@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Newbie here seriously considering a Micro build. I have read all I can find about the Micro, and although many comment favorably about the design, there seems to be little specific detail about what makes it good. I would like to hear what experienced Micro owners / sailors feel the virtues of the design are, and what the faults or shortcoming are.

                                              upside:

                                              1) It is a big, small boat. You are free from all the headaches and
                                              expense of a big boat, while still having plenty of capability.

                                              2) The Cat Yawl rig is simply better than a sloop when measured is
                                              cost and ease of handling.

                                              neutral:

                                              It is a cruiser not a racer. Good if you plan on cruising, bad if you
                                              plan on racing.

                                              downside:

                                              The 15'6" length has a theoretical limit of speed based on
                                              displacement hull waterline. Not really a problem if you are
                                              intending on having fun in a boat, but it would be a problem if your
                                              intention is to go somewhere fast.
                                            • prairiedog2332
                                              Photos of Micro LESTAT in the Bolger3 group with some of the interior. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Mar 6, 2010
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                                                Photos of Micro LESTAT in the Bolger3 group with some of the interior.

                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/

                                                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/photos/album/1984533041/pic/list?\
                                                mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc>

                                                Nels

                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Tom tomoll@... wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Newbie here seriously considering a Micro build. I have read all I
                                                can find about the Micro, and although many comment favorably about the
                                                design, there seems to be little specific detail about what makes it
                                                good. I would like to hear what experienced Micro owners / sailors feel
                                                the virtues of the design are, and what the faults or shortcoming are.
                                                >
                                                > upside:
                                                >
                                                > 1) It is a big, small boat. You are free from all the headaches and
                                                > expense of a big boat, while still having plenty of capability.
                                                >
                                                > 2) The Cat Yawl rig is simply better than a sloop when measured is
                                                > cost and ease of handling.
                                                >
                                                > neutral:
                                                >
                                                > It is a cruiser not a racer. Good if you plan on cruising, bad if you
                                                > plan on racing.
                                                >
                                                > downside:
                                                >
                                                > The 15'6" length has a theoretical limit of speed based on
                                                > displacement hull waterline. Not really a problem if you are
                                                > intending on having fun in a boat, but it would be a problem if your
                                                > intention is to go somewhere fast.
                                                >
                                              • Adirondack Goodboat
                                                Some things about the Micro that may not have been mentioned -- It is very seakindly, comfortable and well-behaved in seas. Some comparison studies have been
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Mar 7, 2010
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                                                  Some things about the Micro that may not have been mentioned -- It is very seakindly, comfortable and well-behaved in seas. Some comparison studies have been done, I wish I could remember where, of various boats on factors contributing to comfort at sea, and Micro comes off wonderfully in these comparisons. She is an extremely easy and comfortable boat in use, I find. My family and I have enjoyed our Micro more than our Drascombe Luggers, our Dovekie, our two Birdwatchers. The only boat I've had that I think we'd have liked even more, though it's overlarge for our usual sailing, is the Whalewatcher.
                                                  Micro is very stiff in puffs and very forgiving and calming. Some boats can rattle you. The famously seaworthy Drascombe Lugger can go op on its side and take on water over the rail with surprising suddenness; not so, Micro.
                                                  The boat as designed is very comfortable to sleep and read in but for cruising you need to invent some practices and perhaps install some features to suit. I've done little in that way in mine, have just got along camping in it loosely, filling the space under the cockpit side to side to keep things in place. It's very rare that you'd heel more than 15 or 20 degrees in a Micro.
                                                  You can practically beach the boat and step out on dry land over the bow, if the bottom doesn't shelve up too gradually. It's shoal enough for most anything. Cedar Key, in Florida, wouldn't be such good cruising ground for Micro as for a leeboard or centerboard boat because a lot of that water can suddenly be extremely thin. But everywhere else I've sailed the ballast keel would not be much of a penalty, and the open cabin's worth a lot. By the way, if your trailer has a drop axle as mine does, the keel doesn't keep the boat high on the trailer, and you can launch without getting your car's tires wet.
                                                      You need only a small car to haul Micro. Mine is an older Mercedes wagon, V6. That's my limit for haulers and keeps me to reasonable-size boats. Still it hauled the 29 foot Whalewatcher to Annapolis, on a single axle trailer. But I don't want to start up that discussion of tow vehicles again.
                                                   
                                                  What else. I sailed Micro 42 miles at 6+ knots on a single reach across the eastern end of Lake Ontario last summer and the next day overtook and passed a 30+ foot Toronto yawl with a big genoa and a mizzen staysail in 8 mph winds going down the St. Lawrence to Clayton. So I am content with Micro's speed. Not with her windward work in light airs, nor windward in very strong breezes; in those conditions she makes too much leeway; but she's fine in everything in between and she's very convenient to motor when needed. All in all she's a sweetie.
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----  .
                                                  From: Tom
                                                  Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 9:09 PM
                                                  Subject: [bolger] Micro Questions

                                                   

                                                  Newbie here seriously considering a Micro build. I have read all I can find about the Micro, and although many comment favorably about the design, there seems to be little specific detail about what makes it good. I would like to hear what experienced Micro owners / sailors feel the virtues of the design are, and what the faults or shortcoming are.
                                                  Although it is described as a cruiser, I can't find many good pictures of the interior, and don't see any that appear to be set up for cruising for longer than a day sail. Curious - Why?
                                                  Is one advised not to beach a Micro? I like shoal draft, but this seems to be marginally greater than what some consider shoal draft. (yes/no??)
                                                  I would gladly buy the plans for a deeper dive, but like others have indicated here, I am frustrated by lack of response from FAX to PB&F. Are the plans from CSB the same in detail and quality?
                                                  Lastly (for now), are there any Micro owners in the Lake Norman NC or Smith Mountain Lake VA area? I'd love to see one in the flesh, or better yet, hitch a ride.
                                                  My use for the boat would be primarily on large inland lakes with occasional trip to coastal waters for long weekend to week long cruising. The boat would live in the (fresh) water year around moored at my dock.
                                                  Considering the age of the Micro design, these questions have probably been beat around endlessly, but there doesn't seem to be a good synopsis of such information that I can find. Thanks for your inputs and patience! more questions to follow :-)
                                                  Tom

                                                • Bruce Hallman
                                                  ... I will ditto that. There are certain conditions where the Micro will put to shame boats that cost 100x the price. Especially in reaching or running
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Mar 7, 2010
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                                                    > the next day overtook and passed a 30+ foot Toronto yawl with a big genoa and a mizzen staysail

                                                    I will ditto that. There are certain conditions where the Micro will
                                                    put to shame boats that cost 100x the price. Especially in reaching
                                                    or running situations. I recall casually sailing on a reach across
                                                    the San Francisco waterfront sitting in my socks with my feet up warm
                                                    and cozy drinking a cup of tea, and watching the crew of a 30+ foot
                                                    Beneteau sloop dressed in foul weather gear go into panic mode
                                                    tweaking their sails, spinnaker pole, and more to avoid being passed
                                                    by a boxy looking backyard built 16 footer (when my Micro cost about
                                                    as much as one of their deck winches).
                                                  • daschultz2000
                                                    Great word picture. Great fun.
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Mar 8, 2010
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                                                      Great word picture. Great fun.

                                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >...watching the crew of a 30+ foot Beneteau sloop dressed in foul weather gear go into panic mode tweaking their sails, spinnaker pole, and more to avoid being passed...(when my Micro cost about
                                                      > as much as one of their deck winches).
                                                      >
                                                    • Tom
                                                      Thanks to all who offered information and suggestions about the Micro - it is all very helpful in making a decision to build one. The tips on where to find
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Mar 12, 2010
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                                                        Thanks to all who offered information and suggestions about the Micro - it is all very helpful in making a decision to build one. The tips on where to find additional pictures were also appreciated. It sounds like a great all around boat, suitable for my purposes. I'm looking for something that is comfortable to sail (my wife is not wild about sailing), and does not require constant gymnastics. If I want to go fast, I have other means of doing so. I would definitely like to outfit one with features to make a week long cruise possible. Now if I could only obtain a set of plans. I have a 30' X 40' shop just waiting for such a project, but at my age, I need to get started if I'm going to get it wet. Thanks again all.
                                                        Tom
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